Is Sabbath, Zeppelin & Alice METAL ?

[nvmbrsdoom5]

And I could never understand that whole "Maiden vs. Priest" mentality that alot of fans took. Why was it a competition? Both bands were/are awesome, and quite different from each other, I might add. That's one thing that's always irked me about the metal scene, how so many metalheads were always so quick to pick sides and bicker with each other about bands, styles, etc. Kinda goes back to what we were saying earlier about the folly of trying to categorize everything, when so much stuff defies easy categorization anyhow.

[The Sentry]

Hey there Sentry, nice post you made in reponse to mine, some interesting points....

One thing I want to address though, was your statement about bands with "cookie monster vocals with no soul". I think that's maybe a generalization that's not completely fair, to be honest. My band utilises quite a bit of those "cookie monster" vocals but we have plenty of feeling and soul in our music as well. Yeah your Cannibal Corpse variety of metal bands are pretty much all brutality and no feel, to some degree, but there are others of us out there who are trying to do a more interesting blend of styles, incorporating the brutal heavier stuff along with elements of prog, folk, and traditional hard rock/metal. Another band who comes to mind that follows this parth are OPETH, or bands like MY DYING BRIDE, to name only a couple. I realise that the death metal vocal style is not for everyone but I hope that maybe people can give it an open-minded listen because there's alot more to bands like mine and the others like us than just mindless crunch and brutality. I'm just as influenced by Pink Floyd and Trouble and The Doors as I am Morbid Angel and Slayer, and I think it's reflected in the stuff we write (or at least we're trying!)

Oh good call on the Warrior Soul mention. Always loved that band. Kory is singing for the band TROUBLE now, some Chicago area heroes/friends of mine, can't wait to see how that pairing works out.

Thanks, I have been a Kory fan since 1989 when I hear "We Cry Out" I was "blown away". I even liked "Dirty Rig" Oh yeah? Wow! Cool! I always liked them. Now to the what you said atop.........


I think your band sounds great! Yeah, there is some of that, but it's in different keys, monotone stuff is boring to me. But I can understand your Vocalist.

There are alot of these younger bands around here that are doing stuff that sounds so much alike I get headaches. I mean the whole set sounds like one song with long pauses. So I hear that alot more than whats out in the mainstream.

You are right it is an aqquired taste. But hey, to each his own.

[The Sentry]

And I could never understand that whole "Maiden vs. Priest" mentality that alot of fans took. Why was it a competition? Both bands were/are awesome, and quite different from each other, I might add. That's one thing that's always irked me about the metal scene, how so many metalheads were always so quick to pick sides and bicker with each other about bands, styles, etc. Kinda goes back to what we were saying earlier about the folly of trying to categorize everything, when so much stuff defies easy categorization anyhow.

I never heard one fan of one bad mouth the other so to say, but they were territorial, ya know? I never got that with the people around here. You were Maiden people or Priest People. Yeah drama was always a staple too. *sighs* the one thing I did dislke about it. Very much like rap in that respect. No one could get along, but what the Hell am I talking about, we as Americans have bigger problems right now rather than who would win a wrestling match, beetween Eddie and Alister Fiend (The Crue's short-lived mascot)

[Beatnik]

Hmmmmmmmm, Trouble without Wagner??????? I dunno about that, his vocals are so much a part of their sound.

As for Priest/Maiden. I was a huge Maiden fan right up through Piece Of Mind, kinda lost me after that. Never even thought of comparing the two bands, totally different approaches, how could you?

Clive Burr was a definite loss for Maiden, as was Les Binks in Priest. Don't get me wrong, Nicko is a good drummer ("Piece Of Mind" and Travers "Life In London" are excellent examples), just started to all sound the same after a while to me. As for Priest, Dave Holland.............

This is from a drummers perspective.

[The Sentry]

I don't know, I mean when I was a teen and would tell people I was a Maiden fan, they would either reply, "Me too." or, "I'm a Priest fan". Never got that. Oh well but it still holds true! Number of the Beast is my favorite Maiden album. What a timeless classic. Martin "Marvin" Birch was a genius. His production with Maiden is where I stopped at, sure I have everything after his production run, but his work with the band was amazing. Clive was an incredible drummer. It's a terrible shame what he's had to go through. Thank God Maiden have come to his aid. Taking nothing away from Nic, Clive was the better drummer, I mean that fill in "Gangland"? Get outta here.........

