For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[Gorn Captain]

Ben shielded Luke from a terrible truth.
He did give him indications about what happened. And tried to take it from there.
Basically he said that the good man that was Anakin was murdered by the evil man that was Darth Vader-Anakin. The bad side of the coin destroying the good side.
More or less like Batman's Two-Face, whose dark side took over, crushing his virtuous one.
Was that a lie, or a distortion of a situation that might have messed up Luke forever?

If I had to tell a young innocent man about his evil father (evil at the time of speaking about it, not when Anakin was young), I'd sugarcoat it. Waiting for a better time, when that young man was stronger.
What could he say?: "Hi, young man, your Daddy was a genocidal baby-killing monster. But he started out pretty decent, though. Now, how about some breakfast?"

[Gorn Captain]

What about not knowing those droids? What a dis. Sure C 3PO got memory wiped but poor R2.

"Beep Boop" Translate Hey man good to see you again
"I dont recall knowing this droid"

"Beeeeep Wheeze" Translate Screw you after all we were through...

Don't get me started on that. I hated that part!
And I'll never for George for making R2 fly, spit fire, have extra arms,...
R2 was fine the way he was!

But that wasn't the question for this thread.
Let's make another thread for that!!!

[Gorn Captain]

George Lucas is a filmmaker in our own real world reality. But he is NOT a character from STAR WARS.

George Lucas is real?

[ZICA]

I honestly don't think Lucas had everything figured out when he wrote the first movie and probably considered Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker to be two totally different characters. My reasoning for this is because of how he handled the whole Luke/Leia relationship in the first two films. If he had planned for them to be brother and sister all along I doubt he would have included the parts of them seeming to have a romantic interest in each other. After finding out they were siblings in The Return of the Jedi it gives the previous films a weird kind of vibe when the scenes of them kissing takes place.

[huedell]

I honestly don't think Lucas had everything figured out when he wrote the first movie and probably considered Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker to be two totally different characters. My reasoning for this is because of how he handled the whole Luke/Leia relationship in the first two films. If he had planned for them to be brother and sister all along I doubt he would have included the parts of them seeming to have a romantic interest in each other. After finding out they were siblings in The Return of the Jedi it gives the previous films a weird kind of vibe when the scenes of them kissing takes place.

I've said this before...and I'll say it again....

Incest is a common theme or undertone in mythology and other epic classic stories...

...and having the Skywalkers flirting with each other AIDS
the surprise revelation of them being brother and sister
instead of HURTING it...it's (what they call in the movies)
a "red herring" (i.e. a distraction from the truth eventually revealed).

It also sets up the connection of Leia and Han quite cleanly.

Leia prefers to get romantically involved with the guy that ISN'T her
brother!

[ZICA]

I've said this before...and I'll say it again....

Incest is a common theme or undertone in mythology and other epic classic stories...

...and having the Skywalkers flirting with each other AIDS
the surprise revelation of them being brother and sister
instead of HURTING it...it's (what they call in the movies)
a "red herring" (i.e. a distraction from the truth eventually revealed).

It also sets up the connection of Leia and Han quite cleanly.

Leia prefers to get romantically involved with the guy that ISN'T her
brother!

Maybe so but I still say Lucas DIDN'T have the complete trilogy planned out when he started on the first movie.

[Seeker]

But that wasn't the question for this thread.
Let's make another thread for that!!!

Ahh but it does. It goes to show you how the lies keep coming from the old man. First Luke, then the force, the poor R2. Obviously this man had a problem.


And George Lucas is real? I thought he was just CGI.

[UnderdogDJLSW]

I agree with pretty much everything that was said. In the context of the history of what happened, it would be impossible for Obi Wan to say "Darth Vader is your dad and your sister is on Alderaan, let's go!" But if you look at the prequel films, Obi Wan isn't the best of the Jedi, just a bit more lucky than the rest of them. Perhaps, there was also a bit of fear in him like "Boy, I messed up with Anakin, maybe if Luke finds out his father is Vader, he'll turn towards the dark side, too." In other words, hide the truth for self preservation and take Luke under his wing to try and right the wrong he caused with the creation of Vader.

[huedell]

Maybe so but I still say Lucas DIDN'T have the complete trilogy planned out when he started on the first movie.

Well, that's a can of worms I don't wanna revisit---however---it
DID strike me to applaud the value of the "Skywalker flirting"
and how it played into the ultimate conclusion of the
"Luke/Leia/Han Love Triangle"----always liked the romantic
push and pull there....best epitimized in that Hoth Medical Room scene
and "The Kiss".

