For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[darklord1967]

I just believe in being thorough is all.

I'll shut up now.

[huedell]

So writting several 500 word essays on a fictional characters
fictional motivation is kind of a moot point.

Far from it---all the examples you gave of cuts from the movies---
are decisions----keeping NEW HOPE scaled down was a decision----
the debates we're having here are based on script DECISIONS----pretty
valid to me.

As far as whales dying---and the economy collapsing---
who gives a crud...I'm in love with a cute chick---and I
haven't dedicated myself to the Jedi Order----so I'm in the clear, baby!

[huedell]

I just believe in being thorough is all.

I'll shut up now.

I hope you're not letting Seeker and Vort pummel you into not
acknowledging my last "Jedi/Anakin" post

I mean---a long post after all we did already would be tiring I'll admit---

but ---a quick admission of you hating the Jedi would satisfy me fine.

[Seeker]

Gosh this one would have George Lucas rolling his eyes. I could just see his response (ala William Shatner) "Hey Its just a story man get a life"

Fun is fun. A rousing thread is a rousing thread. Want to write a dissertation. Take a college writing class on popular movies and their effect on society.

[Seeker]

Far from it---all the examples you gave of cuts from the movies---
are decisions----keeping NEW HOPE scaled down was a decision----
the debates we're having here are based on script DECISIONS----pretty
valid to me.

On the contrary none of those points were in the gist of the original thread. The philosophical question posed ,as seen in the movie, was more a result of the films producer and director then anything the characters did in context of the story.

If George knew he was going to make 6 movies in the future he may very well had re worded that line about Vader, Anakin and Luke so it would fit more with what you want it to say.

Remember you are not discussing a real person or real events.

There is 1. The finished movie
2. Georges original screen play, which had scenes which could
explain motivation, cut
3. Georges original ideas which were kind of fluid and changing
because they were bouncing around in his head and not on
paper.

[huedell]

Gosh this one would have George Lucas rolling his eyes. I could just see his response (ala William Shatner) "Hey Its just a story man get a life"

Fun is fun. A rousing thread is a rousing thread. Want to write a dissertation. Take a college writing class on popular movies and their effect on society.

I have a life...thank you.

And I don't like college.

Any other points?

[Seeker]

So the bottom line. Did Obi Wan lie? Yes Because George wanted him to so it would fit with his grand plan (The movie). And since George is GOD in the Star Wars universe Obi Wan had no choice. End of debate.


Now lets get out there and save some Spotted owls or the polar ice caps.

[huedell]

On the contrary none of those points were in the gist of the original thread. The philosophical question posed ,as seen in the movie, was more a result of the films producer and director then anything the characters did in context of the story.

If George knew he was going to make 6 movies in the future he may very well had re worded that line about Vader, Anakin and Luke so it would fit more with what you want it to say.

Remember you are not discussing a real person or real events.

There is 1. The finished movie
2. Georges original screen play, which had scenes which could
explain motivation, cut
3. Georges original ideas which were kind of fluid and changing
because they were bouncing around in his head and not on
paper.

If your post wasn't so detailed and specific explaing the thread in such
a sterile way...I'd care...and actually try to respect what it was trying
to say, and respond in that vein...otherwise, I'll stick to the interesting
conversation I was having with darklord.

Maybe you prefer to debate on what this thread is "about"...
...I'd rather just address the points darklord brought up....whether that's
okay with you or not is a different topic I'd rather not get into
more than I already have.

[Seeker]

So the bottom line. Did Obi Wan lie? Yes Because George wanted him to so it would fit with his grand plan (The movie). And since George is GOD in the Star Wars universe Obi Wan had no choice. End of debate.


Now lets get out there and save some Spotted owls or the polar ice caps.

See above.

