Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[samurainoir]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex.

I think you're right about Wolfman's contribution being the Businessman. Although I think Byrne handled Citizen Lex more memorably. I'm thinking about the defining moments in The Man of Steel series where Lex comes right out and lays it on the line for Superman, and in particular that one issue of Superman where Lex tries to entice a waitress at a remote diner into dropping her life and coming with him. It seemed much more evil to mess with that poor lady's life like that on a whim than to threaten the world with a death ray in some respects.

I actually kind of wish they had followed up on the Lois, Lex, Superman relationship traingle more in the beginning. Drawing it out a bit more.

[samurainoir]

Do we consider Lobo part of Superman's Rogues these days? I always think it's fun whenever they put these two together, particularly in the animated series.

[samurainoir]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex. Its the part of his proposal that DC kept. Byrne reworked Prankster, Toyman, Bizzaro, Mxy into creepier actual threats.

I liked Byrne tragic and creepy Bizarro. Can't remember his Prankster, Mxy and Toyman too well though. What did Byrne do with them? It wasn't Byrne who made the Toyman into a child killing seriel killer was it? I wan't to say it was Roger Stern, but my memory of that era isn't too good since I lost interest soon after Byrne's departure back to Marvel.

Were there any other memorably Superman Rogues that Byrne created?

[thunderbolt]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex. Its the part of his proposal that DC kept. Byrne reworked Prankster, Toyman, Bizzaro, Mxy into creepier actual threats.

[samurainoir]

I think Byrne was really hit and miss the Superman's Rogues. On the one hand, turning Luthor into a "legitimate" Businessman and Mastermind was incredibly innovative and opened up entirely new avenues to explore that they had exhausted with "Mad Scientist" Lex. It turned him into a constant threat and an ongoing supporting character for the following decades. Although I understand that Marv Wolfman had quite a bit of input into that as well.

I feel Byrne's Brainiac was a bit of a convoluted Misfire. That led to all those different iterations that Geoff Johns finally cleaned up recently.

And as successful as the "Terminator" style Metallo was from the visual action aspect of the comics, there was something to be desired about losing many aspects of his personality and motivations in the process of beefing him up. He seemed to be simply "muscle" for the past few decades as opposed to the schemer he was in the 70's.

Screaming Banshee was an interesting creation, particularly when she was drawn by Mike Mignola. Glad she's finally getting some more play.

I guess in some respects, Byrne was the one who jumped back to Kirby and made Darkseid a Superman threat and pulled various New Gods threads into the Superman corner of the DCU.

All in all though (and my memory of that era is kind of hazy admittedly), did Byrne add a lot to the Superman Rogues in his run?

I agree with whomever pointed out earlier that Doomsday was probably the first A-list Superman bad guy that had "stuck" in decades. I even have a hard time placing Metallo or Parasite into that "A" category, and they were created in the 70's I think.

[thunderbolt]

I think you're disrerspectful for thinking that....either that or you just need
some kind of justification for me disagreeing with you. Sad.

NO, it just seems like you disagree with everything in any given thread. That is the sad part. Just look at this thread, page after page of argument that has gotten nowhere. Personally I think Supes rogues can be every bit as good if handled properly. For the most part Byrne and Bruce Timm seem to have gotten it right. Before the Timm-iverse, the last time Luthor was handled right was the Superman serial with Kirk Alyn. The Hackman/Spacey version was poorly handled, especially the Hackman one which had a camp Batman 1966 flavor to it.

[huedell]

DUDE! Back the f' off! I'm not even trying to argue with you and you keep up with the "poor me" routine! Stop being a ******! In the post you quote I was trying to offer some insight into Burton's take on the character but apparently you only see/read what you want to into things and it's all about ganging up on Hugh. I'm done with you! I can see why we have the "ignore" feature now.

BOTTOM LINE IS IMO....Burton's "Penguin" could have easily been a character in ANY OTHER BURTON FILM.....Just because it was a Batman movie became secondary in regards to the character IMO.

hi--im out at a resturaunt right now posting thru my phone--but geez chill man, the ignore button is for weirdos as far as im concerned---u have the option of not dealing with my posts without blocking them entirely. also please excuse that i thought you were being overly slanted instead of insightful but burton making dark characters doesnt seem particularly insightful to me. bavk to my sushi-- but i just had to post. be cool anthony.

