Major DC Character To Be Outed As Gay

[PNGwynne]

DC has done some good things within their former "Universe" regarding gay themes, inclusiveness, & visibility.

We've seen gay heroes (Obsidian, Estrano, Starman Mikaal, Batwoman), gay supporting cast (Superman, GL, Flash, WW), even gay villains (Pied Piper, Cavalier & Capt. Stingaree).

Aside from Denny O'Neil's rather heavy-handed & stereotypical depiction of the Joker as fey in a few '70s stories, these depictions were story-driven. If elements were added to lesser, established or supporting characters, it was done in an unsensational way.

I don't advocate DC messing about, any more than they already do, with classic established characters: Not Robin, not Aquaman, not Jimmy Olsen. It's disrespectful to fans & creators.

I'm not suddenly going to embrace a character because of their orientation--it wil depend on the writing & context. If DC wants to take an established supporting character & "make them gay," it will only be successful--as it has been with Obsidian & Piper--if written well.

This media statement by DC is sensationalistic marketing IMO: At worst, it is cashing in; at best, it is too little, too late, and a disservice to classic creations.

The "alter-ego" of superheroes can be seen as a type of closet--super-hero comics could explore this duality one step further by having a gay hero who is closeted & acts out as a hero, or even vice-verse. This was explored satirically in Veitch's Brat Pack.

But to do it glibly, to pander, to distort the core of an iconic character, is not only a disservice to gay fans, but to all fans.

[Figuremod73]

All the gimmicks in the world cant beat good writing.

Thats the number 1 issue with comics now. They have ran off MOST of the talented folks who knew what good comics were.

[JediJaida]

Why can't the bigwigs at DC just leave well enough alone?

First, they retcon everything in the 80's, which was bad enough. Then, they do it AGAIN this year!

NOW, they want to change the orientation of an established character just because they want to be seen as progressive?

Pardon my French but WTH???

That doesn't make ANY kind of sense.

This is all a gimmick to sell more comics and increase the fan base.

Which is all a bunch of hooey.

If they really, REALLY want tin increase sales and the fan base, all they have to do is WRITE BETTER STORIES!!!!!

Or...does that make too much sense?

That is why I prefer to read more independent comics, which don't have a large fan base, but their plotlines do make sense, the art is pretty cool, and the characters aren't tired retreads of the usual stuff.

[Kotter]

Six pages of posts peppered with homophobic, sophomoric humor that hasn't been in style since the '50s & '60s is proof enough of that, IMO. Jimsmegoes' comment about the probable media reaction is apparent here, too: "tasteless gay jokes about the rest of the characters..."

Doubtless, I'll be decried as an over-sensitive, politically-correct militant out to spoil the Forum's butch locker-room good-fellowship.

And really, I'm not. It just seems to me that it's derailing a substantive discussion. As a courtesy of public discourse, I wouldn't denigrate hetero behavior in the way that several here feel free to joke about gay life.

I guess I just want to say, bluntly, "Grow up."

+1!!!!

[megojim]

I just read this today on Drudge . . . . if this wasn't an obvious marketing ploy and/or a move to political correctness (what a contradiction in terms), I wouldn't have an issue with it. I'm saddened that DC is basically floundering and grasping at straws to drive business. It's not a good sign. If the story lines and such were good they wouldn't have to reinvent stuff over and over and the presense of a Gay character would be seen as just part of a compelling story line. Marvel has it figured out and knows that the future of their charaters and their success is not in print form.

[ctc]

>X-Men style soap opera really doesn't hold a candle to the much more complex and nuanced stories that the Los Bros Hernandez or Terry Moore have been mining for decades prior.

I still think that’s ‘cos of the perpetual nature of the superhero books. I suspect that’s why so many team books have ben heralded as being awesome: you can juggle the team and make stuff feel new without really changing things.

*sigh*

>Diverse POV's are really important to building bridges of empathy between all kinds of folks

Plus, it doesn’t do anybody any good if everyone has the same opinion. The whole point of public discourse is to expose your ideas to different ones, thus facilitating greater input and a chance to test theories.

>I thought Gail Simone portrayed WW as a lesbian years ago.

That’s actually how the original was portrayed. Well, more bi I guess. They were kinda vague.... and kinda not, if you check out #4:

5 Superhero Movie Scenes They'll Never Let You See | Cracked.com

It’s one of them artefacts from years gone by that nobody really knows what to do with any more. Especially after the 50's kiddifying of the old characters.

>They should just make a character and their sexuality is merely a facet of who s/he is from the get-go.

Yes, they should. They WON’T; ‘cos any opportunity for press boosts sales.... I wouldn’t think a gay character would be a big deal because:

- in the average superhero setting you encounter so many strange things I suspect old prejudices like ethnicity and orientation wouldn’t rate any more.

