For STAR WARS fans: A Philosophical Question

[darklord1967]

Much anger about Obi-Wan, I sense in you, Darklord1967.

Good one! Well, I suppose I DO find Kenobi's words somewhat reprehensible.

I disagree about quite a few things in this thread ( and I could talk about this for hours)

Please DO!! I'm not sure if you disagree with some of the points stated throughout this thread OR if (more specifically) you disagree with some of MY stated opinions.

Either way, please indicate which specific points you disagree with so that we can have a more targeted discussion.

but one thing I must say: the Jedi handled their affairs all wrong.
Take Anakin's case: he is forced to leave his (slave) mother behind, not allowed to look back, or save her. They leave this to brood in him for, what, over ten years?
They force him to push aside normal feeling of love and commitment.
No wonder the guy goes awol and starts slaughtering Sand People!
No wonder he turns against them.

When it comes down to it, they force an unnatural life on many of their Jedi knights.
Anakin made his own choice, but the Jedi Council surely pushed him right to the very edge first.

Couldn't agree with you more on this point. We're on the same page.

If Ben lied to Luke, well, sometimes a lie is kinder than the truth. It depends on many factors.

Well, here's where I think we may disagree. Yes, sometimes a lie IS kinder than the truth.

However in THIS particular instance, it is NOT... at least not in my view.

Obi-Wan's lie (Anakin' brutal "murder" at the hands of Darth Vader) was certainly NOT "kinder" than the truth (Anakin's dark-side seduction and continued life transformed into another individual)

Just look at Luke's face when he hears of Anakin's "murder". He is shocked and horrified.

Learning the truth may very well have been easier for Luke to stomach... even at that point. He was emotionally quite resilient.

It's like I said before: Kenobi was never interested in anyone's feelings, nor was he interested in being "kind".

Emotional kindness toward others really does not seem to be a major priority for the Jedi... at least not for Ben Kenobi.

He certainly was NOT "kind" during his RETURN OF THE JEDI clarification "fess-up" speech. No regrets. No apologies to Luke for being so blatantly misleading.

No, Kenobi's original lie was designed mainly to cover up HIS OWN failures regarding Anakin and his transformation into Vader... and to avoid chronicling a painful past for the inquiring young man.

The only reason for Kenobi's (possible) consideration of Luke's feelings at that point was to avoid the farmboy's refusal to become a Jedi, and to avoid his refused assistance in defeating Vader and the Empire.

And Kenobi was probably correct in that assessment. Luke probably would NOT have joined a crusade against Vader if he knew up front that the Sith Lord was his dad.

However, I doubt strongly that Luke would have JOINED Vader either... knowing what a vile personality he had become.

Luke was far too virtuous a personality for that.

All indications are that Luke would have proposed the only remaining alternative: The redemption of Anakin Skywalker... not his destruction.

Of course this would have gone against Yoda and Kenobi's agenda.

Ironically, Luke's solution would STILL have required jedi training.

I wouldn't focus on any possible lies that were told-or not-, but more on that certain arrogance of the Jedi, to believe in their own infallibility.

Well I certainly think that I covered the arrogance of the Jedi quite thoroughly in my posts. However, i DO believe that this arrogance, and belief in infallibility were at the very CORE of Kenobi's lie to Luke in the first place.

[Gorn Captain]

Ok. Here's how I see it.
I must tread carefully here, as not to offend people.

I think the failure of the jedi order is symbolic of many "organized religions". They lose sight of the individual people and their needs, impose doctrin and a set of rules. But they forget that they are still people themselves, therefore fallible. They structure a hierarchy, in which all ranks are supposed to "impose" on lower ranks. Kenobi was, I feel, a decent man, entangled in that hierarchy. He wasn't playing by his own rules. He was imposing doctrin.
I agree with you that he could have handled it differently. That the scene in ROTJ could have been more of a confession and apology than it was. To be honest, I feel that the character of Ben was handled poorly in this scene, by all parties involved. This was an important scene, that didn't receive enough attention from the creators (writer/director/actor). Guinness sleepwalked through it (much like Ford for Solo). The director didn't have enough drive. Pity we can't blame it on the Ewoks....

But basically, for me, Ben's failure (in training, in handling Luke,...) is a big part the failure of the Order, and their views on how to run it. Once a "religious" structure becomes bigger, and starts imposing, the fundamental concepts gets warped. The Force is all about Nature, and feelings, connecting with that power. The Jedi Order, unfortunately, lost sight of that. They focused on their own rules, not thinking how this affected their followers, and that other beings not necessarily played by the same rules.
Hence the Rise of the Sith. The pointless death of Qui-Gon. I feel HE would have handled Anakin a lot better, being a bit of a rogue Jedi himself, though the fact that he left Anakin's mother behind could point towards his own blindness.

I DO believe in the inherent kindness of Ben, but he handled many things poorly. He followed Jedi doctrin like a slave, and went down with it. The same for Yoda. A tragic mistake. They did everything wrong in Anakin's case.
To be honest, even at the end of part III, Ben should have either saved Anakin or killed him, not some weak "I won't kill you".

