Question about Return of the Jedi

[Vortigern99]

Hudell, the reason I posted a summary of the discrepancies between the documented version of SW's origins, and Lucas' latter-day statements contradicting the evidence, is that there was at least one member here -- like me and you, a fellow SW lover -- who seemed to have no idea that such a controversy existed. I like and respect all fans of the Saga, and the fact that some appear to accept the official line regarding SW's history inspired me to post the alternative, "secret" or opposing account.

You then posted a reply that expounded on the "Flash Gordon serial" aspect of SW, which is irrelevant to my point -- and on the fluid nature of the creative process, which I readily regard as valid but again, irrelevant to my point about discrepancies in the differing accounts of SW's origins.

Vortigern---its not so much that "I missed your point" as
I guess I just was addressing YOUR points as if
I was moreso talking to some of the others that have posted
in this thread ---as, at some times I thought you
were doing something strange by seemingly pressing
points which I felt like we were long past realizing
and by doing that, contributing to some misundersandings
regarding issues that we WEREN'T "past realizing"
and giving others on this thread fodder for complicating
some points of my own I was trying to make...

(The most apparent point being the obvious thing of
VADER AS LUKE'S FATHER coming into play VERY late
in the game...I thought we settled that early on
in the thread)

I realize the above explanation is a bit tricky to decipher
---but re-read it a few times and you may get what I'm
trying to say

Regardless---I think I know what you're getting at with your posts
----especialy after skimming thru your great book

[huedell]

Hudell, the reason I posted a summary of the discrepancies between the documented version of SW's origins, and Lucas' latter-day statements contradicting the evidence, is that there was at least one member here -- like me and you, a fellow SW lover -- who seemed to have no idea that such a controversy existed. I like and respect all fans of the Saga, and the fact that some appear to accept the official line regarding SW's history inspired me to post the alternative, "secret" or opposing account.

You then posted a reply that expounded on the "Flash Gordon serial" aspect of SW, which is irrelevant to my point -- and on the fluid nature of the creative process, which I readily regard as valid but again, irrelevant to my point about discrepancies in the differing accounts of SW's origins.

The FLASH GORDON stuff I was expounding upon had nothing
to do with anything except as some kind of gauge to
show the other posters what LUCAS' intent was regarding the
origins of STAR WARS sequels----not many know that George
tried to get the rights to do FG movies and failed---I
didn't mention he was "denied", btw

If you're saying NEW HOPE was the only movie planned
up until 1978---well, I'd say that's a falsity as directly
before---maybe just as he was about to shoot ANH---
if you're so inclined to think so---George split
LUKE'S STORY up into three movies---if the
"3 ACTS turned into 3 MOVIES" story is a big lie by LUCAS
well, ---that's just an awful big lie---and, in addition, a
hard lie to pull off without reprecussions of others like
KASDAN and any one related to that group around then
saying: TWO DEATH STARS GEORGE? "NO EFFIN WAY"

This is a tricky subject to discuss on a message board because the
subject matter is very intricate---because of that---we basically
just posted the same sentiment towards each other regarding
not wanting the details of the others posts to mislead other posters
into misinterpreting our own posts that seemingly look we are trying
disprove the other---or don't understand the other--
-so, okay--now that that's stated--on to the next point---if there
is one

[Vortigern99]

Well, we certainly agree about the Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers/Republic serial influence on SW. No objections there at all.

But as to the assertion, made by Lucas, that he had all three movies conceived as one giant script, which he broke up and produced three movies out of, is demonstrably untrue. This can be proven beyond dispute by the Lucasbooks published Annotated Screenplays, edited by L. Bouzereau. In this work, every one of the early drafts and treatments of the original 1977film is summarized and commented on by the editor, supplemented by interviews with Lucas, Kasdan, Kutz, et al. None of these drafts show the massive script Lucas speaks of.

In fact, the early drafts of ESB and ROTJ are entirely different from what appeared in the final films, showing that the events and characters of the later two episodes were not conceived of until the writing of those screenplays. There was no "master script" containing the plot points of ESB and ROTJ in any form whatsoever. (NB: Again, there is nothing unusual or reprehensible about this of itself; the issue is that Lucas says one thing and the scripts say another.)