[huedell]

I agree with pretty much everything that was said. In the context of the history of what happened, it would be impossible for Obi Wan to say "Darth Vader is your dad and your sister is on Alderaan, let's go!" But if you look at the prequel films, Obi Wan isn't the best of the Jedi, just a bit more lucky than the rest of them. Perhaps, there was also a bit of fear in him like "Boy, I messed up with Anakin, maybe if Luke finds out his father is Vader, he'll turn towards the dark side, too." In other words, hide the truth for self preservation and take Luke under his wing to try and right the wrong he caused with the creation of Vader.

Oh yes---yes---yes.

I love the end of SITH when Padme's like "You're gonna kill him aren't you?"
and Obi's like "You bet!" (paraphrased by me!)

By the time Yoda convinces Obi-Wan of the danger Anakin and
the Sith hold, Obi-Wan wants to solve this Sith problem at all costs.

Lie, cheat...kill his best friend.

I like that about Obi.

On the other hand...Anakin is a selfish jerk.

[darklord1967]

Alright, here's how I see this whole situation:



Obi-Wan Kenobi LIED... plain and simple. Evidently, "kindly old Obi-Wan" was not so virtuous as we were all led to believe.

Furthermore, many of the noble reasons for Kenobi's lie (as stated by some of you here) simply hold NO WATER for me at all... especially in light of everything we saw in the prequels.

Let's take this chronologically episode, by episode.

As a young man (in Episode I) Kenobi was an arrogant twerp who considered himself (and acted like he was) superior to "pathetic life forms". He had a tumultous relationship with his own master (that HE cultivated by not "knowing his place"), and then he likely felt jealous of Qui-Gon's afinity for the new little kid.

He had such disregard for little Ani that he talked about him right in front of him, as if he were un-important or had no feelings ("The boy is dangerous")

Moments later the poor kid goes to Qui Gon feeling hurt and rejected ("Master Qui-Gon, I don't want to be a problem.")

Later on, in Episode II as he trains Anakin to be a Jedi, Obi-Wan is a control freak who berates, belittles, and humiliates Anakin at every turn and at every opportunity, with snide remarks ("Your senses are not that attuned, my young apprentice" "You will learn your place young one"), sarcasm ("Good job!" during Ani's attempted rescue at the Geonosis arena), and frankly, jealousy over the kid's amazing abilities ("I hate it when he does that").

Compassion for others is supposed to be one of the cornerstones of Jedi philosophy and way of life. Apparently, Kenobi doesn't feel that this compassion should be extended to his appentice. When Skywalker tells him of the troubled nightmares he's been having of his mother's brutal, painful murder, Obi shrugs it off with, "Dreams pass in time."

Nevermind that Anakin may have had a spiritual connection with his mother.

And of course we all know how THAT situation panned out. Thanks again, Obi, for the support.

That was how Kenobi treated a padawan who was fiercely loyal and devoted to him, and had saved HIS butt on countless occasions... even BEFORE the break out of the Clone Wars.

Don't even get me started about the constant rejection, mistrust, and flagrant hostility that the Jedi council demonstrates against Anakin.

So finally, in Episode III at the last possible moment when Anakin sees no choice but to turn to the Dark Side of the Force, these arrogant, self-important Jedi with their rules, and codes, and archaic traditions are unable to see what they did wrong. They are unable to see how THEY contributed to Anakin's fall from grace.

For someone that THEY considered to be the "Chosen One", they sure kept him at arms length!

I don't reject the idea that Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was his own choice, and that it was a vile immoral one.

I also fully accept that Anakin's fate was a form of self-fulfilling prophecy: The agonized death that he foretold and envisioned for Padme was a condition HE created by trying to save her from said fate.

However, in that same way, the Jedi Council's fate was also a form of self-fulfilling prophecy. The "...uncertain, clouded, future..." (fall from grace) of that "... dangerous..." 9 year old boy was partially a condition that THEY created by rejecting, insulting, and isolating that young man so thoroughly.

It's shocking to me how a group of supposedly virtuous and compassionate knights could be so openly hostile and suspicious of someone who was only guilty of being fiercely loyal to THEM: (Re: MACE WINDU: I don't trust him.)

On the other hand...Anakin is a selfish jerk.

Hmmm... We definitely disagree on THAT point.

Anakin was an exemplary Jedi. He won battle after battle on behalf of the Republic during the Clone Wars. He single-handedly killed Count Dooku, rescued the kidnapped Supreme Chancellor, and basically became the Jedi "...poster boy..." and Republic hero.