But, do not forget, we all have weaknesses. Perhaps we should empathise with Ben, learn from his mistakes. An unyielding "verdict" on the man, would make us a rigid as the extinct Jedi order. We must be more flexible and adaptable, my friend. That is the way of the Force.

[darklord1967]

Hmmm.

Eloquently and beautifully stated, GC.

I was particularly struck by your assessment that an "unyeilding verdict" on Kenobi makes one as rigid as the extinct Jedi Order.

A kick in the chicklets if I ever read it, but certainly (grudgingly) true, I must admit.

In a few brief lines, you've really shown me something vital here... something even about myself that I was unaware of.

For that, I thank you.

[Gorn Captain]

No problem.
Now this is the kind of debate that I like.
We might not always agree of everything, but wouldn't that turn out to be "a boring conversation anyway"...

I love SW, on many levels. As a fun SF flick, an exciting adventure.
But there's more.
The concept of the Force touches me "in reality" as well. I stay away from any organized "groups" (in politics, religion, even fan clubs ). I respect the views of others, and am happy that they can find their fulfilment in it. As long as it is not imposed on me. I feel that it is a basic core of The Force, that respect is needed for everything, be it a person, a group, or even something as seemingly simple as a tree, a mountain or river.
I'd think we'd all be better off it that respect and empathy were to run through our society. Because that is what The Force, and Lucas' creation, is to me. That bond with our universe. It saddens me, that at times I feel he himself has lost a bit of that bond.

His walk of life seems to follow that of Anakin, I feel. Too much obsession with machines and the idea that "we can do anything". That is arrogance. It could be our downfall.
This morning, I read that that machine in Switserland, that particle accelerator that might create black holes, had to be shut down due to "overheating". They say "that is normal, nothing to worry about". Hm. "OVERheating". Is that normal?
Should we "pervert" Nature, simply because we can?
Is that not the way of the Dark Side?

I believe Lucas had something fundamental to say about our society.
About reaching out to Nature, the Supreme Force.
About what goes wrong if you mess with it. When you feel that YOU are better than other people, than any living being, than our planet that sustains us.

We have the same arrogance as the Jedi at times. We're top of the food chain, you know. I'm afraid that our lesson in humility might be as devastating as the Jedi Council found out.
That is why I try not to judge people too harshly, but I'm just as weak as all around me at times. That's what makes us human. There's no fault in being human, but there IS in not acknowledging your mistakes, and soon enough, so you can live to tell the tale and move along and grow.

We're going through dark times now.
"All Arabs are terrorists."
"All Westerners are heathen dogs."
Jews killing Palestines, and vice-versa. Most of Africa is engulfed in war, famine, drought and AIDS.

In a way, we're going through our Clone Wars now, an enhanced version of the Crusades and Middle Ages,but with better weapons. We have Death Stars now. Annihilating Power.

It's time to reach out to what binds us.
I couldn't think of a better concept that The Force.

One last word on old Ben K.
Flawed characters are sometimes the best ones. As a teaching aid. A learning experience. My favourite character in LOTR is...Boromir. Arguably, the most...human among them. I could feel his struggle, his need to do right, his failing to do so. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. White Knights are heroes, Black Knights are the clear Nemesis, but it's the ones in between that are the interesting ones.
'cause that's us!

[Mego Milk]

Yes. Obi Wan lied.

So did R2 and Yoda.
They never told Luke about his dad neither.

Freakin' Jedis.

[Seeker]

Yes. Obi Wan lied.

So did R2 and Yoda.
They never told Luke about his dad neither.

Freakin' Jedis.

Yes very well said. Now lets have 5 more pages of long posts looking at that bit by bit.

[Vortigern99]

Darklord, you seem so intent on proving that Kenobi was a liar that you're missing the point and purpose of his falsehood (in-universe). Is a parent a reprehensible liar who tells his children that Santa Claus brought them their Christmas presents? How about adoptive parents who hide the truth of their child's birth until he's old enough to carry the burden? Sometimes a lie is harmless; sometimes it's a necessity.

Luke Skywalker was a young, naive farmboy who was only just learning about a larger world that included the Force and the reasons for the struggle between the Rebellion and the Empire. If Kenobi had told Luke the truth -- that his biological father was a Sith lord who served a genocidal tyrant -- it's probable and likely that Luke would have questioned himself -- "Am I also evil at heart?" -- when what the Galaxy needed at that time was a hero, confident in his own goodness and heroism. During Luke's trench run on the Death Star, would Luke have had the peace of mind, the Zen state required to give himself over to the Force, if he had known that his own father was a despicable murderer? I say not -- he would have been plagued by doubts, consumed by questions of his own worth as a hero and wielder of the Force.

The success of the Rebellion and the fate of the Galaxy rested in Luke's hands, and Kenobi knew it. He was wholly justified in keeping the truth from Luke. Yoda, on his deathbed, accuses Luke of running away from his training before he was ready for the burden of his true paternity; Luke, to his credit, apologizes. This amounts to an admission that he was not yet ready to know the truth.

