Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[huedell]

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.


It seriously seems a out there.
Considering Most Character's that are transformed in to Movie form, are really only Shell's of themselves and how they are percieved par say to thier Comicbook Identities in the 1st place.

I don't think that's fair BK----a character like Batman has been addressed
by a billion writers over the 7 or so DECADES that the character has existed
in the comics.....that makes the comic version on an (almost) equal playing
field to discuss the character's baddies as the versions in movies/TV over
the years I'd say.

[BlackKnight]

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.


It seriously seems a out there.
Considering Most Character's that are transformed in to Movie form, are really only Shell's of themselves and how they are percieved par say to thier Comicbook Identities in the 1st place.

[huedell]

Not sure I'd characterize Burton's version of the Penguin as having a lot of "thought" put into it....If you look at characters Burton has created throughout his movies, his version of the Penguin is one that could have as easily appeared in "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpse Bride" or even "Edward Scissorhands". It speaks more of Burton and his sensibilties than it does about the character of The Penguin.

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run. Not alot of originality there as far as plot...which I guess i why we also got Max Schrek

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

The fact that I said Burton put "thought" into it and that
you are saying Burton was "repeating himself" is secondary to the fact
that it was a deeper character than Burgess' ever could've been----
Buton's being a characterization that fun-housed socialite-priveledged
Bruce Wayne's
-----if you want to say it was Burton's sensibilities that helped
push in that direction----well, it WAS his movie after all so I'd say he has that right.

Burgess' quacked a lot.

You say Burton's stole from the show because there was
a "runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile" plot?

Ha. No one complained when Nolan stole Burton's poison the city
with gas idea in Begins....its all in the execution AND as you pointed out
so deftly....Max shreck was a nice twist to that execution, not to mention
the "TEN COMMANDMENTS" twist of killing all the first born to
avenge the Penguin's unpriveldged life and ruined youth....which
keys into the great ideas that Burton brought to the table.

The 1966 show was fun...but you can't turn it into something that it wasn't...
Burton on the other hand suceeed incredibly with giving the Penguin depth
in an original way....something unfortunately, he didn't do as much
for THE JOKER or CATWOMAN or even BATMAN on the whole.

Still, I think Burton's vision of Batman is the best so far not so much for
the characters as just for an overall vibe to watch the Bat-universe unfold,
balancing the vapid fun of the 1966 show with a little width and
breatdth....something that Nolan suceeded with in spades...and that
I thought was pretty cool, but not as satisying to watch as Burton's stuff
for me personally.

edited to address:

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run.

[/QUOTE]

That's not "motivation" for the character...as I said above those are just
plot points....as you said "things Meredith did".

Just because someone does the same thing as someone else doesn't mean
they did it for the same reason.

[The Toyroom]

yet that's exactly what the 66 show's characterization does for the character
---not in such a thoughtful way as Burton's-----

Not sure I'd characterize Burton's version of the Penguin as having a lot of "thought" put into it....If you look at characters Burton has created throughout his movies, his version of the Penguin is one that could have as easily appeared in "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpse Bride" or even "Edward Scissorhands". It speaks more of Burton and his sensibilties than it does about the character of The Penguin.

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run. Not alot of originality there as far as plot...which I guess i why we also got Max Schrek

[huedell]

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

Yes, but on an absolutely tongue in cheek show.
I don't think the 1966 show does much for characterization...
it was more bluster for the villains than anything else...
a "scenery chewing" factory.
as compared to most other versions of the Bat-universe following it.

You say:

...making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

yet that's exactly what the 66 show's characterization does for the character
---not in such a thoughtful way as Burton's-----but it still renders him
a quacking pigeonholed one dimensional character.
Not that there's anything wrong with that....but in the context of what you're
saying you want out of the
character, its seems to be a contradiction.

[PNGwynne]

I appreciate the thoughtful comments regarding Penguin in this thread; he is so often easily dismissed.

