For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[darklord1967]

Darklord, you seem so intent on proving that Kenobi was a liar that you're missing the point and purpose of his falsehood (in-universe). Is a parent a reprehensible liar who tells his children that Santa Claus brought them their Christmas presents?

I would say that lying to anyone un-necessarily IS reprehensible... especially when the victims are children who look to adults for guidance and truth.


Some might say, (myself included) that the Santa Claus legend is a completely unacceptable and un-necessary LIE inflicted upon children. I don't have a problem with Santa Claus as a cute Christmas story. What I have a problem with is falsely presenting that story to children as if it were real.

There are plenty of other Christmas and holiday fantasies (Frosty the Snowman, Ebeneezer Scrooge, The Grinch Who Stole Christmas, etc.) that add magic and fun to the holidays for children without LYING to them!

Kids know that Frosty The Snowman is only a fun Christmas story, for example.

How about adoptive parents who hide the truth of their child's birth until he's old enough to carry the burden?

"Burden"? It seems to me that if a child is living in a loving home with adoptive parents that want him, provide for his emotional, psychological, spiritual, and material needs, then where is the "burden" of being an adopted child?

Very young children only care about being loved, wanted and provided for adequately. It ultimately does NOT matter to them if it is biological or adoptive parents in this role.

As far as I can see, the "burden" which you refer to is usually created un-necessarily by adults who decide to LIE to their adoptive child about his / her true parentage all their life. Naturally, when the truth is finally revealed years later, it is usually a shock for the (now adult) child, and resentment at being lied to un-necessarily results. (More on this later regarding Luke)

The "burden" is usually created in the minds of apprehensive adults who selfishly do not wish to have a conversation that they will find uncomfortable.

I contrast all of this against adoptive parents who raise their children with honesty from the very beginning, and tell them up front that they are adopted. The child is raised with no burden. There is no shock later in life. There are no resentments (at least not about being lied to regarding parentage).

Children and young people are FAR tougher than most adults give them credit for. In their zeal to "protect" children from the "burdens" of the world some parents make the mistake of coddling, insulating, and lying to their kids un-necessarily, and eventually they create completely dysfunctional adults with poor social, self-sustaining, and problem-solving skills.

I see it every day.

Sometimes a lie is harmless; sometimes it's a necessity.

Agreed. However in the case of Obi-Wan Kenobi's lie to Luke about his father being "murdered" by Darth Vader, I am of the opinion that it was neither harmless nor necessary.

Luke Skywalker was a young, naive farmboy who was only just learning about a larger world that included the Force and the reasons for the struggle between the Rebellion and the Empire.

Maybe so. But he was an adult, and he was not fragile. Luke hearing the truth (at that point) would not have been the horrible, traumatic thing that Kenobi defenders suggest that it would have been.

If Kenobi had told Luke the truth -- that his biological father was a Sith lord who served a genocidal tyrant -- it's probable and likely that Luke would have questioned himself -- "Am I also evil at heart?" -- when what the Galaxy needed at that time was a hero, confident in his own goodness and heroism.

Well... that's certainly one (jedi-centric) way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it is, if Kenobi had told Luke the truth-- if he had said that Anakin was a heroic jedi that the council (and Kenobi himself) had unfairly alienated and isolated -- if he had said that due to Anakin's own resulting anger, fears and disillusionment, he tragically fell to the Dark Side of the force and is now living under its spell as another individual-- if he had said these things, it's likely that Luke would have been saddened to hear of his father's fate, but would have had no reason to doubt himself since his own experiences are different from his father's. He may, in fact, have been galvanized to prove that he was very different from his father, and would not suffer his same fate.

During Luke's trench run on the Death Star, would Luke have had the peace of mind, the Zen state required to give himself over to the Force, if he had known that his own father was a despicable murderer? I say not -- he would have been plagued by doubts, consumed by questions of his own worth as a hero and wielder of the Force.

I think those doubts would only have plagued Luke, IF he not been given the guidance to understand that Anakin's fate was mostly his own choice.

The only reasoning that I can see for NOT telling Luke the truth about his father is that once Kenobi admits that he was partially responsible for Anakin's horrible disillusionment, the next question for Luke would naturally become "Then why should I trust YOU to guide ME now? How do I know you won't lead me down my father's same mistaken path?"

The success of the Rebellion and the fate of the Galaxy rested in Luke's hands, and Kenobi knew it. He was wholly justified in keeping the truth from Luke.

Kenobi's belief in Luke as the hope of the Galaxy and the Rebellion is all the more reason to have been honest with him up front.

By lying to him the way he did, Obi-Wan risked Luke finding out the truth in a far more traumatic way (Which he did during the duel with Vader on Cloud City).

Kenobi also risked potentially placing Luke in a position to doubt himself at a far more critical moment (like during the life and death struggle with Vader).

Furthermore, the success of the Rebellion and the fate of the Galaxy only rested in Luke's hands from Yoda and Obi-Wan's point of view. It's reasonable to assume that there were many virtuous Force-strong individuals throughout the galaxy that could have filled Luke's role.

Yoda, on his deathbed, accuses Luke of running away from his training before he was ready for the burden of his true paternity; Luke, to his credit, apologizes. This amounts to an admission that he was not yet ready to know the truth.

Uh, no. That amounted to no such thing. Luke NEVER admitted, felt, or even inferred that he was not ready to know the truth as a young Farmboy back on Tatooine.

In fact, quite the contrary:

Luke only apologized to Yoda for not listening to him and leaving Dagobah prematurely to face Vader before his training was complete.

Luke was also apologizing to Yoda for initially focusing his righteous anger upon the dying little gnome (Re: "Unfortunate that I know the truth?!"), rather than where it belonged... on Obi-Wan Kenobi who was the one who lied to him in the first place.

Of course, it is shortly AFTER Yoda's death that Luke confronts the Force sprit of Kenobi for his un-necessary lie.

Luke was still resentful, and still accusatory (Re: "Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me. You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father?)