Say what you will about Kenobi's character, accusing him of all manner of misdeeds while bewlideringly elevating Anakin, an incipient Sith Lord, to the status of "model Jedi". At the end of the day, Kenobi's story of Vader vs. Anakin was a necessary untruth, designed to protect a young hero from the burden of knowledge that would have undone his burgeoning confidence and sense of worth.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Hey Dark Lord. . . .can you link to our last discussion. . . .I had a poke around but didn't find it. I am just way too lazy to read all this thread again. . .or write out my views again. . . .so would love to find the last debate on this and get it linked. Do you remember where it was?

[Gorn Captain]

Darklord, you seem so intent on proving that Kenobi was a liar that you're missing the point and purpose of his falsehood (in-universe).

Much anger about Darklord, I sense in you, Vortigern99.

Can I offer everyone my new Sith Lord Anger Management (SLAM) course?
It's only $99.99, and permits for the use of only two Force Chokes during the whole course.
Two free rebel Soldiers are included, should further "venting" be needed.


Seriously.
As you can read in my previous post, I, too, cut Ben a bit more slack, though I have to agree with Darklord, that the jedi sure messed things up, for the order, for themselves personally, and for Anakin.
Life sure can throw you some curves....

[Gorn Captain]

Yes very well said. Now lets have 5 more pages of long posts looking at that bit by bit.

I'd thought you'd never ask!
Great idea!

Let me put my 3000 page essay on The Force in my next post!

[Gorn Captain]

Page 1: I hate flying R2s!

[Seeker]

I'd thought you'd never ask!
Great idea!

Let me put my 3000 page essay on The Force in my next post!

What you mean how in episodes 4-6 the force was a universal energy that linked all living things. That it was something that anyone truely attuned to nature and had a zen like concentration could use.

While in episode 1-3 the force was just a special power granted by microscopic bugs running around in a beings blood stream?

[Gorn Captain]

What you mean how in episodes 4-6 the force was a universal energy that linked all living things. That it was something that anyone truley attuned to nature and had a zen like concentration could use.

While in episode 1-3 the force was just a special power granted by microscopic bugs running around in a beings blood stream?

Aha!
So you haven't read the scripts of episodes 7-9?

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

I thought the Force was some kind of VD / STD (Sensually transmitted Disease). . .you know like "The Clap" = "the Force" You've got THE CLAP. . . . .You have THE FORCE!

That is why Anikan has SO DARN MUCH OF IT. . . .he is the son of a slave girl. . . .she had contracted it from mutants and aliens from around the galaxy. . . . hardly surprising his infection rate was off the scale.

How come there were no Jedi Comedians???????

I would like to see Obi Wan use that Jedi Mind trick to tell a Storm Trooper busting to go to the toilet. . . ."you don't need to go to the toilet " (waves hand majestically in front of the storm trooper)
STORM TROOPER: (says to other storm troopers) "I don't need to go to the toilet!"
OBI WAN : . . . . "you are in NO Hurry" . . . . .(waves other hand majestically)
STORM TROOPER: "I am in NO HURRY!"
OBI WAN : . . . . ."just relax and think of waterfalls and rainy days. . . .no. . . . you don't need to go to the toilet. . . .relax. . . .relax".
STORM TROOPER: " oh KRAP. . . . .my right leg feels REALLY warm. . . . .how am I gonna get that out of my boot. Great. . . now my coms system is short circuiting. . ..UUGGHHH ! "

[Raydeen1]

Wow.
I actually hadn't read this thread and I've just gone through a few posts.

Let me start by saying, the Star Wars movies are my all time favorite movies, perhaps moreso than POTA. I've watched them probably in the 100s.

I hated that OBI Wan lied to Luke. I understand why he did but it always bugged me. He lied. Period. However, his motiviation was justified from my POV.

That said, if the story is truly as shown in Episodes 1, 2 and 3, it was the Jedi who were to blame. They pushed Anikan to the dark side. Palpatine took advantage of it. Anikan turned because he looked to his peers and mentors for help and they ignored him and pushed him aside. Anikan was in pain over his mother and they kept pushing him aside so he took matters into his own hands as I'm sure most people would. It started and the Jedi just kept pushing him further and further into Palpatine's hands.
It was the Jedi who failed and Luke saved everyone's bacon in the end. With a little help from his friends.

I hated the medichlorines or whatever they are. STUPID. Way to ruin an interesting and thought provoking faith. The Force lost its mystique and they turned it into a super power. DUMBDUMBDUMB!!!!!!

I hated MANY things about Episodes 1, 2 and 3 like alot of folks and mostly the same things. However, and I kid you not, I got misty eyed during the scene with Anikan and OBI Wan. Say what you want but I thougt Ewan McGregor's portrayal during that last scene with ANikan was utterly brilliant. You could feel the pain in his words. I honestly got choked up. That scene alone, dispite how horrible alot of the movie was, made it worth it for me.