[DocDrako]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

I've always thought that Obi-Wan's lie was wrong, but it wasn't until the prequels that it became such a big deal to me. The prequels have given me the impression that most of what Obi-Wan told Luke were lies used to manipulate him into cleaning up a problem that he and the other Jedi created, i.e. Darth Vader. To me, it's like Obi-Wan and Yoda were saying, "We screwed up, so let's use his kids to kill him. We're too old to take care of the problem, so let's let them handle it. We'll tell Luke that Vader murdered his father so that if the two ever meet, Luke will be ready to kill Vader. The Skywalkers are strong with the Force, so if Luke happens to fail, we have Leia as a back-up plan. ("That boy is our last hope"..."No, There is another.") We'll use Luke as a Jedi, and if we can't get rid of the Sith that way, we'll use the Rebellion as a military force to kill them." I'm sure the mythology of the story is way beyond my understanding, and it's over my head, but I digress.

It's like Yoda and Obi-Wan were using deceit to get the job done at all costs. Mind you, I never thought of Yoda and Obi-Wan this way until after the prequels. They've gone from noble warriors to manipulating schemers to me in some respects.

I don't really care for Anakin in the prequels, but reading the debates here has made me realize that for the most part he was trying to do the best he could. The Jedi jaded me so much in the prequels that I almost wanted the Sith to win. If I were in Anakin's shoes, I would have wanted to save my mother. I don't see why he wasn't allowed too. I realize that the Jedi have rules against attachments, but it's his mother. He was attached to her long before the Jedi found him. You can't just expect a child to forget the only person they have been attached to their entire life. I think that Anakin just had a belief that family means more than anything else. I don't fault him for that. Maybe he shouldn't have been a Jedi. When he was given the chance to become a Jedi he said, "Can I go, Mom? It's what I've always wanted." or something like that. But he was a child. I thought I knew what I wanted when I was a child too. I was wrong.

What's wrong with a Jedi taking a personal break and saving his mother's life? It's true that "always in motion is the future" but Anakin didn't create a self-fulfilling prophecy concerning his mother. When he finally went to save her, she was already captured. He had no influence on that. It happened just as he had forseen. Naturally, when he began to have dreams about his wife dying in childbirth, he freaked a little. After all, he was right about his mother. But he was wrong that time. He had no way of knowing that in advance though.

I have to say again that I really don't like Anakin in the prequels. I really don't. Maybe it's the actor, maybe it's the acting. Maybe it's the story. But I don't blame Anakin for what he did. I would have done the same thing and tried to save my mother and wife. I'm sure my tale as a Jedi would have been much like Anakin's. I would have been impulsive, impatient and angry. But then, I don't have midichlorians in my blood so I can't really say what I would have done.

Midichlorians? Come on! What are you doing, George? You don't have to explain how the Force works! It's the Force! I believed it back in 1977 as soon as Obi-Wan explained it to Luke! I "got" it way back then! You don't have to tell me why it works! A human brain can't understand the Force without a symbiotic relationship? I was raised in a christian home. I understand the whole "believe without seeing" thing, George. Wow, I'm really out of control on this Midichlorian thing. (Thanks Denis!)

Anyways, my final word is this:

Because of the prequels, Obi-Wan is nothing but a liar. Almost everything he told Luke was crap. Why? He needed Luke (and possibly Leia) to clean up the mess created by the Jedi order.

Thanks for breaking the galaxy, Jedi Order!



I know it's just a movie, but I care! I care, George! Why did you do it? WHY?!

Wow. I need my medication.

[darklord1967]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

I've always thought that Obi-Wan's lie was wrong, but it wasn't until the prequels that it became such a big deal to me. The prequels have given me the impression that most of what Obi-Wan told Luke were lies used to manipulate him into cleaning up a problem that he and the other Jedi created, i.e. Darth Vader. To me, it's like Obi-Wan and Yoda were saying, "We screwed up, so let's use his kids to kill him. We're too old to take care of the problem, so let's let them handle it. We'll tell Luke that Vader murdered his father so that if the two ever meet, Luke will be ready to kill Vader. The Skywalkers are strong with the Force, so if Luke happens to fail, we have Leia as a back-up plan. ("That boy is our last hope"..."No, There is another.") We'll use Luke as a Jedi, and if we can't get rid of the Sith that way, we'll use the Rebellion as a military force to kill them." I'm sure the mythology of the story is way beyond my understanding, and it's over my head, but I digress.