Say what you will about Kenobi's character, accusing him of all manner of misdeeds

I did not accuse Kenobi of anything he did not do . His "misdeeds" are a matter of Saga fact.

while bewlideringly elevating Anakin, an incipient Sith Lord, to the status of "model Jedi".

I was clear that Anakin's choice to embrace the Dark Side of the Force and slaughter of children was a vile, selfish, and immoral one. But I do feel that his heroism, loyalty, bravery, and skill (prior to his fall) are also a matter of Saga fact.

The only thing "bewildering" to ME about Anakin's status as a "model jedi" and hero (pre-dark-side fall) is how many jedi failed (or chose not) to see it while the Republic... indeed the galaxy at large hailed him as such.

At the end of the day, Kenobi's story of Vader vs. Anakin was a necessary untruth, designed to protect a young hero from the burden of knowledge that would have undone his burgeoning confidence and sense of worth.

At the end of the day, Kenobi's story of Vader "murdering" Anakin was an un-necessary untruth selfishly and vainly designed to shield a young hero from the knowledge that Kenobi's own past mistakes contributed to Anakin's terrible fate... and that those mistakes might very well be repeated again by this very fallible human being.

[huedell]

darklord---I have to disagree with your feelings about Ani/Obi

Anakin was a stupid, selfish, hypersensitive, reckless YOUNG Jedi---

TOO young and too powerful and too uncontrollable for the Jedi
to give Anakin any of the freeedoms or credit that you may think
he deserved.

From the start, the Jedi Council thought Anakin was "trouble" and they
were dead on---pun intended....but they saw how determined Qui Gon was...and...oh well...there goes the galaxy...no WONDER Qui Gon was the first Jedi to break the "death barrier"----his GUILT must have been unbearable

And, if you remember...Obi Wan wasn't too comfy with Qui Gon's decision
to train Anakin either...but, again, wanted to honor Qui Gon---his master
and friend. (Oh well...there goes the galaxy---again and not because
Obi Wan was a bad teacher---but because Anakin was WEAK-MINDED
and SELFISH)

Obi Wan "lied" to Luke---but I would have done the same thing...manipulated
Luke for as long as I could to use him to defeat the Sith.

Are you kidding me?

Look at what Palpatine and Anakin wrought in EPISODE THREE alone.

All bets are off...nail those crumby Sith by any means necessary!

[darklord1967]

darklord---I have to disagree with your feelings about Ani/Obi

Yes... well... we've been down THAT road before, haven't we?

I respect your opinion Huedell. I really do.

But don't you think it would strengthen your viewpoint, (and my understanding of it) if you provided actual examples from the films to support your position?

In an effort to avoid hurling mere opinions around in a vacuum during this debate, I have supported my own position with moments from the films.

I will continue to do so as I address each of your opposing opinions individually:

Anakin was a stupid, selfish, hypersensitive, reckless YOUNG Jedi---

YOUNG: I thought youth was a pre-requisite for jedi training. In fact Jedi were typically trained from infancy. “Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.”, said Yoda. How is YOUTH a deal-breaker for being respected and honored as a loyal Jedi Knight?

Years later, when Luke came to Dagobah for Jedi training, Yoda dismissed him as "... too old to become a Jedi..." Luke was approximately Anakin's (Episode III) age at the time.


RECKLESS: Was Anakin reckless at times? Yes he was. But let me ask you, how does this disqualify his heroism or worthiness as a Jedi Knight?

The dangerous missions that he was often called upon to participate in (coupled with his natural passionate tendencies) led him to be reckless at times. That’s true.

But he was a warrior in the service of galactic peace-keepers, and then later leading armies of clones into battle to save the Republic. Taking dangerous chances were often the ONLY option available to him to get the job done.

Furthermore, some of Anakin’s most reckless moments happened while he was in the service of others (Re: Taking on the far more skilled and experienced swordsman Count Dooku, and loosing an arm in the bargain while defending an incapacitated Obi-Wan Kenobi. OR Crash-landing half of a flaming Separatist Cruiser while rescuing a kidnapped Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.)

Yeah, Anakin was reckless. But so was (the considerably older) Obi-Wan Kenobi, and years later, so was Anakin’s son Luke (as Yoda pointed out).

But Obi-Wan and Luke’s youthful recklessness NEVER brought their heroism and worthiness to be Jedi into question.


HYPERSENSITIVE: Was Anakin’s anger at being used as a Jedi pawn to spy on his mentor and friend the Supreme Chancellor "hypersensitive"?

Well, would it not bother you to betray someone who treated you well by spying on them on behalf of someone else? Even more importantly, would it not bother you to even be placed in that position by people who openly don’t even trust you to do the simplest thing by yourself?

Or how about Anakin’s anger over the insulting appointment to the Jedi Council without being granted the rank, rights and privilieges of a Jedi Master?

Was that anger “hypersensitive”?

How would YOU feel being granted a “promotion” at your job with the burden of increased responsibilities, but with NO elevated position title, and NO raise in pay?

How about Kenobi’s constant sarcasm, belittlement, and over-criticism (in EP II). Was Anakin’s reaction to that “hypersensitive” ?

Do YOU remember what it was like to be 19 years old, awkward and unsure of yourself, and to have your parents criticize your every move and decision?
I do. It was damned infuriating!

Anakin’s reaction to that kind of constant put-down wasn’t what I’d call “hyper-sensitive”. I’d call it human.

And what of Anakin’s “hypersensitivity” to the overly limiting restraints placed on his natural abilities?

Do you not think that would be incredibly frustrating to a young man?

Think of something that you are very good at. Now imagine an overly-controlling authority figure limiting you from doing that thing while belittling you every step of the way.

Would YOUR anger over such a thing be “hypersensitive”?

Anakin had been having premonitions of his mother’s murder for quite some time. He began having them quite possibly BEFORE she was kidnapped by Tusken Raiders on Tatooine.
We know that he most certainly had the ability (if he had been allowed) to save her and prevent her brutal death.

