Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[huedell]

You Don't ...,
It's just difficult to take in a "Debate" from Someone, who really don't seem have the Knowledge to where thier "opinion" can be taken into consideration on the Subject.

i'll use your post post to respond rergarding that I believe you don't have
to be a diehard comic reader to discuss this topic...or, in fact, many topics
discussed on this board.

This rogues gallery question sprawls across all media----and I'm feeling
pretty qualified to debate this stuff because of that.

And its about time the old tired "Superman is too strong so his rogues
gallery suffers and its worse than many other DCU heroes" stuff gets put
aside for a few seconds and we look into more poignant reasons on why
SUPES' rogues gallery has suffered over the years....

...mainly its suffered because of bad luck in "directions" with more popular culture media stuff than Batman ever had.

As said earlier....Batman '66 was in the right place at the right time, eh?

Superman's gallery is different in many ways then the more "gimmick of the day" stuff of Batman's baddies----I think
that makes it harder for writers and the public to swallow.

That's a real shame because I think BIZARRO, BRAINIAC, METALLO, PARASITE
etc. have gotten a raw deal. One thing that's so great about those villains
is they much more intertwined with SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN's powers
than Bats' villains are with his...or the Flash's with his....and THAT
is one reason I love 'em so much.

[thunderbolt]

SUPERMAN III my butt already----are you really serious?
Why everyone has to bring that up when there's a disagreement
is beyond me----sing a new tune already----I don't even LIKE Supes III
all that much-----I just think you guys are too geek-twisted to recognize
it's stronger points and (even more notably) the many other superhero movies'
weaker points.

And if you can't get the strong appeal of BIZARRO, LEX, BRAINIAC, METALLO,
PARASITE etc etc. then, yeah, I can't help you and I don't get you.

Maybe because I feel that it quantifies your arguements a tad bit. And sorry that movie has no strong points.

[huedell]

Maybe because I feel that it quantifies your arguements a tad bit.

The way you and others post about it...I'd say its looked at as "quantifying it a LOT"....especially since I never said it was a great movie to begin
with...rather... "more superior than others round here give it credit for"
especially in the context of SUPES 1 and 2 (and the real lameness of
SUPES 4 for that matter).

And sorry that movie has no strong points.

Really? Ergo my past posts about it

[cactus725]

All you need is a green rock from space to defeat Supe...Batman knows it...HUSH..........

[TrueDave]

Exactlly!

Batman is a type of Mental Illness

Spider man is an incect/ Animal

Theres LOTS of mental illnesses and incets and animals!

A friend said Batman was always a Marvel stuck in a DC while the opposite for Captain America.

Batman's rougues are similar to Spider-Man's in that their cores are based on humanity and it's various and numerous flaws.

Batman is a very disturbed man. A few twists of fate and he could be just like many of his villains he faces or has locked away in Arkham. They all lost part of their humanity to something, be it scientific experiment, accident, traumatic episode or malice. Harvey Dent was Batman in a suit. He was out for justice and all for doing things the right way. It wasn't until his life was drastically and irrevocably altered that he began his path of destruciton.

Child abusers and women batterers tend to learn from what they've seen and experienced. Young Bruce Wayne could have easily been taken down a much different path after witnessing his parent's murder. Joker, Penguin, Riddler, Two-Face, those guys in some way are mirror opposites of Batman and represent what might have been. I think that's what makes them so compelling. That's my .02

Scott

[TrueDave]

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it. What does being obnoxious contribute to why you opened this thread?

[huedell]

All you need is a green rock from space to defeat Supe...Batman knows it...HUSH..........

Hmmmmm.... All you need is an armor piercing weapon to kill Batman....

Its "in the details" with either hero

[huedell]

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it. What does being obnoxious contribute to why you opened this thread?

Is THAT why I opened this thread? Nice.

You have a lot of nerve to read all my posts pertaining to the Supes vs. Bats baddies stuff here in this thread and summing it up as my
"opening this thread with the idea of being obnoxious".
I'll gurantee that there were other things going on in my posts from the
start in this thread. So there's that.