-I suspect that this sort of thing isn’t a big deal for the audience any more either. Well.... not MOST of them. There’s still gonna be some holdouts:

How Archie's Gay Friend Proved the Internet Can Do Good | Cracked.com

....but I don’t think the average person’s gonna be phased. Except by the inevitable press blitz that’ll play it up like some kind of big, new thing.

Don C.

[Den82]

I say leave the old characters be. I know times change, but I do like seeing old things changed to suite the day or please any one group of people. Just create a new hero.

I'm not a racist or a homophobic, but at the same time, I do not like forced acceptance or diversity and I especially do not like it when it's corporate (either to get everyone to buy your product or make headlines).

Then again, I don't really too much as I do not read nor have any interest in anything comic book related after the mid-80s and not too long ago I found myself shaking my head as I overhead a comic book/toy dealer and some young customs making gay jokes and going off on homophobic rants over Gambit and acting as if looking at anything even related to the character must mean you're gay.

[PNGwynne]

I think your contribution would be invaluable to the discussion at hand. Diverse POV's are really important to building bridges of empathy between all kinds of folks from all walks of life in our rapidly shrinking planet.

Otherwise, as you point out, it's just a roomful of straight guys lacking that perspective or ability to perceive the situation from a different angle because it's outside our own individual understanding.

There was a recent discussion about adoptees for example where most of us (myself included) were rather flip, but I think it does help to bring things into perspective when one of our own speaks up that their experience and perception of it is much different than the rest, and it causes you to re-evaluate.

Thank you for the encouragement. Ironically, my sister & I are adopted--I decided to ignore the Loki-adoptee thread because I just didn't want to traverse that mine-field.

I just saw Avengers today & enjoyed it. Thor's line about Loki didn't get a big laugh at my theatre. I was ready for it but it still rankled slightly. The line says more about Thor's character than anything else--I try to keep in mind that Clark Kent is adopted, too.


I'm still considering exactly how I feel about DC's announcement. I've largely dropped comics & the characters I love because of (IMO) DC's glib, inept handling of the most mythic heroes in comicdom, so I'm not well-informed about storylines after Identity Crisis. I supose I've missed some good in the restructuring of the Green Lantern saga & the reintroduction of Hal & Barry, but what has been done to Batman & Aquaman in the last decade has really put me off.

[torgospizza]

Wonder Woman's been a bondage queen for years...maybe.

No idea why I ever thought this, but I thought Gail Simone portrayed WW as a lesbian years ago.

My only concern about this sort of thing is whether or not it's true to the character. I can see DC fooling themselves into thinking they're engaging in some sort of cultural engineering--"Isn't it about time this character was able to be true to himself? It's 2012, people!"--but I think the timing reeks of a sales gimmick and they've forgotten they are storytellers. If it comes off as a cheap grab for sales or as untrue to the nature of the character, they're only succeeding in insulting gays and creating an amateurish product, and I'm not interested in either of those things. Well-meaning morons are still morons, ultimately.

They should just make a character and their sexuality is merely a facet of who s/he is from the get-go. Isn't that how we all are, anyway? That's a single aspect of a person. You don't go to the store and get waited on by--I don't know--Dave Anderson, heterosexual meatcutter: "How thick did you want those ribeyes, sir? And did I mention I'm super, super straight?" That's not how anyone is, unless they're seriously damaged in some way. I suppose I'm saying I don't think highly enough of DC's editors to expect them to know that much about actual human beings and deliver something that invokes quality. The character will probably be killed in a year or the retcon will be retconned, anyway--I'm not expecting honest-to-God trailblazing out of them.

[samurainoir]

But I suspect few others here are much interested in my perspective.

I think your contribution would be invaluable to the discussion at hand. Diverse POV's are really important to building bridges of empathy between all kinds of folks from all walks of life in our rapidly shrinking planet.

Otherwise, as you point out, it's just a roomful of straight guys lacking that perspective or ability to perceive the situation from a different angle because it's outside our own individual understanding.

There was a recent discussion about adoptees for example where most of us (myself included) were rather flip, but I think it does help to bring things into perspective when one of our own speaks up that their experience and perception of it is much different than the rest, and it causes you to re-evaluate.

[samurainoir]

>; how much of mainstream comics was either "borrowed" from the independents and undergrounds, or resulted from parrallel development.... with the mainstream stuff invariably a watered down, schlocked up version which garnered all the attention from the world at large.

Complete agreement. X-Men style soap opera really doesn't hold a candle to the much more complex and nuanced stories that the Los Bros Hernandez or Terry Moore have been mining for decades prior. Or more recent literary prize winning stuff like Alison Bechdale's Fun Home.