But Anakin’s “mistake” was that he likely asked Kenobi or the Jedi Council to visit Tatooine and check on his mother, or possibly even just to send a communication to Watto to confirm her safety.

If he did, he was likely hit with “A jedi must operate in the service of others and not himself… blah, blah, blah.”

Of course, what did that ultimately get him? What it got him was his mother, battered, bleeding, and broken living just long enough for her to die in his arms.

Was Anakin any angrier about this than he had a right to be? I don’t think so.

How would YOU feel if you had the super-natural ability to foresee the future? You envision something terrible happening to a loved one that YOU can help avert, but you are PREVENTED from doing so.

I know I would be livid!

I give Anakin a lot of credit here. Despite his justified reasons for being angry at these overly-limiting Jedi rules and the open mistrust and hostility thrown at him, he still continued to serve the order loyally and bravely.

Indeed, even after his mother’s death, his bravest days by the Jedi’s side were still ahead of him.


SELFISH: I do NOT debate that Anakin’s choice to become the Sith Lord Darth Vader was a selfish choice. It clearly was. I further accept that his actions as Vader were reprehensible.

But prior to his Dark-Side fall, exactly how was Anakin “selfish”?

Was it when he saved Kenobi’s butt countless times?

Or maybe it was when he wanted to exceed the weak mandate of the Jedi Council to Protect Senator Amidala, and instead also find out the identity of her attempted assassin.

Perhaps you refer to the “selfishness” of Anakin “…stretching out with his human feelings…” (as Kenobi encouraged Luke to do), and actually falling in love with a beautiful woman. The horror!

I know. I know. The “selfishness” you refer to is Anakin’s initial agreement to painfully DISREGARD his love for Padme for the sake of each of their positions, and to avoid living a life of secrecy. It was only after they were both about to die in the arena at Geonisis, and Padme declared her love for him, that Anakin decided to openly love Padme again.

No, I bet the “selfishness” you point to is Anakin grudgingly agreeing to do his Jedi duty and chasing down the fleeing Count Dooku even after his beloved Padme fell out of the Republic dropship while in-flight, and was possibly injured or even killed by the fall.

Of course, there was that “selfish” piece of business by Anakin where he lost an arm fighting Count Dooku while in defense of an injured Obi-Wan.

Hmmm…

Let’s try Episode III. There are PLENTY of examples of Anakin’s “selfishness” there!

Let’s see now:

During that opening space battle, that “selfish” Anakin actually wanted to circle back and help some of those Republic Clone pilots that had gotten into major trouble fighting buzz droids and Separatist Droid fighters! The nerve!

Then there was that “selfish” single-handed rescue of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the vanquishing of Count Dooku, and the rescue of an unconscious Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Maybe you mean Anakin’s “selfish” desire to prevent the realizations of his premonitions of horrible screams and agonized death of his pregnant wife while giving birth to their child? That monster!

Or how about Anakin’s "selfish" offer to accompany Obi-Wan Kenobi to Utapau to help him in his confrontation against General Grievous?

Of course we can’t forget Anakin’s “selfish” apology to Obi-Wan Kenobi for his expressions of anger and frustration over the mistrust of the Jedi Council.

Then there’s Anakin’s biggest act of “selfishness”: Doing his jedi duty of threatening his friend and mentor of many years, The Supreme Chancellor, at sword point, and reporting him as an admitted Sith Lord, even though he believes that the knowledge to save Padme might be lost in the process.


Anakin “selfish” you say? I don’t think so. Darth Vader most certainly. But not Anakin. Not as far as I can see.


STUPID:

This one I really disagree with.

Anakin’s choice to become Darth Vader was vile and vicious and misguided, to be sure

But prior to that, he was politically-contientious and very articulate (except when trying to woo pretty girls, of course)

He was a decent, sober, smart, and very clever young man... especially for someone his age.

He was highly intelligent (as a ground combat tactician, and as a pilot, and as a mechanically-inclined individual).

Even Obi-Wan would agree with that.

Prior to his departure for Utapau to confront General Grievous, General Obi-Wan Kenobi (in one of his rare moments of genuine warmth toward Anakin) said: “You are strong and wise Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be.”

19 years later old Ben Kenobi told Luke Skywalker that his father Anakin was “… the best starpilot in the galaxy… and a cunning warrior.”

TOO young and too powerful and too uncontrollable for the Jedi
to give Anakin any of the freeedoms or credit that you may think
he deserved.

So according to you, Anakin’s youth and naturally strong Force abilities disqualified him from even so much as the courtesy of decency and respect from his fellow Jedi knights?

Is THAT the jedi way? Is THAT a good example of Jedi “…compassion for others…” to demonstrate open hostility and suspicion for a 9 year old little boy whose only “crime” was being very young and unusually strong in The Force?

As for “freedoms”, although Anakin (as a Jedi Knight) may have been young, he was also an adult. He had the same inherent right to self-determination as any other Jedi. Anything less, and he was not a brother, but a slave once again.

From the start, the Jedi Council thought Anakin was "trouble" and they
were dead on---pun intended....

I maintain that their premonitions of Anakin as “dangerous” and as possible “trouble” were nothing more than their own short-sightedness manifest years later in the form of self-fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, since they saw him as dangerous, they mistrusted, isolated, and insulted him with open hostility. Years worth of that kind of treatment angered him enough to finally betray them at the last possible moment, making him the “dangerous” individual they foresaw.

This is the same self-fulfilling prophecy as Anakin’s Dark Side turn. THAT was motivated by the fear of losing Padme to pre-mature death. So in his drive to PREVENT her death from happening, he strikes a vile deal with the Devil to gain the power to stop it from happening. In the process he breaks Padme’s heart, and causes the very same death he was trying to prevent.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Obi Wan "lied" to Luke---but I would have done the same thing...manipulated
Luke for as long as I could to use him to defeat the Sith.

