Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[samurainoir]

Flaming Carrot's rouge's gallery is WAY better. Flying Dead Dog, Hitler's Feet, Death, The Chair!!!

Flaming Carrot does have incredibly inventive villains.


Although I put The Tick's just slightly ahead based on animated version of The Mad Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.

[PNGwynne]

^I think the depth of characterization on the "66 show is comparable to comics of the time. Several show scripts were based on actual comics. The camp/satiric element is another layer aimed at adult viewers. I'm not blind to the nuances of the Burton movies, which I often agree with and which you have already detailed.

A "serious" movie made 25 years after a satiric TV adaptation should bring something different or new to the table. But these offerings are not per se classic, iconic or integral to the overall concept of the character. They may be enjoyable within the framework of a specific director's vision, be it Burton or Nolan.

Worthy elements will be embraced & pulled into mainstream comics.

My specific concern with the Burton Penguin is not the Penguin/Batman duality or the Cobblepot/Wayne duality--these are interesting and have been used in comics as well, and sometimes mixed.

No, my complaint is with making Cobblepot a mutated freak to support these motivations. That is the easy way out, and Batman already has many "freakish" foes whose motivations depend on their freakishness.

I think it is much more challenging, and less superficial, to make Penguin a sane character, insecure about his perceived physical & social shortcomings, and have that serve as his motivation. The Penguin, handled well, can be another negative reflection of Batman/Wayne without adding the cheat of deformity. In fact, deformity pushes the character away from the quasi-legitimacy that has made the character more formidable since the '90s.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing DeVito "chew the scenery," as you put it.

[huedell]

I agree The Burton Penguin was just Burtonized. It was more angsty Poe stuff than Cobblepot. He did not to most of the penguins trades and I liked the duckmobile .

Thank goodness because it gave the character depth I have not seen before
or since....stuff that I, frankly, liked.

Merideth "quacked " a lot because he was wasnt a smoker and was actually coughing out the cigarette smoke.

Thank goodness, for if not for that gimmicky "quack" and Meredith's
throaty voice, DeVito wouldn't have gotten his paycheck...nor that juicy part
years later.

Burton was saddled with THE PENGUIN because the 1966 show popularized him....now actually CHARACTERIZING him...that's something that was lacking
in the '66 show and that Burton's attempted to do. Personally, I liked it a lot.

[huedell]

Aheh...doubtless, several members here feel that way with this thread...

Of course, perhaps I'm contradicting myself

Hey...I pointed out exactly where I thought you were doing that
contradiction...if that's not a reason to challenge your take then I don't know what IS.

On the other hand...that quote you just made of mine...it had Toyroom
challenging a point I made by taking a small part of what I said and
unsuccessfully attempting to discredit it (re: Burton's Penguin's
characterization which he attempted say had little thought put into it
when the whole "discarded socialite" aspect was loud and clear in Burton's vision---- and then misdefining "motivation" to boot).

I'm not saying "don't argue"-----I'm just saying don't pick a post apart
to merely argue---welll, that's up for debate----and you can say pot/kettle
....but I'm doing my best.

If you disagree with me saying you contradicted yourself by saying that
you wanted something deeper from DeVito's Penguin yet you still
think Meredith's 1 dimensional quacker of a Penguin had brought the
character better realized than it had ever been....then let's
hear about it, eh?

[TrueDave]

I agree The Burton Penguin was just Burtonized. It was more angsty Poe stuff than Cobblepot. He did not to most of the penguins trades and I liked the duckmobile .

Merideth "quacked " a lot because he was wasnt a smoker and was actually coughing out the cigarette smoke.

least thats what i read back in the day.

[huedell]

I think its a losing battle to put the 1966 show on such a high pedestal
and discredit Burton's Bat-stuff at the same time---especially regarding
the characterization----and especially regarding the characterization of
Penguin in particular.

I believe that the 1966 show was more about a satirical sensibility
that pervaded the whole show and was more than the characters
themselves.

Hate Burton's Bat-stuff---that's totally cool...but the Burton movies
actually defined the characters a bit more...motivations and whatnot---
stuff that the 1966 show didn't address...again, that's fine and
the show was a huge sucess and I loved it....but you can't
paint it into something it wasn't....and conversely you can't take away
from the Burton movies something so basically there....even if you don't like
it...its still there.

[PNGwynne]

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

Aheh...doubtless, several members here feel that way with this thread...

Of course, perhaps I'm contradicting myself

[TrueDave]

Few Stories i read in the 80s really had penguin or riddler as interesting characters. I didnt get to the older stories till later. Penguin was always played a s a joke and riddler as an Idiot.