It's like Yoda and Obi-Wan were using deceit to get the job done at all costs. Mind you, I never thought of Yoda and Obi-Wan this way until after the prequels. They've gone from noble warriors to manipulating schemers to me in some respects.

I don't really care for Anakin in the prequels, but reading the debates here has made me realize that for the most part he was trying to do the best he could. The Jedi jaded me so much in the prequels that I almost wanted the Sith to win. If I were in Anakin's shoes, I would have wanted to save my mother. I don't see why he wasn't allowed too. I realize that the Jedi have rules against attachments, but it's his mother. He was attached to her long before the Jedi found him. You can't just expect a child to forget the only person they have been attached to their entire life. I think that Anakin just had a belief that family means more than anything else. I don't fault him for that. Maybe he shouldn't have been a Jedi. When he was given the chance to become a Jedi he said, "Can I go, Mom? It's what I've always wanted." or something like that. But he was a child. I thought I knew what I wanted when I was a child too. I was wrong.

What's wrong with a Jedi taking a personal break and saving his mother's life? It's true that "always in motion is the future" but Anakin didn't create a self-fulfilling prophecy concerning his mother. When he finally went to save her, she was already captured. He had no influence on that. It happened just as he had forseen. Naturally, when he began to have dreams about his wife dying in childbirth, he freaked a little. After all, he was right about his mother. But he was wrong that time. He had no way of knowing that in advance though.

I have to say again that I really don't like Anakin in the prequels. I really don't. Maybe it's the actor, maybe it's the acting. Maybe it's the story. But I don't blame Anakin for what he did. I would have done the same thing and tried to save my mother and wife. I'm sure my tale as a Jedi would have been much like Anakin's. I would have been impulsive, impatient and angry. But then, I don't have midichlorians in my blood so I can't really say what I would have done.

Midichlorians? Come on! What are you doing, George? You don't have to explain how the Force works! It's the Force! I believed it back in 1977 as soon as Obi-Wan explained it to Luke! I "got" it way back then! You don't have to tell me why it works! A human brain can't understand the Force without a symbiotic relationship? I was raised in a christian home. I understand the whole "believe without seeing" thing, George. Wow, I'm really out of control on this Midichlorian thing. (Thanks Denis!)

Anyways, my final word is this:

Because of the prequels, Obi-Wan is nothing but a liar. Almost everything he told Luke was crap. Why? He needed Luke (and possibly Leia) to clean up the mess created by the Jedi order.

Thanks for breaking the galaxy, Jedi Order!



I know it's just a movie, but I care! I care, George! Why did you do it? WHY?!

Wow. I need my medication.

Extremely well put, DD. I think you do yourself a disservice when you say you are not a good debater.

Although, I must say, I'm not nearly as anti-prequel as you are (I LOVED all three films, and I really liked Hayden Christensen's portrayal of Anakin Skywalker).

But I think the point that many people miss about George Lucas' intentions with the Prequel films is that in many ways he was trying to turn everything you thought you knew about the STAR WARS universe on its ear.

It is a philosophical experiment.

What happens to your viewpoint of the galaxy's 2nd worst monster when you discover that he was basically a brave, loyal, decent, but flawed, brash, angry and frightened young man who was manipulated into making the horrible mistake that transformed him into Darth Vader?

What happens to you opinion of the virtuous Jedi Knights when you discover that many of their teachings (during the days of the Prequel films / Old Republic) actually contradict the Jedi principles stated in the OT? It's really hard to rectify the OT's "Search you feelings", "Trust your feelings", "Reach out with your feelings" approach to Jedi instruction, versus the Prequels' presentation of "A jedi shall not know attachment, possesssion or love".