Even after Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord, Anakin's first act (due to his allegance to the Jedi) was to threaten him at sword point. And don't forget: This was probably the only man who was supportive of him and treated him kindly. Of course, Anakin's second act was to report Palpatine as a Sith Lord to Mace Windu so that he could be arrested.

What did he get for his troubles? More suspicion and mistrust from Windu: (Re: MACE: For your own good, stay here, Anakin. I sense much confusion that clouds your judgement. If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust.")

In other words, not even Anakin doing his sworn duty as a Jedi (and reporting an admitted Sith Lord) was enough to gain Windu's trust.

As for Anakin's "...confusion..." and "...clouded judgement.." he wasn't so confused or clouded in his judgement that he didn't know what the RIGHT THING TO DO WAS. He reported the vile Sith Lord... and he did it without hesitation!

If Yoda, Windu and some of the others had treated their "chosen one" with more of the decency and compassion for others that they espoused as their philosophy, then perhaps he might NOT have turned, and all would be well.

So now when you flash forward 19 or so years to Episode IV, and Luke Skywalker asks Obi-Wan "How did my father die?", Kenobi chooses to give a political answer because THAT'S how the Jedi were used to dealing with things... depite their supposed propensity toward compassion.

To those of you that assign some sort of nobility to Kenobi's misleading fib to Luke, I propose that there was ABSOLUTELY NO nobility or compassion in it at all. And there was even LESS compassion in his ROTJ bull crap "...certain point of view..." justification.

It was easier for Kenobi to say that Darth Vader "... betrayed and murdered..." Anakin Skywalker, because then he could place the blame outside himself and the jedi council for Anakin's terrible fate.

What Kenobi told Luke was not only untruthful in FACT, it was untruthful FIGURATIVELY, and it was untruthful even from Obi-Wan's "...point of view..."

If Obi-Wan saw things spiritually (as his "...certain point of view..." explanation implies), and he saw Darth and Anakin as TWO SEPARATE personalities, then he STILL LIED back on Tatooine.

Darth Vader was never "A young Jedi". He was a Sith Lord and Obi-Wan's sworn enemy from the moment he was "born".

Darth Vader was never "... a pupil of..." Kenobi's

And even though the Darth Vader personality betrayed the Anakin Skywalker personality, it COULD NOT (by definition) "murder" it.

A personality CANNOT be "murdered". THIS IS THE VERY CRUX OF KENOBI'S LIE!!!!!!

A "murder" is a very specific kind of destruction. For a "murder" to happen, one living, breathing individual must have their PHYSICAL life-sustaining functions permanently discontinued (causing physical death) by the actions of another individual. This act MUST occur against the will, wishes and desires of the "victim". In other words, the victim must DESIRE continued physical life.

Anything short of this definition and you do NOT have a "murder"... not even from Obi-Wan's standpoint. This is why he used the more general term "destroyed" (during his Episode VI fess-up) when describing the fate of Anakin's personality / spirit.

The clarification of his own "viewpoint" in Return of the Jedi made it very clear that he intellectually, emotionally, and factually understood the precise details of Anakin's fall to the dark side, and that he had made a very deliberate attempt at misleading deception when he told Luke the story of Anakin's "murder" back on Tatooine.

To "destroy" is NOT THE SAME as to "murder".

Someone can be "killed / destroyed" in an auto accident
Someone can be "killed / destroyed" in a natural disaster
A manically depressed person can "destroy" themselves by doing lots of narcotics.

But NONE of these "killings" or forms of "destruction" can be classified as a "murder".

A "murder" is a specific KIND of destruction... just like suicides, homicides, etc are.

The same thing CANNOT be said the other way around. A "destruction" is NOT a specific kind of "murder".

Obi-Wan is a master manipulator, and he manipulated language very carefully in his original bull crap story to Luke, thereby creating a completely false impression of the facts as they occurred.

For example, by saying that Darth Vader was "... a pupil of mine" Kenobi implied that there was more than one pupil under his tutelage, when in fact there was only ever Anakin. Of course more than one individual creates a condition where a "murder" is entirely possible.

If anyone disagrees with my assessment on this point, try this experiment:

The next time you introduce your wife to someone, try saying, "Hi, this is Sarah. She is a wife of mine.

I guarantee that unless you are living happily in a polygamous marriage, you'll find yourself in the doghouse!

[darklord1967]

Ben shielded Luke from a terrible truth.
He did give him indications about what happened. And tried to take it from there.

If I had to tell a young innocent man about his evil father (evil at the time of speaking about it, not when Anakin was young), I'd sugarcoat it. Waiting for a better time, when that young man was stronger.

