Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[TrueDave]

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it. What does being obnoxious contribute to why you opened this thread?

[TrueDave]

Exactlly!

Batman is a type of Mental Illness

Spider man is an incect/ Animal

Theres LOTS of mental illnesses and incets and animals!

A friend said Batman was always a Marvel stuck in a DC while the opposite for Captain America.

Batman's rougues are similar to Spider-Man's in that their cores are based on humanity and it's various and numerous flaws.

Batman is a very disturbed man. A few twists of fate and he could be just like many of his villains he faces or has locked away in Arkham. They all lost part of their humanity to something, be it scientific experiment, accident, traumatic episode or malice. Harvey Dent was Batman in a suit. He was out for justice and all for doing things the right way. It wasn't until his life was drastically and irrevocably altered that he began his path of destruciton.

Child abusers and women batterers tend to learn from what they've seen and experienced. Young Bruce Wayne could have easily been taken down a much different path after witnessing his parent's murder. Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Two-Face, those guys in some way are mirror opposites of Batman and represent what might have been. I think that's what makes them so compelling. That's my .02

Scott

[cactus725]

All you need is a green rock from space to defeat Supe...Batman knows it...HUSH..........

[huedell]

Maybe because I feel that it quantifies your arguements a tad bit.

The way you and others post about it...I'd say its looked at as "quantifying it a LOT"....especially since I never said it was a great movie to begin
with...rather... "more superior than others round here give it credit for"
especially in the context of SUPES 1 and 2 (and the real lameness of
SUPES 4 for that matter).

And sorry that movie has no strong points.

Really? Ergo my past posts about it

[thunderbolt]

SUPERMAN III my butt already----are you really serious?
Why everyone has to bring that up when there's a disagreement
is beyond me----sing a new tune already----I don't even LIKE Supes III
all that much-----I just think you guys are too geek-twisted to recognize
it's stronger points and (even more notably) the many other superhero movies'
weaker points.

And if you can't get the strong appeal of BIZARRO, LEX, BRAINIAC, METALLO,
PARASITE etc etc. then, yeah, I can't help you and I don't get you.

Maybe because I feel that it quantifies your arguements a tad bit. And sorry that movie has no strong points.

[huedell]

You Don't ...,
It's just difficult to take in a "Debate" from Someone, who really don't seem have the Knowledge to where thier "opinion" can be taken into consideration on the Subject.

i'll use your post post to respond rergarding that I believe you don't have
to be a diehard comic reader to discuss this topic...or, in fact, many topics
discussed on this board.

This rogues gallery question sprawls across all media----and I'm feeling
pretty qualified to debate this stuff because of that.

And its about time the old tired "Superman is too strong so his rogues
gallery suffers and its worse than many other DCU heroes" stuff gets put
aside for a few seconds and we look into more poignant reasons on why
SUPES' rogues gallery has suffered over the years....

...mainly its suffered because of bad luck in "directions" with more popular culture media stuff than Batman ever had.

As said earlier....Batman '66 was in the right place at the right time, eh?

Superman's gallery is different in many ways then the more "gimmick of the day" stuff of Batman's baddies----I think
that makes it harder for writers and the public to swallow.

That's a real shame because I think BIZARRO, BRAINIAC, METALLO, PARASITE
etc. have gotten a raw deal. One thing that's so great about those villains
is they much more intertwined with SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN's powers
than Bats' villains are with his...or the Flash's with his....and THAT
is one reason I love 'em so much.

[huedell]

Don't worry....you're not hurting my feelings in the least. The "nothing new around here" is your "opinion" quite often intruding on what is a semi-serious discussion (yeah I know...comic books, right ) by folks that actually READ what is being discussed.

Now I'm not saying you have to be a die-hard...that would be "elitist"....and that's not what I'm purposing. But it would be nice if you occassionally brought something to the table that's relevant to the discussion at hand, other than opinions formulated years ago.

"Ocassionally bring to the table"???? Apparently you ARE "hurt" or SOMETHING
of that nature if that's how you feel about my posts...read on and I'll tiredly
remind you that I have bit more to bring to the table than what you purport.
(Why I should DO that I'm not so sure)

Now the topic was "Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?"
The answer can be any number of reasons...or you may disagree and think that Supes has the better Rogues. Which is fine...but back up your opinion with some validity other than "I'm not your typical comicfan". You might as well say you liked your Superman coloring book that featured Luthor, Bizarro, Mxy when you were a kid. Which again is fine, but there's a lot more to Superman and his Rogues than just a first impression.

Suuuuuure. This all has to do with some non-existent Bronze age coloring book you think I had....it was a notable bit more than "that" (1970s
kiddie merch) back then...I read some comics---the one where Supes got bitten by that Kryptonian lizard and went up against Myx comes to mind (for example) and, yes, I like the old SUPER FRIENDS show....but eventually grew out of it.

And this is not meant to nullify yours or anyone else's opinion because they don't read as many books as I do or someone else does. My knowledge is not omnipotent by no means. But I feel I can back up my opinion 100 different ways to Sunday without resorting to the "geek" calling or the "not your typical comicfan" mantra you always bring out.

I use the "geek" word because for lack of using "diehard" all the time...sometimes it comes in handy....and it sure fits....so why not.
I'm a "toy" geek I'd say----but not a "comic geek"....no big deal.

And, the thing is "I" "back up my opinions 50 ways to Sunday....
but to a...um....diehard....like you (or Bat) that doesn't seem to float that
well....and it makes many resort to bringing up the nice things I say
about SUPERMAN III, for whatever "smart" reasons that's for (sarcasm off)....

