Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[PNGwynne]

I appreciate the thoughtful comments regarding Penguin in this thread; he is so often easily dismissed.

I don't dislike "freak" Penguin a al Burton/Sales per se, but for me it is a bit of a cop-out/easy way out, & not a classic characterization.

"No Man's Land" & subsequent stories worked hard to give Cobblepot a modern cache. I like his current place as a colorful, eccentric Dick Tracy-type career mobster.

An important facet to consider with the character as an eccentric & "funny little man" is his motivating hatred of people like Bruce Wayne and what the Batman represents.

In this context, making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

[huedell]

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

Yes, but on an absolutely tongue in cheek show.
I don't think the 1966 show does much for characterization...
it was more bluster for the villains than anything else...
a "scenery chewing" factory.
as compared to most other versions of the Bat-universe following it.

You say:

...making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

yet that's exactly what the 66 show's characterization does for the character
---not in such a thoughtful way as Burton's-----but it still renders him
a quacking pigeonholed one dimensional character.
Not that there's anything wrong with that....but in the context of what you're
saying you want out of the
character, its seems to be a contradiction.

[The Toyroom]

yet that's exactly what the 66 show's characterization does for the character
---not in such a thoughtful way as Burton's-----

Not sure I'd characterize Burton's version of the Penguin as having a lot of "thought" put into it....If you look at characters Burton has created throughout his movies, his version of the Penguin is one that could have as easily appeared in "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpse Bride" or even "Edward Scissorhands". It speaks more of Burton and his sensibilties than it does about the character of The Penguin.

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run. Not alot of originality there as far as plot...which I guess i why we also got Max Schrek

[huedell]

Not sure I'd characterize Burton's version of the Penguin as having a lot of "thought" put into it....If you look at characters Burton has created throughout his movies, his version of the Penguin is one that could have as easily appeared in "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpse Bride" or even "Edward Scissorhands". It speaks more of Burton and his sensibilties than it does about the character of The Penguin.

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run. Not alot of originality there as far as plot...which I guess i why we also got Max Schrek

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

The fact that I said Burton put "thought" into it and that
you are saying Burton was "repeating himself" is secondary to the fact
that it was a deeper character than Burgess' ever could've been----
Buton's being a characterization that fun-housed socialite-priveledged
Bruce Wayne's
-----if you want to say it was Burton's sensibilities that helped
push in that direction----well, it WAS his movie after all so I'd say he has that right.

Burgess' quacked a lot.

You say Burton's stole from the show because there was
a "runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile" plot?

Ha. No one complained when Nolan stole Burton's poison the city
with gas idea in Begins....its all in the execution AND as you pointed out
so deftly....Max shreck was a nice twist to that execution, not to mention
the "TEN COMMANDMENTS" twist of killing all the first born to
avenge the Penguin's unpriveldged life and ruined youth....which
keys into the great ideas that Burton brought to the table.

The 1966 show was fun...but you can't turn it into something that it wasn't...
Burton on the other hand suceeed incredibly with giving the Penguin depth
in an original way....something unfortunately, he didn't do as much
for THE JOKER or CATWOMAN or even BATMAN on the whole.

Still, I think Burton's vision of Batman is the best so far not so much for
the characters as just for an overall vibe to watch the Bat-universe unfold,
balancing the vapid fun of the 1966 show with a little width and
breatdth....something that Nolan suceeded with in spades...and that
I thought was pretty cool, but not as satisying to watch as Burton's stuff
for me personally.

edited to address:

And I've always said that Burton was quick to crib from the '66 series in regards to his motivation of the Penguin....In "Batman Returns" Penguin runs for mayor of Gotham AND steals the Batmobile, two things Burgess Meredith already did during his run.

[/QUOTE]

That's not "motivation" for the character...as I said above those are just
plot points....as you said "things Meredith did".

Just because someone does the same thing as someone else doesn't mean
they did it for the same reason.

[BlackKnight]

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.


It seriously seems a out there.
Considering Most Character's that are transformed in to Movie form, are really only Shell's of themselves and how they are percieved par say to thier Comicbook Identities in the 1st place.

[huedell]

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.


It seriously seems a out there.
Considering Most Character's that are transformed in to Movie form, are really only Shell's of themselves and how they are percieved par say to thier Comicbook Identities in the 1st place.

I don't think that's fair BK----a character like Batman has been addressed
by a billion writers over the 7 or so DECADES that the character has existed
in the comics.....that makes the comic version on an (almost) equal playing
field to discuss the character's baddies as the versions in movies/TV over
the years I'd say.

[BlackKnight]

I don't think that's fair BK----a character like Batman has been addressed
by a billion writers over the 7 or so DECADES that the character has existed
in the comics.....that makes the comic version on an (almost) equal playing
field to discuss the character's baddies as the versions in movies/TV over
the years I'd say.