And you would have risked the resentment (and possibly even the betrayal) of your greatest ally when he inevitably discovered your lie. You would have risked loosing your “only hope” to defeat the Sith if he ever discovered your manipulation.

All bets are off...nail those crumby Sith by any means necessary!

Well as vile as Palpatine is, I have to agree with you there.

But as for Anakin, let’s not forget that Anakin did re-emerge to destroy the Emperor and save his son’s life, thereby fulfilling the ancient prophecy as the Chosen One.

The main lesson of the STAR WARS saga is that Darth Vader is NOT some horrible demon. He was a loving, caring young man who was tricked and manipulated into making a terrible, vile choice. Once he did, he was under the spell of it’s influence, and functioning as its slave for many years.

Anakin cannot be so casually written off as a vile monster to be destroyed.

Luke didn’t, and it saved his life and the future of the entire galaxy.

[MarkStalcup]

As an aside...real quick ways the prequels could have been better.

Have Jar Jar and the rest of the Gungans speak their own language...clicks, barks, something...none of this "Eesa people gonna die?" Talk like Chewie and Greedo, and most of the annoyance factor goes away.

Haley Joel Osment as Anakin as a kid. Or better yet, stop using "little kid" as shorthand for innocent.

Real intimidating battle droids. Heck, they could have used an army of IG-88s. Those white skinny robots were a joke, and lousy figures to boot. "Roger? Roger?" Yeah, right...

Less about trade routes and tariffs and yada yada yada. More action. Simplify, simplify, simplify.

Not everybody has to be related to/know everybody else. Chewie did not need to know Yoda. Boba Fett and Jango did not need to be the basis for the Stormtroopers. Anakin did not need to build C3P0. And why does a kid need a protocol droid when it would have made more sense for him to own R2D2?

M

[Seeker]

I agree about the Battle droids. The Cylon centurians from the new Battlestar galactica were a hell of alot more intimidating. Something like that would have been awesome.

The movie droids are so thin the toys of them can hardly stand on their own.


Jarr Jarr speaking his own language. Makes perfect sense. The Cantina scene, Greedo, Chewie, Droid speak all worked. Why give us that Poodoo?

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

I Thought JarJar Wanks was speaking his own darn language. . . .I sure couldn't understand a single thing he said. That really ruined the movie for me amongst 1800 other things.
I could understand Christian Bale in Dark Knight, far better than I could JarJar (That is for you DarkKnight1967).

[huedell]

YOUNG: I thought youth was a pre-requisite for jedi training. In fact Jedi were typically trained from infancy. “Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.”, said Yoda. How is YOUTH a deal-breaker for being respected and honored as a loyal Jedi Knight?

Years later, when Luke came to Dagobah for Jedi training, Yoda dismissed him as "... too old to become a Jedi..." Luke was approximately Anakin's (Episode III) age at the time.

You are totally, totally missing the point of the negative aspect of Ani being
too young here^^^

The "training" examples you're bringing up have nothing to do with...

Anakin was TOO YOUNG to have any of that wisdom...that he was
so sorely lacking.

Anakin was too young and therefore lacked any sort of wisdom resembling
the kind that could or would save him from himself.

RECKLESS: Was Anakin reckless at times? Yes he was. But let me ask you,
how does this disqualify his heroism or worthiness as a Jedi Knight?

The dangerous missions that he was often called upon to participate in
(coupled with his natural passionate tendencies) led him to be reckless at times. That’s true.

But he was a warrior in the service of galactic peace-keepers, and then later leading armies of clones into battle to save the Republic. Taking dangerous chances were often the ONLY option available to him to get the job done.

Furthermore, some of Anakin’s most reckless moments happened while he was in the service of others (Re: Taking on the far more skilled and experienced swordsman Count Dooku, and loosing an arm in the bargain while defending an incapacitated Obi-Wan Kenobi. OR Crash-landing half of a flaming Separatist Cruiser while rescuing a kidnapped Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.)

Yeah, Anakin was reckless. But so was (the considerably older) Obi-Wan Kenobi, and years later, so was Anakin’s son Luke (as Yoda pointed out).

But Obi-Wan and Luke’s youthful recklessness NEVER brought their heroism and worthiness to be Jedi into question

Anakin's recklessness was a prime example of how angry and vengeful
Anakin was...Obi wasn't like that. Anakin was a short-tempered jerk...
and to answer your question, yes, that DOES make him less heroic
and less worthy of being a Jedi.

Well, would it not bother you to betray someone who treated you well by spying on them on behalf of someone else? Even more importantly, would it not bother you to even be placed in that position by people who openly don’t even trust you to do the simplest thing by yourself?

Or how about Anakin’s anger over the insulting appointment to the Jedi Council without being granted the rank, rights and privilieges of a Jedi Master?

Was that anger “hypersensitive”?

How would YOU feel being granted a “promotion” at your job with the burden of increased responsibilities, but with NO elevated position title, and NO raise in pay?

How about Kenobi’s constant sarcasm, belittlement, and over-criticism (in EP II). Was Anakin’s reaction to that “hypersensitive” ?

Do YOU remember what it was like to be 19 years old, awkward and unsure of yourself, and to have your parents criticize your every move and decision?
I do. It was damned infuriating!

Anakin’s reaction to that kind of constant put-down wasn’t what I’d call “hyper-sensitive”. I’d call it human.

And those "human" things were what the Jedi were trying to avoid...they
were supposed to be powerful enough emotionally to rise above the
weaker parts of "being human"....that's like the whole point of
dedicating yourself to the Jedi...(at a YOUNG AGE, I might add)

Anakin wass indeed (to refer to your 19 y.o. reference) acting like a
stupid typical, rash 19 year old....jeez...I'm not going to give a JEDI slack
for that.

Nor will I give Ani slack for feeling betrayed regarding the Jedi's view
towards him and Palpatine.....Anakin was a chump for being seduced
by Palpitine...if Anakin had any sense, he would've trusted the Jedi over
what was essentially pure evil manipulating him.