Fundementally, much of what we thought we knew about the ways of the Jedi from the OT films were somewhat inaacurate. That's probably because the picture that we got of the Jedi and their philosophy were presented by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda.

But they are only two Jedi. And to complicate matters further, they each have unique differing viewpoints of what it is to be a Jedi.

The prequels showed us that the Jedi were many things... not just what we thought they were from Yoda and Kenobi's OT descriptions.

This is key.

We learned that not everything about the Jedi were so virtuous or perfect. They were flawed too. They made mistakes too. They were guilty of vanity and pride and stubborn tradition... all of which contributed to their fall.

Don't misunderstand me. I am NOT anti-Jedi (despite what my debate partner Huedell might think). And I most certainly I am NOT pro-Sith.

I think the Sith are evil, vile, selfish, destructive, amd horrible individuals... including Darth Vader.

But I also feel that the full picture we've now been given demonstrates that the Jedi were not nearly as virtuous as they seemed from the OT. We've seen that they had a lot of bad qualities and overly-rigid beliefs that contributed to a lot of disharmony.

Their intentions were good. But the results of their actions and archaic beliefs sometimes weren't.

Lastly, let me just say that I don't have any of the same issues as some of you with George Lucas' introduction of the concept of Midichlorians.

To me, this was just another newly revealed facet of an old concept (The Force) that was originally presented in the OT.

It was the (brief) exploration of the idea that virtually all of the "mystical" and magical mysteries of the universe are merely phenomena that have not been scientifically observed, documented, etc.

To me, The Force is no less powerful or magical or mystical because of the introduction of the concept of Midichlorians.

Midochlorians are NOT The Force itself.

As Qui-Gon Ginn explained, Midichlorians are only microscopic organisms that basically provide the LIVING LINK between individuals and The Force itself.

As symbiotic organisms within their host body they continually communicate The Will of The Force to the host.

I think of midichlorians as a physical microscopic representation of the human phsyche... intuition... the human instinct... continuously whispering in your ear how to proceed through life.

There is a definitive "right and wrong" (or more to the point, a "lightness and a darkness) that resides within that nebulous energy field that formed and continues to expand the universe... The Force.

But that nebulous Force itself has no preference between the light and the dark sides. They just exist. They just... are.

"Preferences" only come from individuals who tap into that energy, and select the way they choose to utilize it... for constructive, cooperative, helpful purposes... or for selfish, destructive, non-inclusive purposes.

An individual (through the gift of free-will) can choose which aspect of The Force (light or dark) to embrace.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

I don't debate well, so I'm not going to. But I do want to say a couple things. I've been a Star Wars fan since 1977 and I'm still a fan. The prequels don't sit well with me, but that's mostly because I have imagined how it (the history of Darth Vader) all happened ever since 1977. George Lucas' vision of his story is not the same vision I had as a kid growing up. But then, it's his story.

Wow. I need my medication.

WOW - I LOVED this Post. Thanks Doc!

[Gorn Captain]

Some great posts here, and it goes to show that you can agree to disagree, and that you don't have to bite the nose off someone who has another opinion.

Personally, I see the mistakes made by Kenobi and the jedi order NOT as a deliberate deception, but basically they showed all faults us humans have. They made mistakes, didn't own up to them, or not nearly enough, and thought of themselves that they were absolutely right about most things.
If we do that, we crash our car into something, hurt someone's feelings, etc. If Jedi do this, the universe will suffer.
I refuse to see Kenobi and Yoda as "bad persons", liars and deceivers, just people who got caught up in a poorly-handled situation. They messed up, and continued to do so.
It happens to all of us!
It's a good thing we don't have Force Powers here, imagine the mess!
I would have Force-choked so many people already!

I'm still on the side of the Jedi, even though they made terrible mistakes. Anakin not being allowed to save his mother is on them, 100%. I would have deserted the Jedi ranks long ago, and it shows how dedicated and basically a good person he was.