Watching 66 Batman you actually listened to the guy . Riddler on the other hand would have been a frightening person to be in a room with Manic laughing jumping on furniture and quoting shakesphere.

But the Joker sucked pretty much. Not as bad a s Louis the Lilac but eh . .

Burtons Penguin scared me. I was 20 or so at the time too.

I share your point on the penguin being actually disfigured from birth or not. I have teh same issue with adaptions of The Phantom of the Opera.But opposite.

Why do you say Burtons decison to make Penguin a freak is obvious?

I appreciate the thoughtful comments regarding Penguin in this thread; he is so often easily dismissed.

I don't dislike "freak" Penguin a al Burton/Sales per se, but for me it is a bit of a cop-out/easy way out, & not a classic characterization.

"No Man's Land" & subsequent stories worked hard to give Cobblepot a modern cache. I like his current place as a colorful, eccentric Dick Tracy-type career mobster.

An important facet to consider with the character as an eccentric & "funny little man" is his motivating hatred of people like Bruce Wayne and what the Batman represents.

In this context, making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

[huedell]

Actually, I don't know if anyone has said this yet - but my roommate just wondered if maybe the 60s TV show had a lot to do with getting people more excited about Batman villains in a general sense. Seems possible.

Your roommate should post about it. He probably won't be challenged at all.

[Brazoo]

Actually, I don't know if anyone has said this yet - but my roommate just wondered if maybe the 60s TV show had a lot to do with getting people more excited about Batman villains in a general sense. Seems possible.

[Brazoo]

Flaming Carrot's rouge's gallery is WAY better. Flying Dead Dog, Hitler's Feet, Death, The Chair!!!

[huedell]

Dude ....
You can Doo Doo in this thread all you want ..., Makes absolutely No difference to me , It's your World Hue ,I'm just a Name on a Screen. I was just trying to help The "All Knowing Hue" out a bit ..., But I can see it is all realitively pointless ... , and endless. Believe what you want ..., but remember, it never makes your Nonsense right.

If you're going to call my thought out Batman...Superman stuff
"nonsense" in a blanket statement (over and over)
merely because you don't like what I'm saying, you can try
and "help" me all you want but I'm still going to say you're the
one spewing nonsense....respect works BOTH ways.

[BlackKnight]

I do what I please BK....so double doo doo to you...

Dude ....
You can Doo Doo in this thread all you want ..., Makes absolutely No difference to me , It's your World Hue ,I'm just a Name on a Screen. I was just trying to help The "All Knowing Hue" out a bit ..., But I can see it is all realitively pointless ... , and endless. Believe what you want ..., but remember, it never makes your Nonsense right.

[huedell]

I said comicbook characters Hue ..., I didn't exclude anyone ..., so don't assume I did, nore twist my writes as if I did to further your nonsense. All comicbook characters are Shells of themselves when presented on the big screen ..., and most and all the times, costumes change as well. You don't really have a leg to stand on here Bro ..., you don't read comics, so Ultimately you wouldn't know this, so don't try and argue a point of which you don't seem to have no Knowing. ...

I do what I please BK....so double doo doo to you...

I DO read "some" comics and I sure as heck read what you
comicgeeks/diehards have to say about said comics.
That makes me qualified enough....as does watching them in other media....

Why tell me things that say I'm not qualified and should leave
when you know its a waste of time??? I'm staying.

That aside...I'll let this post of yours slide mainly because
I can't understand it.
This grammar is hard to follow...

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.

You use words like "assume" but hey I don't get what you're saying
so I can't really "assume" can I?

I'll be cool and try to explain this again....

I thought you were trying to say that TV and movie examples
of comic characters didn't apply to the topic because
they are changed for the movies/TV (turned into what you call
"shells of the characters")...I thought that was a poor statement
because these characters have existed for many many years
in the comics and have been addessed by many many writers...so its
virtually "shells" of the character(s) in the comics many times,
just as much as in TV or movies.

[BlackKnight]

I don't think that's fair BK----a character like Batman has been addressed
by a billion writers over the 7 or so DECADES that the character has existed
in the comics.....that makes the comic version on an (almost) equal playing
field to discuss the character's baddies as the versions in movies/TV over
the years I'd say.

I said comicbook characters Hue ..., I didn't exclude anyone ..., so don't assume I did, nore twist my writes as if I did to further your nonsense. All comicbook characters are Shells of themselves when presented on the big screen ..., and most and all the times, costumes change as well. You don't really have a leg to stand on here Bro ..., you don't read comics, so Ultimately you wouldn't know this, so don't try and argue a point of which you don't seem to have no Knowing. ...