Huedelle this is a place where people who like comic book characters come to talk about it....

Nice go at "rallying the troops"....maybe if you did it before others started in on me, it'd be a poignant move...otherwise it just looks like a "pile on".

Here's the deal Dave....I've thought you've made some pretty obnoxious posts in the past, and I've pretty much bit my tongue in instances
mainly because I like to stay close to the posts at hand.

You, on the other hand, just posted to a swipe at me regarding my
thread behavior and it didn't even address a specific post I made...
seems pretty pointless to me.

[The Toyroom]

"Ocassionally bring to the table"???? Apparently you ARE "hurt" or SOMETHING
of that nature if that's how you feel about my posts...read on and I'll tiredly
remind you that I have bit more to bring to the table than what you purport.
(Why I should DO that I'm not so sure)

No not hurt...but starting to get a little ticked off....Yes that is the way I feel about the majority of your posts in the comics forum....Like I said, it's ok to have a difference of opinion but 9 out of 10 times you portray yourself as the victim of some slight by the comic "geek" community.

I originally said "You're nuts" with a laughing icon....Simple as that...I didn't attack you the way you perceive it. And yet you continually come back time and again with the victim routine without doing anything to advance the topic at hand or back up your opinions with nothing more than blather. If you notice, in additon to me asides to you, I've continued to add my input on various reasons why I think Supes foes are weak and what can be done to improve them.

Suuuuuure. This all has to do with some non-existent Bronze age coloring book you think I had....it was a notable bit more than "that" (1970s
kiddie merch) back then...I read some comics---the one where Supes got bitten by that Kryptonian lizard and went up against Myx comes to mind (for example) and, yes, I like the old SUPER FRIENDS show....but eventually grew out of it.

Obviously you don't understand an analogy...I could have said the Super Friends show or Superman jammies....the point is you formed an attachment for whatever reason at a certain age/point in time. Which again is fine...I'm not debating the original catalyst which made Superman your favorite DC hero. And Superman as a hero is not even in question. What is is whether his foes are better than Batman's. And quite frankly, in the scheme of things, throughout comic books and various other media, they are lacking and have not reached their full potential in a long time.

Yes a lot of emphasis can be put on Batman's '66 show and the way the villains became superstars.....BUT only Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman and Mr. Freeze existed prior to the show in the comics. Everyone else (Egghead and King Tut included) were created for the show. And yet Two-Face has been considered a "Top 5" Bat-foe for a long-time before Tommy Lee Jones played him. So you can't "blame" everything on '66.

So if you'd agree more with that kind of notion
a lot of the percieved value of Batman's gallery goes out the window
and Superman's increases.....and frankly, that's how I feel about it.

There's a few Batman storylines I really wished you'd check out...as a comic reader to a non-comic reader...and I'm serious, not being sarcastic or busting your balls...Three come to mind....1) Who Killed The Batman 2) Batman #400 and 3) Detective #526 (I think, 1st appearance of Jason Todd as Robin). All of these feature Batman's foes (and I mean ALL of them) escaping/plotting/working together to bring down the Bat. The dynamics of these characters all interacting together is fascinating and intruiging. You have never seen this happen with Superman's foes with the exception of Alan Moore's fantastic Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and a brief scene in Alex Ross' Justice (where Metallo, Grundy, and Bizarro gang up on Supes). Most writers don't know how to handle these villains properly but those two stories show it CAN be done right.

I really don't want to make you feel inferior with your opinions....Yes I'm a "diehard", "geek", whatever you want to call it....I'm just as passionate and opinionated when it comes to these characters and what they are and what they COULD be because I have spend a lot of years with these "dudes" as you seem to be based on what you recall them to be.

But if we're talking about their current status, which I believe samurainoir was talking about when he addressed this topic, they need improvement to be on par with Batman's current Rogues Gallery....IMO.