Maybe you mean Anakin’s “selfish” desire to prevent the realizations of his premonitions of horrible screams and agonized death of his pregnant
wife while giving birth to their child? That monster!

Sorry...while may not exactly be being a "monster" for behaving like this....
he iS being selfish---and very un-Jedi-like----he shouldn't have even had that kind of relationship with Padme to BEGIN WITH.

(Padme even fought him on freaking out over her and his dark premonitions
about her death)

All those other examples you gave of Ani being "unselfish" (many of them debatable about his true intentions for acting that way) are completely
nullified by that Padme-stuff, because THAT is what screwed everything in the
galaxy up and shouldn't have went down in the FIRST place if Ani wasn't
such a selfish sap.


regarding your reply to Anaking being "stupid"

But prior to that, he was politically-contientious and very articulate (except when trying to woo pretty girls, of course)

He was a decent, sober, smart, and very clever young man... especially for
someone his age.

He was highly intelligent (as a ground combat tactician, and as a pilot, and
as a mechanically-inclined individual).

Even Obi-Wan would agree with that.

I don't buy ANY of that^^^^. Anakin was basically "stupid"

Anakin was quite TECHNICALLY proficient, but he had VERY LITTLE
"street smarts".

Any compliment Obi gave Ani regarding his "wisdom" in ROTS was
more based in calming the slowly unravelling friendship and person that
Anakin was.....boith were going to mush at that point...and you know Obi--
-he'll "lie" about anything to keep things together

So according to you, Anakin’s youth and naturally strong Force
abilities disqualified him from even so much as the courtesy of decency and
respect from his fellow Jedi knights?

I think our definitions of "respect & decency" vary on that^^^.
That's a bit too vague to clock. But I do have to say that no Jedi should get special treatment...and I think by having certain overly reaching goals and expectations, Anakin was guilty of wanting too much.

Lucas even had him SAY that "I know I want more and I shouldn't"
or something like that when Ani was talking to Padme.

He wasn't a "slave" to the Jedi by being subserviant---he was BEING a Jedi.
Jedi don't get to be and do whatever the heck they want.

I have to admit that this:

In other words, since they saw him as dangerous, they mistrusted, isolated, and insulted him with open hostility. Years worth of that kind of treatment angered him enough to finally betray them at the last possible moment, making him the “dangerous” individual they foresaw.

....is quite an interesting point....and I may agree with you on that
100% depending on my mood. Very insightful...kudos.

And you would have risked the resentment (and possibly even the
betrayal) of your greatest ally when he inevitably discovered your lie. You
would have risked loosing your “only hope” to defeat the Sith if he ever
discovered your manipulation.

Yes...a risk both Obi and I are/were willing to take.

The main lesson of the STAR WARS saga is that Darth Vader is NOT
some horrible demon. He was a loving, caring young man who was tricked and
manipulated into making a terrible, vile choice. Once he did, he was under
the spell of it’s influence, and functioning as its slave for many years.

And that happpened because he was ann unusually weak person/Jedi---
sorry, but I have no sympathy for this.

Still...this is a nice point....

Anakin cannot be so casually written off as a vile monster to be
destroyed.
Luke didn’t, and it saved his life and the future of the entire galaxy.

...so I'll give you that

[huedell]

darklord1967 wrote:

I respect your opinion Huedell. I really do.

But don't you think it would strengthen your viewpoint, (and my understanding of it) if you provided actual examples from the films to support your position?

I hope my above rebuttals to your posts help show my view more.

I respect you a lot as well...and please excuse me if I didn't give enough
moments from the films as examples---it was hard enough just to address many of your points on Ani/Obi/the Jedi and how I felt about them...

Whew!
I can't believe I got involved in this....I have work to do here

Some nice points though darklord ---

May The Force Be With Ya-----

[darklord1967]

Anakin was too young and therefore lacked any sort of wisdom resembling the kind that could or would save him from himself.

Huedell. It's somewhat surprising to me that you find Anakin so lacking in wisdom. As someone who seems very supportive of Jedi doctrine, rules, and viewpoints, you seem to be ignoring how vehemently Anakin defended those very things to others (Re: "The Sith think inwardly only of themselves. Jedi are selfless. They care only about others").

You seem equally willing to ignore the fact that he vehemently defended those Jedi doctrines and rules despite the fact that they were used like a weapon to view and treat him negatively from the very beginning.

Furthermore, you seem to give no credit even for Anakin's extraordinary conscientiousness in the way he struggled against his own human tendencies versus stated Jedi doctrine. (Re: "Something's happening to me. I feel lost. I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, but I know I shouldn't")

Anakin's agony and grief over his ferocious slaughter of the Tusken Raider tribe (despite their murder of his mother) was another struggle to rectify what he saw as his shortcomings toward being a "true Jedi".

PADME: To be angry is to be human.

ANAKIN: I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this.


Look, all I'm asking you to consider is that this was NOT just some young brash blockhead who charged into things like a bull in a china shop. This was NOT just some callous looser who said, "Screw you Jedi! I'm gonna do my own thing!" More often than not, he dutifully obeyed Jedi principles and rules.

He CONSTANTLY agonized and struggled over what the right thing to do was, and what the correct way to proceed for a JEDI was. He was far more thoughtful of these things than an ordinary 19 year old. And certainly far more thoughtful of them than you give him credit for.

Anakin's recklessness was a prime example of how angry and vengeful Anakin was...Obi wasn't like that. Anakin was a short-tempered jerk...and to answer your question, yes, that DOES make him less heroic and less worthy of being a Jedi.

Without a stated example from the film, this is one of those points that I simply cannot see. I do not see the connection between his anger at being rejected and mistrusted by the Jedi hierarchy and his occasional recklessness.

And those "human" things were what the Jedi were trying to avoid...they were supposed to be powerful enough emotionally to rise above the weaker parts of "being human"....that's like the whole point of dedicating yourself to the Jedi...(at a YOUNG AGE, I might add).

