Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[samurainoir]

So why does Wonder Woman not have much of a Rogues Gallery at all given that she is part of DC's Big Three?

Cheetah, Ares and Circe have certainly made the list, but I think they go back to Circe way too often these days. I really don't think the likes of Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan and Egg Foo are really cutting it too much. Paula Von Gunther isn't really seen too often these days is she?

Maybe with Maxwell Lord back, they can take the opportunity to use him as a Wonder Woman Big Bad. He's certainly got an axe to grind with her.

Given her emphasis on old world Gods, I always wondered why they didn't try to pit her against the New Gods more... Darkseid to me seems like he's better suited as a Wonder Woman villain than a Superman bad guy in that regard.

[huedell]

Riddler's step into the spotlight is definitely all down to Gorshin's gonzo '66 antics. Prior to that he was a minor Batman villain at best, and had only appeared a handful of times. It's been speculated that the Riddler was chosen for the premiere episode because Riddler's appearance in Batman #171 happened to be the issue on the newsstands when the show went into development.

I think I read that about RIDDLER/BATMAN 66 as well.

THE RIDDLER's "gimmick" is also perfect for a silly show like BATMAN '66
(and the SUPER FRIENDS for that matter) i just can't gel with him otherwise
...as in judging his value overall...if he didn't tickle me in BTAS then I say its
a strikeout IMO....same goes for PENGUIN in STAS....a good litmus test.

I know if Nolan took a shot at RIDDLER there'd be a way of making him SO
deliciously dangerous that it'd be a "step in the right direction".

[samurainoir]

I have to admit that the more I think about the RIDDLER, the more
I see the connection with BATMAN's "detective" aspect altho' I think
I don't respect the character because I never could get in synch
with a villain that thrived off of giving brain teasers no matter how much
it tied into BATMAN's character.

Riddler's step into the spotlight is definitely all down to Gorshin's gonzo '66 antics. Prior to that he was a minor Batman villain at best, and had only appeared a handful of times. It's been speculated that the Riddler was chosen for the premiere episode because Riddler's appearance in Batman #171 happened to be the issue on the newsstands when the show went into development.

[huedell]

Incidentally... since many here are being so dang literal about the thread title
(go figure)...I thought since I PERSONALLY think Superman's baddies are overall better than Bats', then I'd offer up that something of more of
a compromise in the thread title's "thrust"....for me it would be to say
that Batman has an "EASIER rogues gallery to render in media" than Batman
does....

again, I'd say that's more due to the gimmicky nature of
many of Bats baddies that are less related to Batman's character than
Superman's are...tie that with the phenomenon of the villains
coming to life in the wildly sucessful 66 show.....well...it puts Batman's
baddies in quite the flattering light.

I have to admit that the more I think about the RIDDLER, the more
I see the connection with BATMAN's "detective" aspect altho' I think
I don't respect the character because I never could get in synch
with a villain that thrived off of giving brain teasers no matter how much
it tied into BATMAN's character.

Not to be harsh with the resident Pengiuin fans...and, yes, I don't know the comics that well, eh, but Penguin seems to be still coasting off of Meredith's
wake...heck the Burton Penguin made alot more sense being a discarded
socialite favorite son....a freak version of Bruce wayne....almost Bizarro-like
in concept on that bent.

[huedell]

You should atleast go and read Some comics before making Such poor Opinionated Posts ... And leave the True Discussions of "Debate" for people that do ..., or as you consistantly refur to those that do with the Name calling of "Comicbook Geeks" . ...

Again.....getting unnecessarily "hurt" because huedell don't read as many
comics as you do.

To review what I've already said in this thread:

I've seen movies, TV shows and other media enough to base my opinion
on something solid regarding comic heroes----
AND the comics that I HAVEN'T read have been somewhat
supplimented by all the dieards on this board including you.

Its not like I claim to know things I don't know...its not like
I claim you don't know more than me.
My posts aren't "poor"----your comic geek-colored glasses you see
them thru are....time to change the view or we'll be arguing more about
"credentials" instead of the facts at hand.

[BlackKnight]

i'll use your post post to respond rergarding that I believe you don't have
to be a diehard comic reader to discuss this topic...or, in fact, many topics
discussed on this board.

I'll use your 2 Posts ..., to Show that perhaps you Do ..., even More so when you Carry on, and On threw 6 Pages of Flat Arse Out Nonsense.

