For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[huedell]

I'll add a quote from ObiWan to Luke: "Bury your feelings deep down
Luke, theydo you credit but the could be made to serve the Emporer". He
didn't tell Luke he COULDN'T have hose feelings.

As I said in one of my earlier posts....in these scenarios...what really counts
are ACTIONS not words or thoughts.

It's nice that Luke or Anakin had good feelings for those that they loved
BUT
acting on them was percieved as "screwing everything up"----

and in both scenarios Luke....and Anakin----that's exactly what happened
when they acted on those feelings.

Following the wise Jedi advice was the RIGHT thing to do for the GALAXY
and the Skywalkers were too selfish (anti-Jedi) to do this...

The Jedi Council was right (no running off to save his mommy/or Padme)...

and...

Ben and Yoda were right (no running off to Bespin).

I have no doubt in mind this is what transpired. Jedi rules or not,
they did NOTHING to help him.

That's not what the Jedi are about...none of the other Jedi had these kinds
of connections to loved ones because they were trained young enough
and were serviant enough to the Jedi order who had goals to protect
the galaxy...not to help each other out when their mother's were kinapped
or when their wives were knocked up
(wives being not allowed in th Jedi order to begin with...Anakin!)

Was Luke told he COULDN'T go to Bespin to help Han, Leia and Chewie? NO. He was told he SHOULDN'T. Apply this to Anikan wanting to help
his mother. RIGHT there tells me the Jedi weren't all that stringent. OR, they learned from their mistakes with Anikan.

Are you kidding me? I had to laugh when I read that.

What----were Yoda and Ben going to pin Luke down so he couldn't go?

In Anakin's day, the Jedi were the police of the galaxy---they could
hold their own members more responsible for their actions through
council and action.

By the time of ESB, there was NO Jedi order to keep things together
----just a couple old Jedis pinning their hope on Luke---of
course they would've stopped him if they had any kind of officiality to
what they were doing.

And as far as what you said about someone else other than Obi wan
instructing Anakin...someone like Yoda...it wt really wouldn't
have made a difference.

Anakin was too connected to people and too selfish because of it to have
escaped the fate he fell into.

He shouldn't have been trained at all----or if he WAS to be trained maybe more
of it should been focused on not being such a selfish, rash person instead
of the choke hold

[MarkStalcup]

Okay Hugh...here's how you're wrong on that. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, then he may have never learned Anakin was Darth, and then he might have tried to kill Darth, succeeded, and then likely would have been killed by the Emperor had he refused to turn to the Dark Side himself. So the journey, as part of Joseph Campbell's typical journey from "The Hero With 1,000 Faces" is one where our protagonist loses something but gains knowledge and thereby can act to correct mistakes of the past.

[huedell]

Okay Hugh...here's how you're wrong on that. If Luke hadn't gone to Bespin, then he may have never learned Anakin was Darth, and then he might have tried to kill Darth, succeeded, and then likely would have been killed by the Emperor had he refused to turn to the Dark Side himself. So the journey, as part of Joseph Campbell's typical journey from "The Hero With 1,000 Faces" is one where our protagonist loses something but gains knowledge and thereby can act to correct mistakes of the past.

Your idea about Luke being killed by the Emperor is too much speculation
for me to accept as a "lock".

Your Campbell point is well noted though...I can respect that...sounds sound
enough.

[MarkStalcup]

Look at how bad he gets fried by the Emperor before Vader intervenes. That's a lock if he refused to join him. Luke gets nuked. It is a given. And Anakin/Vader saves him, because he himself is saved by his son's love.

[jwyblejr]

I think a better question would be did anyone in Star Wars not lie?

[huedell]

Look at how bad he gets fried by the Emperor before Vader intervenes. That's a lock if he refused to join him. Luke gets nuked. It is a given. And Anakin/Vader saves him, because he himself is saved by his son's love.

1) In the context of the situation Luke was in at point? I'm not so sure
The Emperor vs. Luke with the Emperor winning is a fair thing to call "a lock".
If Luke would have trusted Ben/Yoda's wisdom that scenario wouldn't
have happened until much later.