Ask yourself this....out of the 5 recent Superman movies (since '78) why has Luthor been in 4 of them? Same old same old....bottom line is the other villains need to be seriously updated to major threats to, well, take them seriously again. Is it any wonder that John Byrne had to tap Darkseid to be a "big bad" for Supes (which others have since followed) because just Luthor all day every day just wasn't going to cut it?

That's cool that you as a regular comic reader know that they have to be updated...but the point that Brian brought up is key here. Visiblity.
The right stuff at the right time.

The Salkinds could be more to blame for this than anybody else.
They really dropped the ball at a crucial time----and Bryan Singer, if anything,
was trying to make up for it....which I think he did beautifully,
but then was yanked off the project.....oh well....

So if you'd agree more with that kind of notion
a lot of the percieved value of Batman's gallery goes out the window
and Superman's increases.....and frankly, that's how I feel about it.

[BlackKnight]

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

You Don't ...,
It's just difficult to take in a "Debate" from Someone, who really don't seem have the Knowledge to where thier "opinion" can be taken into consideration on the Subject.

[PNGwynne]

I can see Superman's classic foes being tweaked to be more formidable/relevant. But didn't Toyman recently go "old-school"?

Some of the blame lies in Superman's characterization, not intrinsically his foes.

As for the movies, that's just Hollywood lazy BS. Superman III could have easily featured Brainiac instead of a supercomputer; Superman IV had very obvious Bizarro overtones.

[The Toyroom]

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

Don't worry....you're not hurting my feelings in the least. The "nothing new around here" is your "opinion" quite often intruding on what is a semi-serious discussion (yeah I know...comic books, right ) by folks that actually READ what is being discussed.

Now I'm not saying you have to be a die-hard...that would be "elitist"....and that's not what I'm purposing. But it would be nice if you occassionally brought something to the table that's relevant to the discussion at hand, other than opinions formulated years ago.

Now the topic was "Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?"
The answer can be any number of reasons...or you may disagree and think that Supes has the better Rogues. Which is fine...but back up your opinion with some validity other than "I'm not your typical comicfan". You might as well say you liked your Superman coloring book that featured Luthor, Bizarro, Mxy when you were a kid. Which again is fine, but there's a lot more to Superman and his Rogues than just a first impression.

And this is not meant to nullify yours or anyone else's opinion because they don't read as many books as I do or someone else does. My knowledge is not omnipotent by no means. But I feel I can back up my opinion 100 different ways to Sunday without resorting to the "geek" calling or the "not your typical comicfan" mantra you always bring out.

You seem to like the Bronze Age characters...which is fine. But realize that it's been a long time since the Bronze Age and many of those characters have been revised/rebooted and quite often tainted from what you originally remember. And on the subject of Superman's foes, that's were I'm coming from....they may have been great once, but it's been a long time and many of them have been jokes to longtime comic readers for many years now.

Ask yourself this....out of the 5 recent Superman movies (since '78) why has Luthor been in 4 of them? Same old same old....bottom line is the other villains need to be seriously updated to major threats to, well, take them seriously again. Is it any wonder that John Byrne had to tap Darkseid to be a "big bad" for Supes (which others have since followed) because just Luthor all day every day just wasn't going to cut it?

[PNGwynne]

I am not going to derail this thread and defend the Penguin--'though I can, easily.

Toyroom is spot-on about the problem being Superman being increasingly too powerful to sustain a varied Rogues' Gallery--that's why he was "depowered" in the animated series.

I love Luthor, Brainiac, Bizarro, Mxy, Toyman, Parasite, & Metallo. Satanus & Livewire are cool recent additions. And Darkseid is a heavy-hitter DC really needs.

Palitoy make a great point about Batman'66 popularizing foes. TV Supes & Wonder Woman crapped out when it came to villains. Visibility is key.

It seems to me that Batman's RG is creepier, depending on freakishness & insanity. Superman's hinges more on inventiveness & jealousy.

Some foes can be traded around--I mean, Flash's gimmicky foes are not that different than several Bats/Supes rogues...

[palitoy]

You know I really think that we can't down play the popularity of the 1966 series as to why the bat villains are king. I mean they really became part of popular culture, my dad worked in a real tough bar back then and he said absolutely everybody would shut up and watch Batman.

Superman's rogues have never really had that kind of mass media exposure, I mean sure Cesar Romero wasn't a pitch perfect but he sure looked like the guy in the comics.

Not so much with Gene Hackman as Luthor, Zod is the only Superman villain who seems to be on the public's radar and that's entirely because of Terrance Stamp. If people know Bizzarro it's likely because of Seinfeld.

[huedell]

^ Sssshh....Grown-ups are talking

Awww....the comic geek elitists feelings are being hurt AGAIN....
nothing new around here.

All jabbing aside....I can't believe you have to be "protective of"
and "affected BY" this subject matter as to be so bent on nullifying
my opinion-----its not like live or die stuff.

[The Toyroom]

I always liked the Atomic Skull. What a cool name. The Master Jailer was cool when I was kid, too. Don't really know how you would update him.

I love the visuals on both of those guys....Atomic Skull was updated post-Byrne but I didn't care for him. Not sure if MJ has gotten the update treatment. Although if memory serves he knew Clark Kent when he was a kid and we sorta got that with Kenny Braverman (sp)/Conduit.

[The Toyroom]

^ Sssshh....Grown-ups are talking