I think the biggest difference though is whether you are preaching to the converted in the small press, or being allowed a larger platform (including the discourse) that the mainstream exposure creates. I doubt a casual chat about Maggie and Hopey would have pulled as many people into this discussion as Nightwing and Aquaman obviously did.

[ctc]

>That is completely inaccurate given the media circus and controversy that issue of Alpha Flight generated twenty years ago in both the mainstream and fan press.

Y'know.... I don't remember it getting that much attention at the time. Maybe I didn't notice, maybe it got drowned out by the hype machine that was quickly dominating mainstream comics.

>it's place in history (including a GLAAD media award) is pretty much guaranteed

....awww man; you're trying to ruin my day, aren't you?

>when you look at a creator like Howard Cruse for example, working in undergrounds/indies up to twenty years prior to northstar coming out, has never garnered mainstream headlines and media attention in this manner.

You're DEFINITELY trying to ruin my day, since I like a lot of his stuff.

And it illustrates one of the things that bothered the horque out of me when I was a kid; how much of mainstream comics was either "borrowed" from the independents and undergrounds, or resulted from parrallel development.... with the mainstream stuff invariably a watered down, schlocked up version which garnered all the attention from the world at large. Which is why stories like this don't phase me; I know it's gonna be some lightweigt story that doesn't address any real issues, is presented in such a way as to be innocuous and relatively inoffensive, (and barely noticable) and it'll all go away with next year's reboot.

Dwayne McDuffie | Web Column Archives

HAW! That's great! Well.... not great; it's kinda sad really, but the end makes up for it.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

>Northstar didn't get married twenty years ago and probably wouldn't have been able to two decades ago.

True; but this kinda smacks as them taking a mulligan on Northstar ‘cos nobody really cared 20 years ago.
Don C.

That is completely inaccurate given the media circus and controversy that issue of Alpha Flight generated twenty years ago in both the mainstream and fan press.

It's pretty telling that it's the only issue of Alpha Flight that ever went to a second printing. As crass and exploitative as that story was at the time (AIDS Baby), it's place in history (including a GLAAD media award) is pretty much guaranteed when you look at a creator like Howard Cruse for example, working in undergrounds/indies up to twenty years prior to northstar coming out, has never garnered mainstream headlines and media attention in this manner. it was probably necessary to pave the way for a more sensitive portrayal of same sex relationships twenty years later in the pages of Astonishing X-men (it took sixteen years after his outing for Northstar to get a boyfriend). This of course was after Jim Shooters regime, where the only gay characters ever portrayed, tried to rape the Hulk in the shower at the Y (also written by Shooter).

Just to give some perspective on where Archie Comics were at during that same period (1992), a storyline introducing a African American love interest for Betty was nixed by one of the head honchos... And the character was colored caucasian before disappearing.
Dwayne McDuffie | Web Column Archives

[PNGwynne]

I'd be curious how our gay members here feel about this.

From our past conversations, Scott, I know that you honestly mean this. But I suspect few others here are much interested in my perspective.

Six pages of posts peppered with homophobic, sophomoric humor that hasn't been in style since the '50s & '60s is proof enough of that, IMO. Jimsmegoes' comment about the probable media reaction is apparent here, too: "tasteless gay jokes about the rest of the characters..."

Doubtless, I'll be decried as an over-sensitive, politically-correct militant out to spoil the Forum's butch locker-room good-fellowship.

And really, I'm not. It just seems to me that it's derailing a substantive discussion. As a courtesy of public discourse, I wouldn't denigrate hetero behavior in the way that several here feel free to joke about gay life.

I guess I just want to say, bluntly, "Grow up."

[ctc]

>Perfect way to NOT regain the children's market.

Yeah, but they said a while back that this reboot isn’t about bringing in the kids. Which is the root of my problem when they do stuff like this: they want to say “look at us, we’re dealing with some pretty heavy stuff!” but they invariably downplay it so’s to maintain a sense of plausible deniability. So you get stuff that’s not appropriate for kids, but not serious enough to interest a grownup.

>Those newspaper articles always says "Pow! Splat! comics aren't for kids anymore!" but I don't feel they're grown up either

They haven’t, because they never really deal with any issues. It’s there.... but not.

Well.... unless you go with the undergrounds or independents.... but we all know REAL comics feature capes and tights.

But you gotta wonder, in a superhero world would anyone care about ethnicity or sexual orientation? Marvel’s got their mutant scare.... would that trump the old prejudices? DC is littered with aliens, lost races, extradimensional beings.... would fear of those unify humanity?

>Northstar didn't get married twenty years ago and probably wouldn't have been able to two decades ago.

True; but this kinda smacks as them taking a mulligan on Northstar ‘cos nobody really cared 20 years ago. ‘Course it could just be the current iteration of Marvel and DC reliving the 80's over and over again.

Don C.