The “weaker points” of being human? You mean like the constant un-necessary LIES that Obi-Wan Kenobi tells? LIES that are motivated by his (very human) guilt, and vanity, and ego?

Those "weaker points"?

Jedi or not, Anakin was still HUMAN, and he was subject to the imperfections of being one. All of the human Jedi had their various personal character faults.

And you also forget that the Jedi Knights were a brotherhood that included virtually ALL the known species of the galaxy in their membership... not just humans. Humans comprised only one species among thousands of different species of Jedi.

I’m quite certain that the natural qualities, strengths and flaws of human Jedi Knights varied radically when compared against the countless species in the brotherhood.

I wonder if those other non-human jedi were also indoctrinated to behave contrary to their own nature by adopting a uniquely human viewpoint on what constitutes the definitions of heroism, selflessness, nobility, honor, and worthiness.

Nor will I give Ani slack for feeling betrayed regarding the Jedi's view towards him and Palpatine.....

So according to YOU, it is perfectly okay for the Jedi Knights to act on their own premonitions (Re: Anakin's "...clouded future...") by short-sightedly isolating him with mistrust, suspicion, and hostility... but it's NOT okay for Anakin to act on his premonitions of his beloved's agonized death by working to prevent it from happening.

Alright.

Anakin was a chump for being seduced by Palpitine...if Anakin had any sense, he would've trusted the Jedi over what was essentially pure evil manipulating him.

A “chump” you say. Really?


The Jedi Knights' overly-rigid and compassionless actions against Anakin ultimately helped doom them to becoming the hunted scavenger outlaws of the Galaxy… the very galaxy they served faithfully.

Who were the "chumps" then?

There are many instances in STAR WARS (and in the real world) when even the smartest people are deceived by someone older, more experienced, and shrewder than they, and with an underhanded agenda.

Does that make them “chumps”?

You can’t blame Anakin for being decieved.

He had no reason (at that point) to doubt the sincerity of (or to cast a suspicious eye upon) the motivations of an old man who was being kind and supportive of him.

Also, you act as if Palpatine came along just shortly before Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side and spun his web of manipulation, and effectively turned him within days.

This was NOT the case.

Palpatine patiently positioned himself as Anakin’s friend, advisor, and fatherly mentor FOR YEARS. The seduction didn't just happen over the events of Episode III. It began when Anakin was a little boy and continued on steadily, deliberately, and purposefully until he was an adult.

Anakin is no more of a “chump” for failing to see Palpatine as evil than the Jedi were for failing to do the same… until it was too late.

Their blind loyalty to Palpatine and his falsely manufactured war was what allowed them to be nearly wiped out forever.

Were they “chumps” because of their blindness?


Their stubborn devotion to Jedi doctrine and traditions (which you so vehemently defend) is what allowed them to continue to serve a man that they had suspicions about for years!

Was that not “stupid”? Were they not being “chumps”?

Would YOU blindly follow someone (or some idea) that you didn’t completely agree with without questioning it first?

I know I wouldn’t. I know Anakin didn’t.

You attack Anakin for not being a good, obedient, mindless soldier who does not question orders.

But the Jedi didn’t question the orders of their Commander-in-chief and look what it got them.

I ask again, who are the “chumps”?

Count Dooku told a captured / imprisoned Obi-Wan Kenobi every word of truth on Geonosis. (Re: “What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith? Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious. The viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord.”).

Every word the TRUTH. But Kenobi refused to believe him.

Was Kenobi a “chump”?

By your definition. Luke Skywalker was a “chump” for allowing Obi-Wan Kenobi to lie and manipulate him.

Does that make any sense?

If you have no reason to doubt or disbelieve someone’s word, why would you?

This applies whether it was Palpatine’s manipulations of Anakin, or whether it was Kenobi’s lies and manipulations of Luke.

You say Anakin should have just trusted the Jedi.

Well, Anakin DID trust the Jedi and their doctrines. He tried hard to defend and justify them even against his own contradictory human tendencies. And what he got for it (more often than not) was rejection and heartache and pain… like the death of his mother or hostility from Mace Windu.

Furthermore, he trusted the Jedi when he finally discovered the true identity of the Republic’s Sith Lord. He reported it. And the result of that action was (again) more open contempt and mistrust from Windu.

Sorry...while may not exactly be being a "monster" for behaving like this.... he iS being selfish---and very un-Jedi-like----he shouldn't have even had that kind of relationship with Padme to BEGIN WITH.

Why should he not have? Because the Jedi said so?

Well, the Jedi also said “Trust your feelings” “Stretch out with your feelings”. I guess falling in love doesn’t count, huh?

Anakin's powerful feelings and attachments to Padme Amidala began long BEFORE he became a Jedi Knight. He is HUMAN. You cannot just turn off emotions like that. The Jedi expectation that those feelings should and must be turned off in order to be a true Jedi knight were completely unreasonable, impractical, and un-necessary.

I believe that ANY group or organization that insists that it’s members disconnect positive attributes of human feelings (like the ability to fall in love) is a DEEPLY flawed group… especially if they supposedly are in the business of serving others.

Luke Skywalker instinctively understood this, and because of his own human passions, he was ultimately able to save his father and the Galaxy from the oppressive fist of Palpatine

(Padme even fought him on freaking out over her and his dark premonitions about her death)

She didn't fight him. She tried to calm his fears by assuring him that she would be alright. Padme innocently dismissed Anakin’s visions as “… just dreams…”, but she herself did not have the advantage of being able to have visions of future events. Anakin did. And what he saw was so horrific to him that it terrified him… as it would most anyone with this ability. Furthermore, Anakin understood (from past experience) that his terrible visions were glimpses of an actual coming future.

All those other examples you gave of Ani being "unselfish" (many of them debatable about his true intentions for acting that way)…

Well, I certainly don’t see any of my stated examples of Anakin’s selflessness as “debatable”.

