For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[darklord1967]

Alright here is a "philosophical" question that has long been debated among fans of the STAR WARS saga.

Chime in with your thoughts and viewpoints. This should be a very interesting discussion / debate.

Here goes:

In STAR WARS Episode IV: A NEW HOPE, Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi tells Luke that his father Anakin was "... betrayed and murdered..." by Darth Vader.

In Episode V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, we discover that Vader himself is Luke's Father Anakin, having fallen to the Dark Side of the Force, and having assumed a new identity as a Sith Lord.

And then in Episode VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI, the spirit of Obi-Wan Kenobi justifies his earlier assertion of Anakin's "... murder..." at the hands of Darth Vader as his own "... point of view..."

The Prequel films shed even more light on the events surrounding Anakin's fate.

The question is this:

Did Obi-Wan Kenobi LIE to Luke about his father's fate (in A NEW HOPE)?

Before you answer, here are a few guidelines for this discussion so that we don't get bogged down with inconsequential stuff:

1) Please consider the events of all 6 STAR WARS films in your answer.

2) Please keep your answers "in-universe". For example, there is NO NEED to point out that George Lucas had probably NOT made up his mind about the identity of Luke's father when he made EP IV.

That explanation is "out of universe". George Lucas is a filmmaker in our own real world reality. But he is NOT a character from STAR WARS.


That said, let's have at it.

I have my own VERY DEFINITIVE opinion on this philosophical matter, but I'll post it later on as this discussion gets going.

[toys2cool]

well if you think about it,it really is like Obi said "on a certain point of view" I mean if that's the way he see's it then it's not a lie

Should he have explained it better? Sure,but he didn't lie Just an old man being slick and using his words carefully

[MarkStalcup]

Okay...look at how Obi-Wan kind of looks at Luke sort of sketchily and averts his eyes when Luke asks "How did my father die?" Now, realize that Obi-Wan feels a tremendous amount of guilt over Anakin's fall and death, vis-a-vis how he says "I failed you Anakin. I loved you like a brother." (Revenge of the Sith) and that he needs Anakin's son to save Anakin's daughter and topple the Empire. Given that guilt, and the immediacy of need, and perhaps a strong dose of self-denial of his own role in Anakin's crippling and transformation, Obi-Wan says the more simplistic "A young Jedi named Darth Vader — who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil — betrayed and murdered your father." As in, Anakin betrayed everything he was by turning evil, by killing kids, by choking Padme, and so on...Obi-Wan feels like Luke is not ready for the burden that he will probably have to kill his own dad, and might blame Obi-Wan for the situation, so he couches it in metaphors.

[SUP-Ronin]

Okay...look at how Obi-Wan kind of looks at Luke sort of sketchily and averts his eyes when Luke asks "How did my father die?" Now, realize that Obi-Wan feels a tremendous amount of guilt over Anakin's fall and death, vis-a-vis how he says "I failed you Anakin. I loved you like a brother." (Revenge of the Sith) and that he needs Anakin's son to save Anakin's daughter and topple the Empire. Given that guilt, and the immediacy of need, and perhaps a strong dose of self-denial of his own role in Anakin's crippling and transformation, Obi-Wan says the more simplistic "A young Jedi named Darth Vader — who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil — betrayed and murdered your father." As in, Anakin betrayed everything he was by turning evil, by killing kids, by choking Padme, and so on...Obi-Wan feels like Luke is not ready for the burden that he will probably have to kill his own dad, and might blame Obi-Wan for the situation, so he couches it in metaphors.

Well put.

[darklord1967]

Hmm. An interesting response. Here we address personal "belief system" as it applies to the "truth" of someone's words.



By the way, let's be clear here as we define a "lie".

Certainly in this case it should probably be defined as:


LIE: A statement that is presented as factually truthful which the speaker knows to be false.

Therefore, according to this definition, a statement really CANNOT be called a "lie" IF the speaker is unaware that his words are factually incorrect.