The only way in which this story has any validity is the ground battle in the forest -- originally conceived of as being on what became Yavin, and involving Wookiees (who in the early drafts actually learn to pilot starcraft in the battle aginst the Empire). That battle by primitives (who became Ewoks in ROTJ) is the only element from the early drafts of the 1977 film that is used in either of the sequels. This hardly constitutes a "master screenplay" covering the events of all three movies.

Yes, from the beginning Lucas did consider making sequels, hoping that the original 1977 movie would be a modest success. Since he could have had no idea how successful the film would become, and since in those days sequels were lower-budgeted than their originals, he considred that he might make a low-budget sequel. To this end he hired Alan Dean Foster -- ghost writer of the novielization of 'Star Wars' -- to work out a story. After the first movie was a huge hit, Lucas jettisoned the Foster-penned sequel as a movie, but it became Splinter in the Mind's Eye, the first non-novelization SW book. (Foster talks about this in an interview which I can supply if you ask.)

The FLASH GORDON stuff I was expounding upon had nothing
to do with anything except as some kind of gauge to
show the other posters what LUCAS' intent was regarding the
origins of STAR WARS sequels----not many know that George
tried to get the rights to do FG movies and failed---I
didn't mention he was "denied", btw

If you're saying NEW HOPE was the only movie planned
up until 1978---well, I'd say that's a falsity as directly
before---maybe just as he was about to shoot ANH---
if you're so inclined to think so---George split
LUKE'S STORY up into three movies---if the
"3 ACTS turned into 3 MOVIES" story is a big lie by LUCAS
well, ---that's just an awful big lie---and, in addition, a
hard lie to pull off without reprecussions of others like
KASDAN and any one related to that group around then
saying: TWO DEATH STARS GEORGE? "NO EFFIN WAY"

This is a tricky subject to discuss on a message board because the
subject matter is very intricate---because of that---we basically
just posted the same sentiment towards each other regarding
not wanting the details of the others posts to mislead other posters
into misinterpreting our own posts that seemingly look we are trying
disprove the other---or don't understand the other--
-so, okay--now that that's stated--on to the next point---if there
is one

[huedell]

Yes, from the beginning Lucas did consider making sequels, hoping that the original 1977 movie would be a modest success. Since he could have had no idea how successful the film would become, and since in those days sequels were lower-budgeted than their originals, he considred that he might make a low-budget sequel. To this end he hired Alan Dean Foster -- ghost writer of the novielization of 'Star Wars' -- to work out a story. After the first movie was a huge hit, Lucas jettisoned the Foster-penned sequel as a movie, but it became Splinter in the Mind's Eye, the first non-novelization SW book. (Foster talks about this in an interview which I can supply if you ask.)

This was part of my main point that, firstly, Lucas did indeed have sequels
planned...and secondly, altho' there may have been no master SCRIPT
for the sequels, that indeed there was a master STORY that was divided
into three acts. If Lucas says there was an ACTUAL script...and its documented
that there was NO script...well that confuses the heck out of me---because that
means that Lucas is telling a lie that doesn't even need to be told.
(He could always stick by the idea that he had the STORY at that later point
and that he never bothered writing anything resembling a script at that
late point because it was so close to the time that he had started shooting ANH)

As far as FOSTER'S "SPLINTER"---I thought Lucas had that ghostwritten in the meantime
as a quick STAR WARS fix for fans that involved yet ANOTHER loose STAR WARS
plot that wasn't as complicated/"cool" as what was going to happen in EMPIRE,
but could have been FILMED for a lot less money because it basically all took place on one simple planet...
but now wasn't even considered being filmed because, of course ANH was such a big hit.
(EDITED TO SAY: DANG! THat's pretty much what you just said!)

Also, its interesting to note that LEIA goes up against VADER in a lightsaber fight in
that story---I always felt that that was heavy foreshadowing on what LUCAS
planned to do regarding her "FORCE DNA"...but, certainly I could be wrong about that.

Man, I miss reading that book! I gotta buy it again! And I heard they made a graphic
novel of it. Did they make action figures based on SPLINTER yet? That would rule.
No offense to Zahn fans, but I think SPLINTER blows those books away.

[DocDrako]

They did indeed make a graphic novel of it, but it's been awhile since I read it. I've read the book twice, and I really like it. I haven't read any of the Zahn books.

[Mikey]

This thread just got really boring.........

