Question about Return of the Jedi

[Vortigern99]

Anyone who is interested in the original scripts can read them for themselves at http://www.starwarz.com/starkiller/

There is also the Lucasbooks-published Annotated Screenplays edited by L. Bouzereau.

All of this material directly contradicts Lucas' assertions about the origins of Darth Vader. If Vader was intended to be synonomous with Luke's father, Lucas never wrote it down and kept it in his mind only as a possibility, while in fact deciding on the exact opposite course for the plot: making Vader and Anakin two separate characters -- until the third draft of ESB.

To answer Huedell's question, written material is only important when discussing a supposed master screenplay hitting all the plot points of ESB and ROTJ. (What other kind of screenplay could he mean? An imaginary one? An orally-dictated one?) Lucas' fabled 'big script' simply does not exist.

[huedell]

I was done with this thread days ago.

Obviously not. Quit cryin' ya geeks!

(I don't know what's more "nerdier"--- carrying on this conversation for a long time
or actually putting a limit on how long it can go!)

[huedell]

If Vader was intended to be synonomous with Luke's father, Lucas never wrote it down and kept it in his mind only as a possibility, while in fact deciding on the exact opposite course for the plot: making Vader and Anakin two separate characters -- until the third draft of ESB.

And whether they were two seperate characters or not---they never showed
up in ANH as two characters---only TALKED about in very tense ambiguous
dialogue recited by BEN and OWEN (and BERU too I guess)---people
who would want to hide the truth from him...and don't get me started on
the definition of what I mean by "tense"---I mean, even BERU'S line:
"...too much of his father in him..." is placed and delivered in such a way,
well....

To answer Huedell's question, written material is only important when discussing a supposed master screenplay hitting all the plot points of ESB and ROTJ. (What other kind of screenplay could he mean? An imaginary one? An orally-dictated one?) Lucas' fabled 'big script' simply does not exist.

I think the point is moot...because, lets say he said an actual FULL SCRIPT
existed (and maybe he has been so literal with that statement---I don't
know)----Lucas still would've HAD to keep it private due to the surprise(s)

Regardless...
At the point the third draft ESB was being put together, all LUCAS would've had
to do is change a few lines of dialogue near the end to take "the leap"
A "leap" that LUCAS maintains he had been considering for a LONG time...
and, yeah, I believe him.

[johnmiic]

Obviously not. Quit cryin' ya geeks!

Yep, like I said, no fun anymore.

[Vortigern99]

And whether they were two seperate characters or not---they never showed
up in ANH as two characters---only TALKED about in very tense ambiguous
dialogue recited by BEN and OWEN (and BERU too I guess)---people
who would want to hide the truth from him...and don't get me started on
the definition of what I mean by "tense"---I mean, even BERU'S line:
"...too much of his father in him..." is placed and delivered in such a way,
well....

I agree it all jibes beautifully, which is part of my reason for recognizing Lucas' genius on this score. The fact that it all falls into place is a wonder of imaginative storytelling. But keep in mind that the first two drafts of ESB -- one by Lucas and one by Brackett -- did not have the Vader-as-father subplot, and in fact Brackett's draft featured a visit by the ghost of Luke's very benevolent, non-Vader, dead father. Also, there is the matter of the two existing as separate characters in the early drafts, which refutes Lucas' assertions that the story was "always about this monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero." The hero's father in the first three of four drafts of the original film was a benevolent Jedi who existed in the same time frame as, and separate from, Darth Vader.

I think the point is moot...because, lets say he said an actual FULL SCRIPTexisted (and maybe he has been so literal with that statement---I don't know)----Lucas still would've HAD to keep it private due to the surprise(s)

The fact is, Lucas does maintain the fiction of a "master script" that contained the plots of all three movies; I can furnish direct quotes if you like. You yourself raised this very point, which is why i'm rebutting it. As far as secrecy goes, the Annotated Screenplays were published in 1997, 14 years after the release of ROTJ. By then the whole movie-going world knew that Vader was Luke's father; the idea had become part of the public consciousness. There would have been no need to keep "secret" this master screenplay. Bouzereau, the editor of the Lucasbooks-published AS, worked with every treatment and draft of STAR WARS ever written.

Regardless...
At the point the third draft ESB was being put together, all LUCAS would've had
to do is change a few lines of dialogue near the end to take "the leap"
A "leap" that LUCAS maintains he had been considering for a LONG time...
and, yeah, I believe him.

If he considered it, he never wrote it down in any form, and in fact wrote down the exact opposite plotline, that Vader and Luke's father were distinct individuals living in the same frame of time, thus rendering invalid his assertions that SW was "always about a monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero."