I said comicbook characters Hue ..., I didn't exclude anyone ..., so don't assume I did, nore twist my writes as if I did to further your nonsense. All comicbook characters are Shells of themselves when presented on the big screen ..., and most and all the times, costumes change as well. You don't really have a leg to stand on here Bro ..., you don't read comics, so Ultimately you wouldn't know this, so don't try and argue a point of which you don't seem to have no Knowing. ...

[huedell]

I said comicbook characters Hue ..., I didn't exclude anyone ..., so don't assume I did, nore twist my writes as if I did to further your nonsense. All comicbook characters are Shells of themselves when presented on the big screen ..., and most and all the times, costumes change as well. You don't really have a leg to stand on here Bro ..., you don't read comics, so Ultimately you wouldn't know this, so don't try and argue a point of which you don't seem to have no Knowing. ...

I do what I please BK....so double doo doo to you...

I DO read "some" comics and I sure as heck read what you
comicgeeks/diehards have to say about said comics.
That makes me qualified enough....as does watching them in other media....

Why tell me things that say I'm not qualified and should leave
when you know its a waste of time??? I'm staying.

That aside...I'll let this post of yours slide mainly because
I can't understand it.
This grammar is hard to follow...

I really don't see the point in consistantly bringing up the points, are rather Arguemental statements if compairing TV And Movie shows as to the Belief this is Why Batman's Rogue's are better than Superman's.

You use words like "assume" but hey I don't get what you're saying
so I can't really "assume" can I?

I'll be cool and try to explain this again....

I thought you were trying to say that TV and movie examples
of comic characters didn't apply to the topic because
they are changed for the movies/TV (turned into what you call
"shells of the characters")...I thought that was a poor statement
because these characters have existed for many many years
in the comics and have been addessed by many many writers...so its
virtually "shells" of the character(s) in the comics many times,
just as much as in TV or movies.

[BlackKnight]

I do what I please BK....so double doo doo to you...

Dude ....
You can Doo Doo in this thread all you want ..., Makes absolutely No difference to me , It's your World Hue ,I'm just a Name on a Screen. I was just trying to help The "All Knowing Hue" out a bit ..., But I can see it is all realitively pointless ... , and endless. Believe what you want ..., but remember, it never makes your Nonsense right.

[huedell]

Dude ....
You can Doo Doo in this thread all you want ..., Makes absolutely No difference to me , It's your World Hue ,I'm just a Name on a Screen. I was just trying to help The "All Knowing Hue" out a bit ..., But I can see it is all realitively pointless ... , and endless. Believe what you want ..., but remember, it never makes your Nonsense right.

If you're going to call my thought out Batman...Superman stuff
"nonsense" in a blanket statement (over and over)
merely because you don't like what I'm saying, you can try
and "help" me all you want but I'm still going to say you're the
one spewing nonsense....respect works BOTH ways.

[Brazoo]

Flaming Carrot's rouge's gallery is WAY better. Flying Dead Dog, Hitler's Feet, Death, The Chair!!!

[Brazoo]

Actually, I don't know if anyone has said this yet - but my roommate just wondered if maybe the 60s TV show had a lot to do with getting people more excited about Batman villains in a general sense. Seems possible.

[huedell]

Actually, I don't know if anyone has said this yet - but my roommate just wondered if maybe the 60s TV show had a lot to do with getting people more excited about Batman villains in a general sense. Seems possible.

Your roommate should post about it. He probably won't be challenged at all.

[TrueDave]

Few Stories i read in the 80s really had penguin or riddler as interesting characters. I didnt get to the older stories till later. Penguin was always played a s a joke and riddler as an Idiot.

Watching 66 Batman you actually listened to the guy . Riddler on the other hand would have been a frightening person to be in a room with Manic laughing jumping on furniture and quoting shakesphere.

But the Joker sucked pretty much. Not as bad a s Louis the Lilac but eh . .

Burtons Penguin scared me. I was 20 or so at the time too.

I share your point on the penguin being actually disfigured from birth or not. I have teh same issue with adaptions of The Phantom of the Opera.But opposite.

Why do you say Burtons decison to make Penguin a freak is obvious?

I appreciate the thoughtful comments regarding Penguin in this thread; he is so often easily dismissed.

I don't dislike "freak" Penguin a al Burton/Sales per se, but for me it is a bit of a cop-out/easy way out, & not a classic characterization.

"No Man's Land" & subsequent stories worked hard to give Cobblepot a modern cache. I like his current place as a colorful, eccentric Dick Tracy-type career mobster.

An important facet to consider with the character as an eccentric & "funny little man" is his motivating hatred of people like Bruce Wayne and what the Batman represents.

In this context, making him an actual "freak" actually dulls opportunities for character definition/expansion.

And, yes, even after all these years, Meredith's spirit pervades...Why not--he was perhaps the most perfectly realized foe of the series, along with Gorshin's Riddler.

[PNGwynne]

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

Aheh...doubtless, several members here feel that way with this thread...

Of course, perhaps I'm contradicting myself