Hue isn't mad and defensive anymore

m

[huedell]

Thanks for the confirmation Doc^^^^
The thing that's cool about the idea of there being a graphic novel
of it is that now there's definitive costumes for Luke & Leia
in that story as well as a visual look for the WUZZEM(?)---the
two hairy guys that helped out----and Hallah(?) the mystical old
woman----I'm going to go to the SOTME entry right now & read up
---and I'm sure I'll be well-informed about all that stuff I'm curious about.
(Jeez, until Vort brought up SOTME, I hadn't thought about it for a LONG time!)

[Vortigern99]

Agreed Splinter is a sweet read. The reason I bring it up is to show that the events of ESB and ROTJ, despite what Lucas says about his "master script split into three movies", were not actually written in any form until after the resounding success of the first 1977 movie.

Foster speaks on the issue to echostation.com:

Alan Dean Foster: "I was contacted in 1975 by Lucas' representatives to do the novelization of the first Star Wars film, plus an original sequel...As far as I know, Empire was no more than a snow glint in Lucas's eye when I was writing Splinter. The fact that Splinter fits after-the-fact as well as it does into the arching storyline of the saga is a delightful coincidence."

[huedell]

This thread just got really boring.........

Hue isn't mad and defensive anymore

m

Like its THAT hard for you to figure out how
to fire me up once again

[Mikey]

Just kidding Hue,,,,,
You're GREAT !!!


m

[huedell]

The reason I bring it up is to show that the events of ESB and ROTJ, despite
what Lucas says about his "master script split into three movies", were not actually
WRITTEN IN ANY FORM until after the resounding success of the first 1977 movie.

Hmmm...does something have to be "written" and shared for it be a legit
thing in STAR WARS history?

Up until this moment, I've maintained that LUCAS was always telling the truth
about the BASIC events in ESB and ROTJ being in place as ANH was being
started/filmed (minus things like the character YODA who was originally BEN for example)
and that LUCAS kept the family revelations underwraps because
of the necessity for the "shock" value to the public.

If he's absolutely LYING about this---then I concede LUCAS is one of the biggest liars
I've ever heard and I just don't get why he'd go on record and repeatedly
tell that DEATH STAR anecdote alongside his trepidations for the family stuff
which would (if he were lying) not be "TREPIDATIONS" at all, but out and out "NEVER WERES".

If THAT'S the case then everything I've said in this thread up til this point would be
based on a huge lie which, I don't get just WHY Lucas would go through the trouble
of telling----not to mention how (as I mentined above in this post) how the
original movies never outright contradict what Lucas said he had planned.

As far as what FOSTER said about his novel working within the saga being
"coincidence"---well, there's a heckuva lotta "coincidences" aren't there...
i.e. it seems LUCAS was planning the surprises ahead of time albeit waffling
whether to go thru with them in the end---how else do you explain the plots
never TRULY crossing the line into "no return" i.e. a scene of VADER murdering
ANAKIN in a flashback or some sort of irreversible decision that would've negated
the SKYWALKER FAMILY STUFF potential to be used?

[huedell]

Just kidding Hue,,,,,
You're GREAT !!!

http://myspace-645.vo.llnwd.net/00533/54/69/533429645_m.gif

m

Only a REAL Futurama fan would've caught the goatee, and the
humor connected with that character and his personality

On that mindframe---
if you are FLEXO---then I am the deformed lovechild of
ZOIDBERG and CALCULON

[Bizarro Amy]

Is this thread still going?
It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way. I couldn't get through all the posts to find out. So if there was something I needed to respond to, I apologize. I kind of got lost in there.
I do, however, recall someone mentioning that the SW novels are garbage. Yes, some of them were. I only recently got into them. I struggled through the "Bounty Hunter Wars" storyline and was actually relieved to have finished the chore. The Zahn books were pretty good. I'm also getting ready to read "Shadows of the Empire," because there are a few characters there that intrigue me. But if you want a really good read, check out the "Legacy of the Force" series. Great stuff, dealing with the offspring of the Skywalker and Solo clans and other fun stuff. Also, the current "Star Wars:Legacy" comic is a fantastic read.(What is it with titles that include Legacy?) It takes place something like 50-100 years after Return of the Jedi. It's one of my favorite things when I pick up my monthly comic subscriptions.

[huedell]

It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way.

No can do.

[johnmiic]

Is this thread still going?
It was fun debating plot points and inconsistencies of the SW universe, but please tell me you guys aren't still arguing over what was planned from the start and what was made up along the way.

I was done with this thread days ago. It t'aint no fun no maw!