I don't dislike "freak" Penguin a al Burton/Sales per se, but for me it is a bit of a cop-out/easy way out, & not a classic characterization.

"No Man's Land" & subsequent stories worked hard to give Cobblepot a modern cache. I like his current place as a colorful, eccentric Dick Tracy-type career mobster.

An important facet to consider with the character as an eccentric & "funny little man" is his motivating hatred of people like Bruce Wayne and what the Batman represents.

In this context, making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

[huedell]

BK, I get the feeling that Hue would argue with any statement just for kicks. I bet he would dissagree with "The sky is blue".

I think you're disrerspectful for thinking that....either that or you just need
some kind of justification for me disagreeing with you. Sad.

[TrueDave]

Bloodsport was great . I loved the evolution of the characters in the costume. Limited what you can do with him and NOT kill him. What happened with Toyman was so great a story and such a turn off to me ( Same as Moore's Joker)


I think the problem of a Superman rouges gallery goes back to the principle of the Superhero Formula.

What a superhero fights ties into his orgin.

Batman is supposed to be a regular human. I like Batman World's Greatest detective Played up. Like Holmes. And maybe even make it a peroid piece. Pre WW2. Tense times .

STill Batman is the exact opposite of what all his villians are. Maybe thats why they hate hi. You know the point Bats should have POUNDED into the Moores Jokers face was Batman had a bad day too. And he choose good dispite the depression and want of revenge.


You know the only Batman out of comics I have ever believed is the 66 Batman series batman and some of the Superfriends.

No man can be an expert on everything. ( unless hes an Alien) and live that long while being mortal doing what Batman does.

Supermans home was destroyed by a natural disaster.

When ever I watch a tragedy movie I always have an urge to see Superman sweep in.

Luthor can be there to be a jerk . I think what I think is I can accept Superman is a Superpowered being because hes alien and who knows whats out there. But I have trouble beliving in more than a Planet Krypton in a single good story.

So dont push the acceptance of disbelief .

I want to see a is Superman movie where Superman is Friendly . Everyone trusts him and he just saves people. The thing that makes him grimace in pain most is him deflecting a Kryptomnite Meteor. As memorable personality as Stark/Downey JR

But a kid friendly one.

[The Toyroom]

When was the last time a totally new Superman villain really stuck? Cyborg Superman? He's been co-opted by Green Lantern!

How quickly we forget Bloodsport or Rampage!

Seriously though, I guess Doomsday has made the grade as an A-list villain. But once you've already killed Superman (and yourself in the process), that's a tough act to follow.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I think Brian hit the nail on the head with the 66 series cementing the Bat-villains in pop culture. Had George Reeves regularly fought Luthor, Toyman, Prankster, Puzzler, etc, they would be appreciated a lot more. Most folks know Luthor, but they don't really know much about him other than he's bald and he's Superman's enemy. And even Hackman threw off the bald thing, only briefly being bald in his movie appearances.

The psychological edge of Batman's villains makes them more compelling for sure. Even if they aren't insane, they all have these twisted little quirks that make them interesting. Even Penguin.

STAS did a good job of beefing up Superman's rogues, through the use of Darkseid, making Toyman creepy, and adding characters like Livewire.

Maybe the years Wesinger invested in over-developing Superman's Kryptonian heritage would have been better spent on coming up with classic menaces for the series. Of course we did get Bizarro and Parasite, but other than them and random Phantom Zoners, what other ongoing threats were developed in that long period? Multiple Kryptonite?

Villans that have stuck around have cropped up in every decade of Batman's existence. After the Riddler capped off the truly classic Bat-rogues in 1948, Mr. Zero cropped up in the late 50s, Clayface II in the early 60s, then Poison Ivy in 66. The 70s brought Man-Bat and Ra's Al Ghul. The 80s gave us Croc and the Ventriliquist. The 90s gave us Bane. The 2000s gave us Hush.