What could he say?: "Hi, young man, your Daddy was a genocidal baby-killing monster. But he started out pretty decent, though. Now, how about some breakfast?"

Well certainly, giving those gruesome details would have been counterproductive at that point... even though it would have been the truth.

However, telling Luke that his father was still alive but tragically living under the spell of the Dark Side of the Force as a different individual named Darth Vader would at least have been the TRUTH, and it would have been compassionate.

But Kenobi was NOT interested in sparing the boy's feelings.
He was not interested in it back on Tatooine in A NEW HOPE
And he sure as heckfire was NOT interested in Luke's feelings during his emotionless "...certain point of view..." justification during RETURN OF THE JEDI.

It was as if he looked directly into the face of Luke Skywalker's painful (justified) resentment, shrugged his shoulders, sat on a log and said, "Suck it up, kiddo. I hustled you. That's the way the cookie crumbles."

No apologies. No regrets.

No, I'm sorry but, Kenobi never cared about anyone's feelings. Emotions are irrelevant to a Jedi, remember?

As a young man, Kenobi didn't care about Anakin's feelings.
And as an old man / Force ghost, he didn't care about Luke's feelings either.


Telling Luke that his father was brutally murdered (when he was NOT) isn't the act of someone looking to protect someone's feelings. It is, in fact, a horrible thing to say... especially when it is NOT true.

Furthermore it's a lie that's potentially traumatic (if we're going to talk about protecting Luke's feelings).

No, Obi-Wan's lie is the act of someone who is covering up his own GUILT over the matter. It is also the act of someone who is trying to MANIPULATE Luke into joining a crusade to fight the Empire and kill Darth Vader by neglecting to mention that he is also his dad.

This patricide goal continued to be Yoda and Kenobi's focus even after his Return of the Jedi fess up. (Re: "You must face Darth Vader again" "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil".)

De-personalize and de-humanize Anakin, and it's easy to imply "destroying" him like if he were a badly malfunctioning car or something. That's Kenobi's tactic.

Hmmm. Sounds like shades of that same arrogant PUNK who referred to Anakin as "...another pathetic life-form..." all those years ago on Tatooine.

Ultimately, it was LUKE who rejected Jedi doctrines of not acting for "personal desire" etc when he ignored Kenobi's assessment that Vader's destruction was the only option for a peaceful galaxy.

Remember, it was LUKE who instead saw his father's salvation as an alternative solution.

It a good thing too, because ultimately it was Luke's love and his personal desires for his father's redemption that finally claimed Anakin from the clutches of the Dark Side, and gave the old man the courage to vanquish Palpatine and bring an end to his reign of galactic cruelty and terror.

So much for strict Jedi codes.

Just imagine if Luke had followed Yoda and Kenobi's implications and murdered his own father back on Death Star II (when he had his sword at Vader's throat).

What would have been the result?

Palpatine would have asked Luke to join him. Luke would have refused. And Palpatine would have fried him with Force lightning until he was dead.

The Death Star II would still have been destroyed of course. But Palpatine might very well have escaped the calamity to live on and fight another day (it's what villains do).

In the meantime, he would have cheerfully placed ads for a new sith apprentice while The Empire re-grouped and re-fortified its forces under his continued leadership.


In response to your "What could he have said?" question:

I would have MUCH less of an issue with Obi-Wan's words to Luke having room for a spiritual viewpoint interpretation if he had said:

" A young Sith Lord named Darth Vader, who was my Jedi pupil before he joined the Sith and turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and destroyed your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."


Having phrased it like this, the "...certain point of view... " argument could definitely have been made more legitimately. Are these words misleading? Yes. But technically they are NOT a lie... not from a spiritual standpoint.

[darklord1967]

Basically he said that the good man that was Anakin was murdered by the evil man that was Darth Vader-Anakin. The bad side of the coin destroying the good side.
More or less like Batman's Two-Face, whose dark side took over, crushing his virtuous one.
Was that a lie, or a distortion of a situation that might have messed up Luke forever?

From Kenobi's "... own point of view..." that was a LIE. The evidence is plain as day to see in the movie saga:

There was certainly more sincerity on Yoda's part than there was on Obi-Wan's regarding the spiritual viewpoint of Anakin's "demise".

As far as I can see, it was never Kenobi's tendency to view things spiritually.

This is at the core of my vehement insistence that he LIED BLATANTLY to Luke back on Tatooine with his "...certain point of view..." assessment of Darth Vader's "murder" of Anakin Skywalker.