Also, you have, in that scenario, Luke trying to make a (stupid) point
that he will not fight (presumably just Vader or both---whatever)
and he basically just "gives up" in rebellion---kinda the same way
Luke threw himself down that "shaft" or whatever in Bespin after Vader told
him he was his dad and gave him the "opportunity" to join HIM...
.....same thing as the end of Jedi basically.

Ya know...
I think I'm just gonna have to call him "Suicidal Luke" from now on.

2) And Anakin saves Luke because---yes---because he is reminded of
"love". "Love" for HIS son. Told ya Anakin was a selfish bastich

[Raydeen1]

The Jedi were arrogant and narrow minded and too set in the old ways. They managed to "screw everything up" worse than Luke or Anikan did. It was their own arrogance that allowed Palpatine to become the Emporer. Luke ran off to Bespin. Hmmm.... I don't see how that in any way screwed anything up. Luke felt his father's emotions and had time later to devise a plan that undid the Empire. Sounds like it didn't screw up things for the galaxy.

Luke ended up saving everyone in the end. Actions. Hmm.

The Jedi are about helping their fellow man. So that somehow means Anikan or Luke or Windou or any other Jedi, are not fellow men? C'mon Hue. That's just ludicrous.

OBI Wan and Yoda must have had some faith in Luke or they never would have let him go to Bespin.
If they wanted to, they could have stopped Luke. They didn't need any official anything. They didn't WANT to stop him. Yoda was the Jedi master, Luke was his pupil. He had EVERY authority to stop him and more than enough power.

Young, inexperienced OBI Wan or Yoda, the Jedi Master training the "Chosen One". Pretty sure Yoda would have handled Anikan differently. Much like underacheiving kids, they need GOOD teachers. Fairly certain if it were say, a piano phenom, a tennis phenom, etc... they aren't going to hand that kid over to a rookie let alone if said child were the "Chosen One".

Anikan's connection to other people saved him and the galaxy in the end, as he stated to Luke. This was the point. The human connection. The Jedi LACKED this and it was their undoing.

No. Even OBI Wan admitted he should NOT have trained Anikan. If Yoda had trained him, as he should have, things may have turned out differently. Difficult to see the future is.



Where's Darklord? Hue, you guys have been doing a great job. I loved reading each post, whether I agree or not. I'd much rather talk about something like this than type. Typing is just so time consuming for me. Hence my not quoting everything.

[huedell]

The Jedi are about helping their fellow man. So that somehow means
Anikan or Luke or Windou or any other Jedi, are not fellow men? C'mon Hue.
That's just ludicrous.

"Helping your fellow man" What thin air did you pull that out from?

The Jedi were the police force of the galaxy...as ordained by the Senate.
And just like any police force---they have codes and rules.

You just don't get it do you. You can't be a part of the police force
and then allow the problems of single policemen to screw up the fate
of the whole city....or galaxy, in the case of the Jedis.

I'll tell you what's "ludicruous"...the fact I'm debating with people who don't
understand this VERY SIMPLE aspect of what being a Jedi meant
when they were the police force of the galaxy.

The Jedi were arrogant and narrow minded and too set in the old
ways. They managed to "screw everything up" worse than Luke or Anikan
did. It was their own arrogance that allowed Palpatine to become the
Emporer.

I'd like to see you actually explain this. What in episodes I-VI would
lead you to believe that the Jedi's "arrogance" allowed Palpatine
to take control. Looks like you're reaching here.

Luke ended up saving everyone in the end. Actions. Hmm.

Luke didn't save ANYONE by going to Bespin...he DID however allow
his friends to be used as bait...put his friend's lives at risk multiple times up
to the very point where they had to go back and rescue him dangling from
the city....he also found out too early that Darth was his father, and
lost an arm while doing so.

It's typical Skywalker stupidity...but hey---we wouldn't have STAR WARS
movies without it.-----------
------------------

Where's Darklord? Hue, you guys have been doing a great job. I loved reading each post, whether I agree or not. I'd much rather talk about something like this than type. Typing is just so time consuming for me. Hence my not quoting everything.

And since I disagree so wholeheartedly with your, darklord's and whoever's posts---I'm screwed because I have an EASY answer to why I
disagree----I hate typing too---and with all respect---I feel you guys just
don't "get it".