But if you find them debatable then it’s up to you to point out why specifically. You choose not to do so, buddy.

… are completely nullified by that Padme-stuff, because THAT is what screwed everything in the galaxy up and shouldn't have went down in the FIRST place if Ani wasn't such a selfish sap.

Well, just call me "selfish" too. All I know is if I had an overwhelmingly powerful vision that my wife, children, or any of my loved ones were in mortal future danger, I would move mountains to prevent it from happening ! As I see it, THAT'S the decent thing to do.

Anakin was quite TECHNICALLY proficient, but he had VERY LITTLE "street smarts".

The average Jedi had no "street smarts" either. Certainly not enough "street smarts" to follow their own teachings and advice (Re: "trust your feelings") and recognize the monster that Palpatine was before it was too late.

No instead, the Jedi had just enough "street smarts" to serve as generals in Palpatine's war machine, and to allow themselves to be wiped-out slowly while "serving" him... even though THEIR FEELINGS and blatant external clues told them to be suspicious of him..

What's that line that is used in EVERY Star Wars film?: "I've got a bad feeling about this."

Well the Jedi had that "bad feeling" about Palpatine for a long time... and they did NOTHING about it. They just blindly served his whims and political / military ambitions while moving like sheep toward their own slaughter.

Not too bright.

I think our definitions of "respect & decency" vary on that. That's a bit too vague to clock.

I’ll say our definitions vary. But my definitions certainly are not vague at all. I think it’s decent and respectful to treat someone that way you would like to be treated. That is to say with kindness, fairness, and justice.

This means an occasional “please” and/ or "thank you".
This mean NOT being made to feel isolated
This means feeling like a brother within a family… or in the case of the Jedi, within a brotherhood.
This certainly does NOT mean being treated as an outcast over something you have NOT done.

Maybe its just me, but I think it is un-just, un-fair, indecent, and disrespectful to punish, humiliate, and be openly mistrustful and hostile toward someone for no other reason than a vague sense that they might be “dangerous” in the future.

This is what the Jedi did to Anakin… from the moment they met him, and FOR YEARS afterward.

And as I said before, the consequence of that isolation was that Anakin ultimately became angry, disillusioned, and dangerous.

I guess after a while, it becomes tough to recognize your friends when they don't treat you friendly.

But I do have to say that no Jedi should get special treatment...

.

I never suggested that Anakin should have gotten special treatment.

In fact, I agree with you that he should NOT have gotten special treatment.

However I do feel that he should have gotten the same considerations, responsibilities, and privileges of any Jedi who had demonstrated the qualities he had.

Instead, he was consistently penalized un-fairly... unlike other Jedi.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the Jedi Council disagreed with BOTH of us, Hud.

They clearly felt that Anakin should get “special treatment”. He was given the special hostility, disrespect, and mistrust that virtually NO OTHER JEDI had ever received from their brethren.

Congratulations Ani!

[huedell]

Couplea things....Anakin's THOUGHTS ...his MUSINGS on him self being
wrong---too selfish----too lustful for power----mean nothing to me.

I mean so WHAT if he felt guilty?

ACTIONS and NOT words or thoughts are what are important.

"Struggle schummgle"...Ani lost...and so did the galaxy....or at least all the
innocents Vader killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huedell
Anakin's recklessness was a prime example of how angry and vengeful Anakin was...Obi wasn't like that. Anakin was a short-tempered jerk...and to answer your question, yes, that DOES make him less heroic and less worthy of being a Jedi.

Without a stated example from the film, this is one of those points that I simply cannot see. I do not see the connection between his anger at being rejected and mistrusted by the Jedi hierarchy and his occasional recklessness.

C'mon...I don't REALLY have to spell out how Anakin's rash attack on Dooku
in Clones---his attack on the Sandpeople in Clones etc. etc. are all things
that Anakin would do and Obi Wan would not. Give me a break here.

So according to YOU, it is perfectly okay for the Jedi Knights to act
on their own premonitions (Re: Anakin's "...clouded future...") by short-
sightedly isolating him with mistrust, suspicion, and hostility... but it's NOT
okay for Anakin to act on his premonitions of his beloved's agonized death
by working to prevent it from happening.

Alright.

The Jedi had the universes best interests in mind...Anakin did not.

I could go and on like you did...but frankly I don't have time and it's
really that simple anyway.

Well, the Jedi also said “Trust your feelings” “Stretch out with your
feelings”. I guess falling in love doesn’t count, huh?

No...it DOESN"T count... ya nut
That's the POINT....you use the Force to help others...the galaxy...not
your own SELFISH SELF.

Anakin's powerful feelings and attachments to Padme Amidala began
long BEFORE he became a Jedi Knight. He is HUMAN. You cannot just turn off
emotions like that. The Jedi expectation that those feelings should and must
be turned off in order to be a true Jedi knight were completely unreasonable,
impractical, and un-necessary.

I believe that ANY group or organization that insists that it’s members disconnect positive attributes of human feelings (like the ability to fall in love) is a DEEPLY flawed group… especially if they supposedly are in the business of serving others.

Luke Skywalker instinctively understood this, and because of his own human passions, he was ultimately able to save his father and the Galaxy from the oppressive fist of Palpatine

This is where we differ. I believe in what the Jedis stood for... and you don't.

This debate is more or less over because of this.

Look, all I'm asking you to consider is that this was NOT just some
young brash blockhead who charged into things like a bull in a china shop.
This was NOT just some callous looser who said, "Screw you Jedi! I'm gonna
do my own thing!" More often than not, he dutifully obeyed Jedi principles
and rules.

With all respect....this is what I will NOT EVER do.

Anakin is exactly how you just described.

The moment he allowed his feelings for his chick to rip the galaxy apart at
the seams he betrayed any one with a modicum of class and decency
including me....and I would hope...any one else who viewed these movies.