[The Toyroom]

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

DUDE! Back the f' off! I'm not even trying to argue with you and you keep up with the "poor me" routine! Stop being a ******! In the post you quote I was trying to offer some insight into Burton's take on the character but apparently you only see/read what you want to into things and it's all about ganging up on Hugh. I'm done with you! I can see why we have the "ignore" feature now.

BOTTOM LINE IS IMO....Burton's "Penguin" could have easily been a character in ANY OTHER BURTON FILM.....Just because it was a Batman movie became secondary in regards to the character IMO.

[madmarva]

Yeah, I liked Master Jailer and The Atomic Skull back in the 1970s. There was also a cool couple of issues of Action Comics where he took on Amazo. I think it was in those issues that the Super Mobile, imortalized by Super Powers action figure line, first showed up.

There was also the Galactic Golem and Superman had a pretty cool fight with Soloman Grundy in the early 300s of his title.

As for the Penguin, I like him as he's been portrayed lately as a mob boss type of guy. I wouldn't mind seeing Joe Pesci taking a run at the character.

I'd love to see a Batman film where he takes down a Good fellas-type mob. Maybe Batman vs. the Sopranos.

[PNGwynne]

Austin Hough should do an obscure villain of Master Jailer...

I still think Hoffman is an inspired idea (& the best choice) for a Nolan Penguin, esp. after seeing Capote.

[samurainoir]

I would love for Nolan to do a "Gang War" take on the Gotham villains, and I think Philip Seymore Hoffman would be the perfect candidate to go up against Johnny Depp's Riddler with Batman trying desperately to keep the lid on the resulting powder keg.

[samurainoir]

So whatever happened to the Master Jailer anyways?


Did he ever show up Post Crisis?

[PNGwynne]

^lol

Well put, Hue.

BTW, I'm not too familiar with Flaming Carrot, but The Tick is hilarious, as are his foes. How can you not like El Cid & Octave Paganini? And Chairface Chippendale--brilliant!

The Tick is like Batman '66 on acid


Samurai, per your earlier comment on WW's rogues---I'd love to see Paula vG return as a foe and Dr. Psycho given more prominence. His mind-****ing misogyny seems a perfect foil for the Amazon. Hasn't he been used recently in SSSV?

[samurainoir]

Did anyone see March of the Penguins?


It game me an entirely new insight into the plight of the Penguins in Batman Returns.

[huedell]

My specific concern with the Burton Penguin is not the Penguin/Batman duality or the Cobblepot/Wayne duality--these are interesting and have been used in comics as well, and sometimes mixed.

No, my complaint is with making Cobblepot a mutated freak to support these motivations. That is the easy way out, and Batman already has many "freakish" foes whose motivations depend on their freakishness.

I think it is much more challenging, and less superficial, to make Penguin a sane character, insecure about his perceived physical & social shortcomings, and have that serve as his motivation. The Penguin, handled well, can be another negative reflection of Batman/Wayne without adding the cheat of deformity. In fact, deformity pushes the character away from the quasi-legitimacy that has made the character more formidable since the '90s.

i really enjoyed this last post but specifically the chunk I quoted^^^

I have a connection to PENGUIN thru nostalgia---that stuff that me and
Toyroom were going back and forth over earlier----
so I'm always anticipating learning more about the character and seeing him
focused on more than many other Bat-villains.

As much as I love Burton's Penguin, I kinda view that version the same way
I view the characters in SUPERMAN RETURNS....cool....awesome to watch but
ultimately not constructed the best for the "long haul"---granted I'm
over simplifying here but I'm in a rush to make this post....
its basically an alternate reality than what I see as being closer to
the "trueist" versions of the DCU----admittedly most of my vision of that
"truism" comes from BTAS/STAS/JLU etc...and not from the comics
(altho SOME does)....so, I'm game to see what comes next for Penguin and I'm perfectly fine that Burton's remain where it is, a characterization for just
one movie....that dies at the end.