...mainly its suffered because of bad luck in "directions" with more popular culture media stuff than Batman ever had.

That's a real shame because I think BIZARRO, BRAINIAC, METALLO, PARASITE
etc. have gotten a raw deal. One thing that's so great about those villains
is they much more intertwined with SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN's powers
than Bats' villains are with his...or the Flash's with his..

You should atleast go and read Some comics before making Such poor Opinionated Posts ... And leave the True Discussions of "Debate" for people that do ..., or as you consistantly refur to those that do with the Name calling of "Comicbook Geeks" . ...

[huedell]

When my mom taught me about Theology at bedtime she told me of a spriyual being who lives in each of use. I asked what this being looked like . She said anything .

Obvious really. S.

Please don't bring your own mother into this.
I see you're trying to get creative again. I've never gelled with your
creative writing unfortunately.

[TrueDave]

When my mom taught me about Theology at bedtime she told me of a spritual being who lives in each of use. I asked what this being looked like . She said anything .

Obvious really. Superman made it possible for me in my mind to imagine something that incredible. Some of these Heroes have been lifesavers to people on the brink.

I know people with Tatoos of thier Family , The Flag and a superhero. THATS how much it means.

SO yeah . Badmouth and you get shot down.

[huedell]

Hue I'm just having fun with you on that last post..my take is this, Batman's rougues are more ingrained ( just like someone else said ) in pop culture because of the TV series and the movies...especially the newer ones...they seem more human and seem to be more real... Batman also seems more real to the younger audience..I'm 50 years old and love Superman, always have, but as you all have said his foes have to be so powerful
( with the exception of Poison Ivy in HUSH, and Lex Luthor )..lol..that they are not believable and I think thats what a younger audience wants...us old timers want great story lines! I think they are all great!

I hear ya...I'm a big Batfan as well. I just think Supes had a worse run of
multi-media luck and needs some "hero geeks" to point that out....me being
one of those hero geeks here and now.

[huedell]

Yes a lot of emphasis can be put on Batman's '66 show and the way the villains became superstars.....BUT only Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman and Mr. Freeze existed prior to the show in the comics. Everyone else (Egghead and King Tut included) were created for the show. And yet Two-Face has been considered a "Top 5" Bat-foe for a long-time before Tommy Lee Jones played him. So you can't "blame" everything on '66.

Regarding THIS^^^^ well, you're reaching a bit...but in theory you're
correct. Then again, as far as BAT-VILLAINS, it just so happens that after the JOKER, CATWOMAN and possibly THE SCARECROW, TWO FACE is one
of the best DCU villains IMHO.

[huedell]

If you notice, in additon to me asides to you, I've continued to add
my input on various reasons why I think Supes foes are weak and what can
be done to improve them.

I "am" a "victim" if you're going to type that "blather"----READ MY POSTS...
I talk about the two galleries throughout...are you paying attention?

Obviously you don't understand an analogy...I could have said the
Super Friends show or Superman jammies....

Obviously, you didn't get it when I put the "70s merch" reference in
parentheses....so enough on that.

But if we're talking about their current status, which I believe
samurainoir was talking about when he addressed this topic, they need
improvement to be on par with Batman's current Rogues Gallery....IMO.

Agreed....but...that isn't the whole story...and that's why I enjoyed this
debate from time to time. Its more than "Superman writers don't know how to elevate Supes' baddies that well as they do Bats'"....its the way
the baddies are portrayed in all media throughout their existence.

Ya see...when you give me that recommendation list on what I should read
to keep up with the "comicboook side" of these debates...I appreciate
it...and, who knows, maybe I'll check 'em out....regardless....I've been
reading your guys' posts on this stuff in these forums
for YEARS.....I'm "kinda" catching on to a lot this stuff withOUT the books
to read

Still, I'll be on the lookout for the more current and/or poignant comicbook stuff...after all--- I'm a fan of the icons and they DO span media...
including...um....where they originated: in the comics.

PS---Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
is my fave comic of all time.

[cactus725]

Hue I'm just having fun with you on that last post..my take is this, Batman's rougues are more ingrained ( just like someone else said ) in pop culture because of the TV series and the movies...especially the newer ones...they seem more human and seem to be more real... Batman also seems more real to the younger audience..I'm 50 years old and love Superman, always have, but as you all have said his foes have to be so powerful
( with the exception of Poison Ivy in HUSH, and Lex Luthor )..lol..that they are not believable and I think thats what a younger audience wants...us old timers want great story lines! I think they are all great!