[cactus725]

Hue I'm just having fun with you on that last post..my take is this, Batman's rougues are more ingrained ( just like someone else said ) in pop culture because of the TV series and the movies...especially the newer ones...they seem more human and seem to be more real... Batman also seems more real to the younger audience..I'm 50 years old and love Superman, always have, but as you all have said his foes have to be so powerful
( with the exception of Poison Ivy in HUSH, and Lex Luthor )..lol..that they are not believable and I think thats what a younger audience wants...us old timers want great story lines! I think they are all great!

[huedell]

If you notice, in additon to me asides to you, I've continued to add
my input on various reasons why I think Supes foes are weak and what can
be done to improve them.

I "am" a "victim" if you're going to type that "blather"----READ MY POSTS...
I talk about the two galleries throughout...are you paying attention?

Obviously you don't understand an analogy...I could have said the
Super Friends show or Superman jammies....

Obviously, you didn't get it when I put the "70s merch" reference in
parentheses....so enough on that.

But if we're talking about their current status, which I believe
samurainoir was talking about when he addressed this topic, they need
improvement to be on par with Batman's current Rogues Gallery....IMO.

Agreed....but...that isn't the whole story...and that's why I enjoyed this
debate from time to time. Its more than "Superman writers don't know how to elevate Supes' baddies that well as they do Bats'"....its the way
the baddies are portrayed in all media throughout their existence.

Ya see...when you give me that recommendation list on what I should read
to keep up with the "comicboook side" of these debates...I appreciate
it...and, who knows, maybe I'll check 'em out....regardless....I've been
reading your guys' posts on this stuff in these forums
for YEARS.....I'm "kinda" catching on to a lot this stuff withOUT the books
to read

Still, I'll be on the lookout for the more current and/or poignant comicbook stuff...after all--- I'm a fan of the icons and they DO span media...
including...um....where they originated: in the comics.

PS---Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
is my fave comic of all time.

[huedell]

Yes a lot of emphasis can be put on Batman's '66 show and the way the villains became superstars.....BUT only Joker, Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman and Mr. Freeze existed prior to the show in the comics. Everyone else (Egghead and King Tut included) were created for the show. And yet Two-Face has been considered a "Top 5" Bat-foe for a long-time before Tommy Lee Jones played him. So you can't "blame" everything on '66.

Regarding THIS^^^^ well, you're reaching a bit...but in theory you're
correct. Then again, as far as BAT-VILLAINS, it just so happens that after the JOKER, CATWOMAN and possibly THE SCARECROW, TWO FACE is one
of the best DCU villains IMHO.

[huedell]

Hue I'm just having fun with you on that last post..my take is this, Batman's rougues are more ingrained ( just like someone else said ) in pop culture because of the TV series and the movies...especially the newer ones...they seem more human and seem to be more real... Batman also seems more real to the younger audience..I'm 50 years old and love Superman, always have, but as you all have said his foes have to be so powerful
( with the exception of Poison Ivy in HUSH, and Lex Luthor )..lol..that they are not believable and I think thats what a younger audience wants...us old timers want great story lines! I think they are all great!

I hear ya...I'm a big Batfan as well. I just think Supes had a worse run of
multi-media luck and needs some "hero geeks" to point that out....me being
one of those hero geeks here and now.

[TrueDave]

When my mom taught me about Theology at bedtime she told me of a spritual being who lives in each of use. I asked what this being looked like . She said anything .

Obvious really. Superman made it possible for me in my mind to imagine something that incredible. Some of these Heroes have been lifesavers to people on the brink.

I know people with Tatoos of thier Family , The Flag and a superhero. THATS how much it means.

SO yeah . Badmouth and you get shot down.

[huedell]

When my mom taught me about Theology at bedtime she told me of a spriyual being who lives in each of use. I asked what this being looked like . She said anything .

Obvious really. S.

Please don't bring your own mother into this.
I see you're trying to get creative again. I've never gelled with your
creative writing unfortunately.