Anakin lived and died a selfish, stupid excuse for a Jedi (he never should
have been trained in the first place)

Even taking Anakin's last "turn" into consideration...barely a "redemption"
----I'm surprised so many people look at it so "wonderfully"---yeah,
its sweet that he saved his son from the Emperor----but really more
poignantly it's more of the same selfish bull Anakin had been doing since he
slaughtered the Sandpeople for killing his mother....Anakin wasn't saving the
GALAXY by killing the Emperor (not in HIS mind anyway)-----he was actually
just saving Luke---HIS son---HIS wife/lover's son. Selfish and vengeful
right to the end---REVENGE against Palpatine for harming HIS son.

If Anakin was really anything near "moving mountains" (as you said you would do for your woman) he would have ran off with Padme in the start of Sith---
but, yeah, he was too stupid and selfish to take that option Padme suggested.

Obi-Wan on the other hand lived and died selflessly....and wouldn't be a "chump" falling in with Dooku no matter if Dooku was telling the truth or not--
Obi Wan KNEW Dooku was in league with the Sith---Dooku may have
been a willing chump---but Obi wan wasn't going to be....so that's why
he didn't go along with Dooku's (kinda) truth.

Obi Wan comitted Jedi suicide at the end of NEW HOPE selflessly SELFLESSLY---
yeah, I could write more...but I think I said enough.

So have you darklord1967....you don't approve of thew Jedi's code(s)
I do....and most of this debate can be simplified this way.

I said earlier that I respect your point of view of this...and I do, to a
point...but really after reading your multiple messages on this, I
have to say I disagree with you SO VERY wholeheartedly on your view of
the Jedi's decisions (and Obi's) vs Anakin's----that I feel this debate is
pretty pointless other than this nice chunk we went at so far.

I mean...maybe in person this would be worth it...but this typing...basically
the same stuff reworded over & over again is getting old.

[Seeker]

As much as I am for supporting some nosense threads this is a little much. So much effort put into justifying a fictional characters fictional motives is kind of a waste.

The truth was George Lucas only had a rough draft idea running around in his head. He was not working off a story that was completely plotted out like Lord of the Rings or Dune.

When he was offered a chance to make a movie he had to pick the best chunk of his epic idea. A stand alone bit of the story. He had NO idea at the time that the movie would take off and he could add the other installments.

To that end even though A New Hope was a stand alone story he had to tie up some story lines to make it a neat little bundle.

Could you imagine the complications if you added Vader was Lukes Dad, Liea was his sister to a New Hope? This alone would have needed a ton of explaining. He had to keep it to one movies length. That is the whole reason for the small throw away line Darklord is aggonizing about.

After the movie became a hit Lucas had the oppurtunity to expand the story. He did the best he could weaving the rest of the story into the concrete cannon he had created.

Now give this thread a rest and go save some whales or fix the economy or something.

[huedell]

Seeker----argue with me or darklord all you like----but to think we'd drop a
subject merely because you or someone else thought it was a waste is
thinking quite much of yourself.

And re: your theory about Lucas adding all that stuff out of new cloth
----after the success of New Hope----you seem to think pretty
"black and white" about it---I disagree----as much as it's possible
he added a "LOT" (whatever THAT quantity IS)---I'll never EVER
believe all those plot things were "totally" new....it just wouldn't
make sense.

"All the sudden" Lucas got THAT ambitious with his story weaving
that he TOTALLY added ALL those plotlines without kicking
around (at least SOME of) those ideas earlier???????.....nope.

[Vortigern99]

Man. I belong to a Star Wars discussion site (theforce.net) where we sit around debating this kind of stuff in depth all day long. But the novel-length posts in this thread outstrip just about anything over there! You guys, darklord and huedell, should come join the boards at TFN and post to your heart's content. Then instead of two guys going back and forth, we'll have 10 - 20 people weighing in with their (hopefully not as long-winded! ) opinions. MTFBWY.

[Seeker]

No he didnt add new stuff after the success of a new hope but he did have to scale a New Hope back to make a stand alone story. He has said this himself so it is not a theory. Thus he had to make the rest of the story fit.
The same issue he had with the prequels.


Like I said before star wars was a general idea in his head. Major themes and characters. The small stuff was filled in as the movies progressed unlike a several novel epic like Dune and LOTR in which everything was written out first.

But another thing is sometimes the Director does add thing he feels are relevant to the story but get cut over simple movie mechanics. IE we need to cut time to save money

Example-

In the Phantom Menace a scene was filmed and cut when Anakin was being teased by his friends over the up coming pod race and he goes ballistic and beats the crap out of Little Greedo. Lucus wanted to show Anakin had a temper and that when it comes time for the Jedi to decide whether to train him or not we should have a little doubt. Yeah maybe we shouldnt give the little hothead a light saber and teach him to crush peoples throats from a distance.

In a New Hope the scene with Lukes friends was cut. This showed insite that Luke was sort of a picked on wuss amoung his friends and that would cast doubt on his self confidence later on when Ben HAnds him a light saber and askes him to go off and save the universe.

Same with Biggs scene. Who was this guy coming up and shaking Lukes hand at the begining of the Death star battle. Why is Luke upset that a guy he just met 15 minutes ago bit the farm.

So writting several 500 word essays on a fictional characters fictional motivation is kind of a moot point.

And so the economy continues to collapse and more whales die *Sigh*

[huedell]

Man. I belong to a Star Wars discussion site (theforce.net) where we sit around debating this kind of stuff in depth all day long. But the novel-length posts in this thread outstrip just about anything over there! You guys, darklord and huedell, should come join the boards at TFN and post to your heart's content. Then instead of two guys going back and forth, we'll have 10 - 20 people weighing in with their (hopefully not as long-winded! ) opinions. MTFBWY.

"It's not my fault! It's not my fault!"
--I feel like Lando or Han here

I mean I know I'm notorious for long posts...but the long posts I made here
were just to keep up with darklord....dang that boy has a lot to say about
this!

And so MUCH of it I disagree with

Thanks for the invite Vort---but I'm about ready to keel over here!

MTFBW....YOU!