[huedell]

But keep in mind that the first two drafts of ESB -- one by Lucas and one by Brackett -- did not have the Vader-as-father subplot, and in fact Brackett's draft featured a visit by the ghost of Luke's very benevolent, non-Vader, dead father.

That's pretty cool. Of course, ultimately, Lucas wasn't satisfied with that "safer"
direction---but I can understand why it was being considered so far into the process
for Brackett to have drafted a version of that up.

If he considered it, he never wrote it down in any form, and in fact wrote down the exact opposite plotline, that Vader and Luke's father were distinct individuals living in the same frame of time, thus rendering invalid his assertions that SW was "always about a monster villain who turns out to be the father of the hero."

And, even though that's not exactly what the full aspect of our debate was here,
I DO realize that's a big part of it----and your entire point here.

The fact is, Lucas does maintain the fiction of a "master script" that contained the plots of all three movies; I can furnish direct quotes if you like. You yourself raised this very point, which is why i'm rebutting it.

Ashamedly, I admit that in this lengthy thread I have brought up a FEW points
that I wish I wouldn't have for matters of keeping this debate/discussion reined in
so as to have less to ponder over---but---hey---ya live and ya learn

Yeah---an actual FULL SCRIPT never existed (or Lucas would've shown it by now--
wouldn't he have?)---and it sounds like Lucas said it did indeed exist(?)...

In the end, there's still the idea of what was in LUCAS' head and in "private treatments"
for the potential paths for the SKYWALKER FAMILY TREE

It seems this whole topic is too vague/too "loophole" ready to be definitive---
---altho' a 350 + page book is a nice start!

[Hector]

The new trilogy blows and they should all be destroyed for humanity's sake.

[huedell]

The new trilogy blows and they should all be destroyed for humanity's sake.

And by "they" you mean JarJar's family of course

[MIB41]

The Emperor: "Funny, I have never felt him..." That pretty much sums it up for me.

[danadoll]

I was always perplexed by this...Darth Vader could feel a powerful Force presense when Obi Wan arrived on the Death Star in "New Hope", right?...Apparently both Luke AND Leia also have very powerful ties to the Force (via Anakin/Vader), yet he did not sense it in either of them in the first film? Leia was his prisoner on the DS and Vader even personally interrogated her, but he sensed nothing in that whole time?

The only time he sensed the Force in Luke is at the end of the film, when he is trying to stop Luke from destroying the Death Star?...Odd.

I don't believe that Lucas had the entire story/trilogy plotted out...I do think he changed things as the story progressed.

Keep in mind it's a long time since I've seen the original films, unaltered.

Dana

[huedell]

I don't believe that Lucas had the entire story/trilogy plotted out...I do think he
changed things as the story progressed.

Keep in mind that during this whole thread I've been the most supportive of Lucas
having certain key ideas "in mind" as the original 3 flicks were put together---and even
I agree with all that stuff you said about Luke/Leia's and Darth's "force detection"
and the incongruent stuff there

If one thing this LONG thread has trumpted all throughout is that the
bits that LUCAS (may have) pre-planned were in a very small amount indeed...
there's too much proving that to support the contrary.

[Vortigern99]

In all my grumblings about Lucas' lack of forthcomingness about the true origins, even I acknowledge that he did indeed have certain "key ideas" worked out regarding the prequels. This is demonstrably true because we have interviews from 1977-1980 (in Starlog and RS and other magazines) in which Lucas discusses the duel between Vader and Kenobi over volcanic lava, and also, perhaps more surprisingly, the clone origins of the Stormtroopers and the backstory of Boba Fett as the original "superstormtrooper" clone.

However, that said, I must remind that the SEQUELS -- ESB and ROTJ -- were created out of whole cloth in the pre-production phases of those films, as can be seen from the way the drafts take shape: from having NO resemblance to the eventual shooting scripts, to being the finished products we see dramatized on-screen today.

[monkey tennis]

Bumpity Bump

[The Bat]

What really botherr Me the most about ROTJ was...when Lucas took out the Ewok song at the ending!!

[Brue]

Lucas did not have sequels let alone prequels in mind.

As with any movie there was stuff that needed rewritten and edited - could this stuff be used in future films? Sure. This is true with every story.

Does any of episode 1 - 3 make any sense? Not unless you have really twisted revisionist logic. Best just to pretend these films don't exist. ROTJ wasn't much better. Even Empire, though a great film in it's own right, steps on the storyline somewhat.

The one thing I will give Lucas foresight on is the prologue to the Star Wars novel which basically summarizes the prequels (mercifully in 2 or 3 pages) - of course the same novel reads "From the adventures of Luke Skywalker" on the cover - which, considering Luke wasn't in the prequels that he NEVER had any intention of writing such stories.

-Oh, by the way I skipped several pages of reading in this thread - so sorry if I repeated anything someone already addressed