To me, he was still a young and easily-influenced person, who messed up. In our universe, it's kids on drugs, in the SW universe it's kids on Dark Side. Same difference.
Do we consider these kids "evil"?
Think twice before you answer.
Don't judge too quickly.
'cause we make mistakes, too.
Have you NEVER lied to anyone?
Doubtful.

And before you know it, we'll all be dressed in black leather and breathing through a skull-shaped oxygen-mask.
The human-and Jedi-condition is not so easy to judge...

One last remark: I love these longer posts. Keep them coming. If you don't enjoy them, just skip them!

[huedell]

Hey guys.

I guess it's filtering down to this....this "holding the Jedi responsible" for
keeping Anakin from his mother...I just don't buy it.

The Jedi had a code that worked...they couldn't make exceptions.

Anakin...bless his soul..wanted to buck the "Jedi trend" WITH his mother
WITH Padme in addition to bucking it WITH starting too old and WITH
anger for not being granted certain things he wasn't deemed deserving of
by a whole council of people older and wiser than him.

The only sensible things here would've been for Anakin to have
been humble and respectful to the Jedi order...OR for the Jedi not to ever
have agreed to train Anakin in the first place.

If the Jedi were ever guilty of ANYthing in this case...it's allowing
Anakin to be trained.

---------------------------------------

As far as what DocDrako had to say about Ben and Yoda---YES
they were using Luke to kill off Vader because they couldn't do it themselves
----but they were also doing many other thinbgs at the same time, training
him....and preparing him.

I mean...do you really think they didn't know Vader would've revealed the
truth to Luke eventually?

Yoda and Ben were "Pacing" themselves....ya know?

But...that Skywalker blood...just couldn't sit still
(Always on the move!)

Yoda, Ben and the Jedi "creating the problem that was Vader?"

Mayyyyyyybe.

AGAIN....ONLY if you subscribe to the idea that the Jedi
shouldn't have accepted Anakin/Vader into Jedi training to begin with.

[Raydeen1]

Not going to type lengthy posts but I love Star Wars and I've ben thinking about this since last night.

Anikan was in a state of turmoil and when he went to the Jedi for help, they pushed him aside. He was in a vulnerable state and they pushed him right in to the waiting hands of Palpatine who manipulated him.

I have no doubt in mind this is what transpired. Jedi rules or not, they did NOTHING to help him.

When Luke had questions, Ben and Yoda answered him as best they could. Anikan, they basically said: "It's on a need to know basis and you don't need to know". Not those same words but the same result.

I also have a feeling Palpatine had a role in Anikan's mother's death. It was never stated but he had been manipluating him for some time. I wouldn't be surprised.

ABSOLUTELY the Jedi should have trained Anikan. However, it should NOT have been OBI Wan who did so. An older, more experienced Jedi would have been a much better choice. Mace Windu perhaps. (EDIT) Yoda should have trained "The CHosen One". NOBODY else should have. He was the be all,end all and should have been the teaher of this phenom. OBI Wan was not much older than Anikan and had only just become a Jedi. He had no business training the "Chosen One". ANother Padiwan, yes, Anikan, NO.

Had the Jedi not trained Anikan, he would have fallen to Palpatine much sooner. The Jedi didn't try nearly hard enough to keep him on the right path. Near as I can tell, they didn't really teach him anything. They were, in a nutshell, jerks to Anikan. They messed up.

I'll add a quote from ObiWan to Luke: "Bury your feelings deep down Luke, theydo you credit but the could be made to serve the Emporer". He didn't tell Luke he COULDN'T have hose feelings.
Was Luke told he COULDN'T go to Bespin to help Han, Leia and Chewie? NO. He was told he SHOULDN'T. Apply this to Anikan wanting to help his mother. RIGHT there tells me the Jedi weren't all that stringent. OR, they learned from their mistakes with Anikan.