When was the last time a totally new Superman villain really stuck? Cyborg Superman? He's been co-opted by Green Lantern!

Chris

[thunderbolt]

I'll use your 2 Posts ..., to Show that perhaps you Do ..., even More so when you Carry on, and On threw 6 Pages of Flat Arse Out Nonsense.




You should atleast go and read Some comics before making Such poor Opinionated Posts ... And leave the True Discussions of "Debate" for people that do ..., or as you consistantly refur to those that do with the Name calling of "Comicbook Geeks" . ...

BK, I get the feeling that Hue would argue with any statement just for kicks. I bet he would dissagree with "The sky is blue".

[samurainoir]

Other Riddler Comics I'm fond of...

Gaiman's Secret Origins story which is less an origin story and more of a nostalgic pining for the "Good ol Days" of '66 Batman and Dick Sprang's Gotham City.


This issue really plays off the Sad Sack "has-been" Riddler.


And this one's just fun.

[samurainoir]

I know if Nolan took a shot at RIDDLER there'd be a way of making him SO
deliciously dangerous that it'd be a "step in the right direction".

The Riddler's been messed around with a bit too much in the past decade or so. I always thought making him insane (was it after Dark Night, Dark City?) and having writers begin sending him to Arkham instead of Blackgate was a mistake. Then there was in my opinion the HUGE misfire in tying him into the Joker's Killing Joke origin in the Hush follow-up.

Don't even get me started on neck tattoo Goth Riddler!


Although I thought Azzerello's Riddler from the recent Joker Graphic Novel was good for laugh... keeping in mind that it's the same writer who thought up "Pimp Croc".


Even with all it's faults, Hush did do a good job in re-establishing Riddler as a "thinking" villain, and Dini's handling of the character in the past couple of years as a Rival Detective has made him much more interesting, again placing him into the mix as a supporting character with his own anti-Batman agenda, rather than a recurring bad guy who gets thumped every few months. This current version also might owe a bit to Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale's Catwoman: When in Rome series.

I am intrigued by the rumours that were floating around a while back about Johnny Depp being Nolan's Riddler. It's always kind of neat whenever Depp sheds his "whimsy" for some harder edged roles.


Here's another fun fan poster (although I don't think Tennant is the best fit).

[huedell]

Good stuff on Penguin samurai----BTW my most poignant memory of
PENGUIN in his "Timm" form was being a start off point for Supes
when he's trying to find Btams during a STAS episode.

That comes off as something like what you're referring to in the comics....
a kind "Mob"by type guy who ultimately is more of a "bit player" as
far as Gotham crime goes.

Unless he's developed more ala DevIto's---that's where Penguin serves best
as far as I can see.

[samurainoir]

heck the Burton Penguin made alot more sense being a discarded
socialite favorite son....a freak version of Bruce wayne....almost Bizarro-like
in concept on that bent.

As much as I have fondness for Meridith's portrayal, I'm admittedly in the minority that takes great delight in the Tim Burton/Danny Devito version. I love the fact that he almost feels like an Edward Gorey storybook come to life. Again, this is probably down to the way Devito relished in inhabiting such a vile loathsome little creature... loved the bit with him eating the fish.

I think the reason why the Batman TAS version never really came together was because Dini/Timm and co didn't feel much affinity for that "Mutant Outcast" version from the Burton movie, but were saddled with it and had to compromise their original vision, which they reverted to in subsequent series.

Interesting to note that once more the comics have ransacked yet another of the Dini/Timm animated series concepts... Penguin as a criminal middleman, which currently works quite well and gives the Penguin a unique role in the current storylines as an ongoing supporting character in the Gotham City tapestry (just like Riddler is now a rival detective).

I always liked the way the origin story drawn Sam Keith tried to reconcile the concepts, but I think much of that is down to the unique style of Keith's art and that kind of menacing whimsy "Big Foot" look.