Don't forget: Moments after he and Yoda discovered the painful truth about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side of the Force and tranformation into Darth Vader, it was Obi-Wan's continued tendency to see Vader as "Anakin".

By contrast, it was Yoda who immediately expressed the viewpoint that (spiritually speaking), the boy Kenobi trained was "gone", and that he was "consumed" by Darth Vader.

Later on, even as Kenobi clashed furiously with Darth Vader on firey Mustafar, he continued to "see" (and refer to) him as "Anakin".

Obi-Wan didn't have the heart to kill a defeated Darth Vader in cold blood on Mustafar. But only because he continued to see him as Anakin Skywalker. Where was his "spiritual viewpoint" of two separate personalities then?

Interestingly enough, despite Yoda's own legitimate spiritual viewpoint, at least he answered with a simple, truthful "Your father he is" when Luke asked if Vader's claim was true.

No shuckin' and jivin'. No BS.

[darklord1967]

If I may momentarily break my own "in universe" debate guidelines for a moment:

I'm quite certain that GL would disagree vehemently with my Obi-Wan rat-fink liar assessment.

He definitely sees Kenobi's "...certain point of view..." justification regarding Anakin's "murder" by Darth Vader as perfectly within the boundaries of Obi-Wan's personal belief system.

It was probably the main reason why he changed the Force-Spirit of Anakin in the Return of the Jedi DVD from old Sebastian Shaw into young Hayden Christensen.

Lucas saw Anakin as "dead" immediately after assuming the identity of Darth Vader.

Therefore, when good Anakin was "resurrected" at the end of Jedi, it was as he last appeared (as a good young man).

However, (in my view) Lucas' revisionist changes COMPLETELY IGNORE the very basic fact that it was "good" Anakin Skywalker who saved his son Luke from being murdered at the hands of the Emperor on Death Star II. It was NOT Darth Vader.

And it was Anakin Skywalker who asked to see his son's face with his own eyes just before he died. Not Darth Vader.

In my view, Anakin Skywalker was NOT "ressurrected" at the end of Return of the Jedi. He "re-emerged". There's a HUGE difference.

A ressurrection implies a return from the dead. And Anakin was NOT dead.

Spiritually-speaking, he was imprisoned. He was tragically burried alive and surpressed deep down... virtually smothered by the greed, cruelty, and viciousness of Darth Vader.

But when he found the courage to fight Vader and his Emperor and "re-emerge", he did so victoriously... and he fulfilled his role in the ancient prophecy as the Chosen One".

In a very real sense it was Luke Skywalker who finally "killed" Darth Vader.

You see, Luke's strong love and faith in the goodness residing inside his father was a powerful weapon that cowardly Vader could never stand up to or defend against.

That weapon, when combined with the long-dormant spiritual courage of a true Jedi Knight was more than enough to destroy Darth Vader and his vile Emperor.

I think that is the ultimate moral of the Anakin Skywalker story:

Strength, courage, skills with a blade... these things are fine, but they are not everything

An individual must also have the respect, support, love and faith of a loved one in order to weather the most difficult trials and challenges that life presents.

Armed with that, a person can withstand virtually anything... certainly the temptations of a lowly Sith Lord.

That's what the Jedi failed to understand.

A Jedi shall not know possession, attachment... or love"

Hmm. Indeed.

[Gorn Captain]

Much anger about Obi-Wan, I sense in you, Darklord1967.

I disagree about quite a few things in this thread ( and I could talk about this for hours), but one thing I must say: the Jedi handled their affairs all wrong.
Take Anakin's case: he is forced to leave his (slave) mother behind, not allowed to look back, or save her. They leave this to brood in him for, what, over ten years?
They force him to push aside normal feeling of love and commitment.
No wonder the guy goes awol and starts slaughtering Sand People!
No wonder he turns against them.

When it comes down to it, they force an unnatural life on many of their Jedi knights.
Anakin made his own choice, but the Jedi Council surely pushed him right to the very edge first.
If Ben lied to Luke, well, sometimes a lie is kinder than the truth. It depends on many factors. Did Ben fail? The whole council did, being shortsighted.
"Sith Lords are extinct, hence they can't exist now."
What kind of simple reasoning was that?

I wouldn't focus on any possible lies that were told-or not-, but more on that certain arrogance of the Jedi, to believe in their own infallibility.


PS: Luke and Leia's romantic involvement? I don't think Lucas would have allowed The Kiss, had he planned beyond that in advance. And if you look closely, on Hoth in the medical centre, I do believe I spotted an Intergalactic Pregnancy Test Kit in the trash can....