I surely am about to stop all this as it seems a few here have it out for the
Jedis for some reason...and don't understand how rash the Skywalkers were
and how that very rashness is what caused most of the problems
and conflicts in the movies to begin with...but...like I said....there'd
be no Saga without that.....shame some posters here can't come to terms with that.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Where was that last thread on this Hugh or DL1967, , , as I agree with Hugh 100% and typed my rationales there and don't want to do any long typing now. . . .where the heck was that other thread!

Yeah Hugh. . . nice work. . . where do they get this stuff from!???

[huedell]

OBI Wan and Yoda must have had some faith in Luke or they never would have let him go to Bespin.
If they wanted to, they could have stopped Luke. They didn't need any official anything. They didn't WANT to stop him. Yoda was the Jedi master, Luke was his pupil. He had EVERY authority to stop him and more than enough power.

Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.

Obi and Yoda did not have faith that Luke was ready to face Vader---they expressed that multiple times in ESB---the tree fight being the biggest
up til the very end when Yoda told him NOT TO GO.

This wasn't back in Anakin's day where they were teachers at a school
for "policemen" they were renegade fugitives from the law an old withered
Jedi master and a ghost. They had NO authority. AND they weren't
about to battle thier (second to) last hope so he wouldn't leave. Geesh,
I can't believe I'm typing this.

Young, inexperienced OBI Wan or Yoda, the Jedi Master training
the "Chosen One". Pretty sure Yoda would have handled Anikan differently.
Much like underacheiving kids, they need GOOD teachers. Fairly certain if it were say, a piano phenom, a tennis phenom, etc... they aren't going to hand
that kid over to a rookie let alone if said child were the "Chosen One".

Anikan's connection to other people saved him and the galaxy in the end, as
he stated to Luke. This was the point. The human connection. The Jedi
LACKED this and it was their undoing.

No. Even OBI Wan admitted he should NOT have trained Anikan. If Yoda had
trained him, as he should have, things may have turned out differently. Difficult to see the future is.

Fine...so Yoda might have been the better teacher...so what?

My point in saying that is...I'm not convinced that if Yoda
was Anakin's teacher that things would've been any different
---and even so---HYPOTHETICALLY---if Yoda being Anakin's teacher
would've been a better choice---are you gonna blame the Jedi for that too?

As far as Obi Wan saying he shouldn't have trained Anakin---well---yeah--
if my pupil turned into DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, I'd be humble enough to say
that too---no matter HOW good of a job I did.

What was Obi Wan SUPPOSED to say?
"I was the perfect teacher for Anakin. I'm so proud."?

Obi Wan worked with what he got....a selfish hothead who happened to be
the most powerful dude in the galaxy.

[huedell]

Where was that last thread on this Hugh or DL1967, , , as I agree with Hugh 100% and typed my rationales there and don't want to do any long typing now. . . .where the heck was that other thread!

Yeah Hugh. . . nice work. . . where do they get this stuff from!???

Ha. I remembered there was someone out there who
understood what I was going through.

Regardless of where that thread is...I still aprerciate your support

What I think is that some people like raydeen and darklord quite frankly
fell for George Lucas' brilliant plotting of the Anakin(/Luke) story---
or more specifically the Anakin(/Luke) charcters.

Lucas suceeded in making those characters SO overly sympathetic
in spite of their flaws that certain people BOUGHT IT ALL---
like Anakin and Luke are their flawless alcoholic brothers or something---

and who takes the fall here for bro???---
"The Man" "The Police" "The Fuzz"---um...The Jedi (Council)

Hey---Lucas never gets half the credit he deserves

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Didn't Obi Wan promise Dim Sim Duck that he would train Anikan despite his personal reservations, and then fight the council to train him? Perhaps the council were happy for someone of lesser power or ability to train him, to limit the levels or abilities that Anikan could master. Imagine how difficult it would be to have contained Anikan if he had learnt all that Yoda could teach!

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

I found it. . . I knew it was somewhere odd. . . in the tropic thunder thread!
http://megomuseum.com/community/show...highlight=love

Aussie:
I am sorry Darklord. . . but you seem to be wide of the mark on a few points. Let me correct you and help you understand.