[The Toyroom]

"Ocassionally bring to the table"???? Apparently you ARE "hurt" or SOMETHING
of that nature if that's how you feel about my posts...read on and I'll tiredly
remind you that I have bit more to bring to the table than what you purport.
(Why I should DO that I'm not so sure)

No not hurt...but starting to get a little ticked off....Yes that is the way I feel about the majority of your posts in the comics forum....Like I said, it's ok to have a difference of opinion but 9 out of 10 times you portray yourself as the victim of some slight by the comic "geek" community.

I originally said "You're nuts" with a laughing icon....Simple as that...I didn't attack you the way you perceive it. And yet you continually come back time and again with the victim routine without doing anything to advance the topic at hand or back up your opinions with nothing more than blather. If you notice, in additon to me asides to you, I've continued to add my input on various reasons why I think Supes foes are weak and what can be done to improve them.

Suuuuuure. This all has to do with some non-existent Bronze age coloring book you think I had....it was a notable bit more than "that" (1970s
kiddie merch) back then...I read some comics---the one where Supes got bitten by that Kryptonian lizard and went up against Myx comes to mind (for example) and, yes, I like the old SUPER FRIENDS show....but eventually grew out of it.

Obviously you don't understand an analogy...I could have said the Super Friends show or Superman jammies....the point is you formed an attachment for whatever reason at a certain age/point in time. Which again is fine...I'm not debating the original catalyst which made Superman your favorite DC hero. And Superman as a hero is not even in question. What is is whether his foes are better than Batman's. And quite frankly, in the scheme of things, throughout comic books and various other media, they are lacking and have not reached their full potential in a long time.

Yes a lot of emphasis can be put on Batman's '66 show and the way the villains became superstars.....BUT only Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman and Mr. Freeze existed prior to the show in the comics. Everyone else (Egghead and King Tut included) were created for the show. And yet Two-Face has been considered a "Top 5" Bat-foe for a long-time before Tommy Lee Jones played him. So you can't "blame" everything on '66.

So if you'd agree more with that kind of notion
a lot of the percieved value of Batman's gallery goes out the window
and Superman's increases.....and frankly, that's how I feel about it.

There's a few Batman storylines I really wished you'd check out...as a comic reader to a non-comic reader...and I'm serious, not being sarcastic or busting your balls...Three come to mind....1) Who Killed The Batman 2) Batman #400 and 3) Detective #526 (I think, 1st appearance of Jason Todd as Robin). All of these feature Batman's foes (and I mean ALL of them) escaping/plotting/working together to bring down the Bat. The dynamics of these characters all interacting together is fascinating and intruiging. You have never seen this happen with Superman's foes with the exception of Alan Moore's fantastic Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and a brief scene in Alex Ross' Justice (where Metallo, Grundy, and Bizarro gang up on Supes). Most writers don't know how to handle these villains properly but those two stories show it CAN be done right.

I really don't want to make you feel inferior with your opinions....Yes I'm a "diehard", "geek", whatever you want to call it....I'm just as passionate and opinionated when it comes to these characters and what they are and what they COULD be because I have spend a lot of years with these "dudes" as you seem to be based on what you recall them to be.

But if we're talking about their current status, which I believe samurainoir was talking about when he addressed this topic, they need improvement to be on par with Batman's current Rogues Gallery....IMO.

[huedell]

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it. What does being obnoxious contribute to why you opened this thread?

Is THAT why I opened this thread? Nice.

You have a lot of nerve to read all my posts pertaining to the Supes vs. Bats baddies stuff here in this thread and summing it up as my
"opening this thread with the idea of being obnoxious".
I'll gurantee that there were other things going on in my posts from the
start in this thread. So there's that.

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it....

Nice go at "rallying the troops"....maybe if you did it before others started in on me, it'd be a poignant move...otherwise it just looks like a "pile on".

Here's the deal Dave....I've thought you've made some pretty obnoxious posts in the past, and I've pretty much bit my tongue in instances
mainly because I like to stay close to the posts at hand.

You, on the other hand, just posted to a swipe at me regarding my
thread behavior and it didn't even address a specific post I made...
seems pretty pointless to me.

[huedell]

All you need is a green rock from space to defeat Supe...Batman knows it...HUSH..........

Hmmmmm.... All you need is an armor piercing weapon to kill Batman....

Its "in the details" with either hero