That would simply make him "wrong", but NOT a Liar.


But ask yourself, can a lie ALSO be defined as what is NOT said?

For example, can silence or incomplete statements intentionally create an untruthful / misleading picture for someone else?

Debate on!

[Vortigern99]

Kenobi's assertion to Luke that "a pupil of mine before he turned to evil... betrayed and murdered your father" meets the dictionary definition of a lie. There's really no getting around that. Kenobi establishes Vader and Anakin (not named aloud till ROTJ) as two different people, and states that the former physically slew the latter. This is a lie.

That said, it was an understandable falsehood, designed to protect Luke's young and impressionable mind from the burden of knowing that his father is a tyrannical warlord and genocidal maniac. This could be a crushing blow for this simple, idealistic farmboy. Kenobi tells him this lie for Luke's own good, and for the Galaxy's. Kenobi knows that Luke is the best (new) hope for the restoration of the Republic. Telling him he is the heir of a darkside warlord would likely have damaged his psyche and curtailed his fledgeling heroism.

So, was it a lie? Yes. Was it reprehensible? No. Was it necessary? Probably.

[darklord1967]

Kenobi's assertion to Luke that "a pupil of mine before he turned to evil... betrayed and murdered your father" meets the dictionary definition of a lie. There's really no getting around that. Kenobi establishes Vader and Anakin (not named aloud till ROTJ) as two different people, and states that the former physically slew the latter. This is a lie.

That said, it was an understandable falsehood, designed to protect Luke's young and impressionable mind from the burden of knowing that his father is a tyrannical warlord and genocidal maniac. This could be a crushing blow for this simple, idealistic farmboy. Kenobi tells him this lie for Luke's own good, and for the Galaxy's. Kenobi knows that Luke is the best (new) hope for the restoration of the Republic. Telling him he is the heir of a darkside warlord would likely have damaged his psyche and curtailed his fledeling heroism.

So, was it a lie? Yes. Was it reprehensible? No. Was it necessary? Probably.

Thanks for chiming in Vort! I was hoping you would.

Not surprisingly, I agree with some parts of your stance on this and disagree with others.

Huedell and AUSSIE both have debated me on this issue before, so they know what my opinion is. If you guys join this debate (and I hope you both do), please hold off on revealing my stance on this before I do. I'd really like to read more opinions in this matter before I chime in with my own.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I have to go with Vort's assessment. Mark's was well-put as well. But technically (and I can tell you are wanting technical examples here) Obi-Wan is indeed lying. Had Anakin's "good side" resurfaced even briefly in Episode III while he fought Obi-Wan, one could make a case that the Dark Side of Anakin slayed the good, and "Vader" murdered Anakin. This wasn't the case. So I agree that Obi-Wan did lie, but it was for all the right reasons.

Chris

[megoscott]

Luke's father is WHO?

[Seeker]

Does it matter?

[megoscott]

The real question is why Obi-Wan lied about the force and didn't mention the midichlorians.

[Earth 2 Chris]

The real question is why Obi-Wan lied about the force and didn't mention the midichlorians

Man, did that concept suck. Of all the things that were wrong about the prequels, that was the worst.

Chris

[megoscott]

Maybe they can digitally insert a scene where Obi Wan jabs Luke with a syringe to test his midichlorian count.

[Seeker]

What about not knowing those droids? What a dis. Sure C 3PO got memory wiped but poor R2.

"Beep Boop" Translate Hey man good to see you again
"I dont recall knowing this droid"

"Beeeeep Wheeze" Translate Screw you after all we were through...

[Seeker]

The real question is why Obi-Wan lied about the force and didn't mention the midichlorians.

Catch the back story of Sideous keeping the body of that jedi he got to buy the clone army on ice so he could inject midicholrians into Gen Grievious to enhance him.

Boy just find a Jedi and steal a bit o blood and you too can do amazing gymnatic moves, hurl lightning and choke your neighbors from a distance