Firstly I agree completely Obi-Wan just couldn't help himself . . .poor soul. . .couldn't lie straight in bed. . . remember when he lied to those nice storm troopers with his cheap Jedi Mind Tricks. . . .FLAT OUT LIES. . . .All high and mighty. . ."These aren't the droids YOU are looking for". That Storm trooper could have got a nice pay rise and maybe a promotion out of THAT little deal. . .but no. . .Kenobi the LIAR. . .deceived him without any courtesy or a second thought.

You also seem to be under some delusion that LUKE was some kind of central character. . . when in fact. . .he is only a bit player, small fry in the grand scheme of things really. . . .why he isn't even IN THE FIRST TWO episodes AT ALL. . . and only in the 3rd for about 12 and 1/2 seconds. So whether this minor character is lied to or not is completely irrelevant. . .he is of no consequence.

You see. . .the main characters really are Obi-Wan and Anikan. . .only THEY are in all six episodes. It is actually a love story. . . that follows their whole lives and into eternity. They are both young and care free, each starting out as students under their shared Master who sadly dies. This bonds them together surely in an almost Kirk-Spock quasi love-nest story arc. . . . .the six episodes follow (as so many movies do) the path of their love,. . .sometimes tearing them apart. . . BUT FINALLY being brought together in the end - together for eternity. Is this NOT how the story and saga ends?

It is also Palpetines pandering and ego stroking that you call fathering. . . that is the SEDUCING force to the Dark side.

To be a Jedi Knight - is a spiritual commitment. . . a form of Warrior priest if you will. . . who like all priests must cast aside their own feelings, wants, desires, and exist only to serve others for the greater good.

The Jedi must not focus on self - seek praise, pandering or ego boosting steam being blown up their skirts. NO. . .the Jedi regadless of his feats. . .must be humble and learn humility. No personal gain.

Had he taken on these lessons, you see as personal attacks and shuns upon him, he would not have been seduced to the dark side. The Jedi's and council did what was best for him. SADLY the council was correct to warn against training him in the first place - his desires, wants, ego etc. . . made him unworthy to be a Jedi. . . he was too vein and this was his undoing. Had he obeyed and stayed away at the end of Ep 3 - he would not have finally fallen and killed Windu. . . .and all would have been well.

Pamper not the padawan!

I hope you have learnt a few things here. Feel free to ask me any thing else you aren't sure about though!

huedell

Hi darklord--

-I'm on someone else's computer right now, so I can't
make a proper post---but I will say that the "accurate" issue
was a foul up on my end, as I didn't mean to use the word in such
a different way in both posts---but I think you may have still got kinda
where I was going anyway----

----speaking of which----wow----Aussie really helped me out here
because quite frankly, he eloquently typed many things I don't have the paitence to type----your posts are nice and thorough darklord---but I actually
AGREE more with Aussie's take on the Kenobi character.

[fallensaviour]

Young, inexperienced OBI Wan or Yoda, the Jedi Master training the "Chosen One". Pretty sure Yoda would have handled Anakin differently. Much like underachieving kids, they need GOOD teachers. Fairly certain if it were say, a piano phenom, a tennis phenom, etc... they aren't going to hand that kid over to a rookie let alone if said child were the "Chosen One".

Even OBI Wan admitted he should NOT have trained Anakin. If Yoda had trained him, as he should have, things may have turned out differently. Difficult to see the future is.

The whole idea is missed that maybe Anakin was never the chosen one to begin with!!!
It is my belief that the chosen one was always Luke.
Yoda even stated in regards to Anakin that future with him is uncertain.It was Qui-gon's belief that Anakin was the chosen one not Yoda and he pushed his belief on obi-wan.
That I think is where some of obi-wan's resentment lies...


Did he lie? In his mind I don't think so he was jedi and if anakin became a sith named vader,he ceased to be Anakin skywalker hence the new begining as a sith named Vader anakin was nomore.So in Truth as Vader begat life so ended anakins existance.
To me it is pretty cut and dry.
And in closing why did Yoda never check Lukes midaclorian levels anyway???....

[Spyweb007]

Anakin brought balance to the force when he helped destroy the Jedi, leaving 2 Jedi - Obi Wan and Yoda, and 2 Sith - Vader and the Emperor. The Jedi misunderstood the prophecy...maybe