But I do however like Scott Travis. Great drummer.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Nice, I'm definitely a big fan of Clive as well, moreso than Nicko.

As for Trouble, yeah everyone is real curious about how that's gonna work out without Eric, but I'm a big fan of Kory and he's pretty diverse so I'm interested to see how it sounds.

Y'know getting back on topic a bit, a big part of the debate with those old bands being considered "metal" or not I think is also based on what you personally consider to be true metal. If your idea of metal is Iron Maiden and Slayer and those bands who fit in-between, then I can see you thinking that Zep or Cooper don't belong there. But I listen to so much different kinds of metal (because there's about 48723465 different sub-genres of metal these days!), it just doesn't seem a stretch at all to consider Zeppelin a metal band. Though I prefer to think of it as, "Zeppelin had their metal moments", which is more accurate to my mind.

[Cosmicman]

I must have been up late when I posted that post awhile back. I get tired and my eyes must have been blurry.

Alice Cooper is metal. I am sure he didn't intend for himself to be "metal" when he started.
I found an old LP from 1973 titled, "Heavy Metal." It was a compilation record featurning artists like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin....and get this' T. Tex. The Doors, Buffalo Springfield, Jimmi Hendrix, J. Geils Band, ...etc. ***?

The Doors? Wow! The term "Heavy Metal" was around back then but what they called "Heavy Metal" is not considered heavy metal today.

Someone mentioned Anthrax earlier. My opinion, John Bush sucked as Anthrax's vocalist. He belongs in Armored Saint and apparently he got the idea and is going to stay there permanently and keep out of Anthrax for good!
If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.
Now Joey is out of the band and apparently they are shopping for a new singer again and hopefully they will change the name like they should of when Joey left earlier and they made a mockery out of the band with Bush singing.

Now back to your regular scheduled program...

[cjefferys]

Ah didn't know we had some black metal fans around these parts I enjoy those bands as well. Some of the CoF guys are friends of mine (well I should say ex-CoF guys, as the current lineup has changed once again *sigh*)

That's really cool, which CoF ex-members do you know? I've followed the band since their "Vempire" EP, so I'm familiar with most of the past members (it's too bad they change their line up so often, it seems like whenever a new album comes out, you can only depend on Dani being on it for sure ). At any rate, they've had their ups and downs, but they've been one of my favourite bands for about 12 years now.

[cjefferys]

If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.

I agree with you 100% on that one.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

That's really cool, which CoF ex-members do you know? I've followed the band since their "Vempire" EP, so I'm familiar with most of the past members (it's too bad they change their line up so often, it seems like whenever a new album comes out, you can only depend on Dani being on it for sure ). At any rate, they've had their ups and downs, but they've been one of my favourite bands for about 12 years now.

Martin (Powell, keyboards) is a friend of mine, having known him since his My Dying Bride days. I still keep in touch with him now and then, he's been going to school again and just taking it easier for a while. He filled in a bit with Tiamat last year, but not sure what his next musical plans are. Adrian and Pybus are acquaintances of mine too, and Sarah's always been very nice when I've met her. My roommate has worked for them on and off over the past several years as well so I've been around the band plenty of times, though I'm not so acquainted with the new guys in the band.

[ctc]

>for the most part it all sounds the same to me.

That's probably 'cos by now you've got a huge repitoire of music stored in your head; and a lot of it ISN'T new to you. I get the same way with comic books.

>I could never understand that whole "Maiden vs. Priest" mentality that alot of fans took.

In general, people have this insane need to "back the winner." Which of course means there HAS to be a winner. Part of that is the idea that old is bad. Judas Priest ARE the Gods of Metal. Really. BUT when you listen to their stuff NOW it doesn't sound like most people's idea of Metal. It's closer to hard rock. But that's the result of growth and experimentation from others; like Maiden. Maiden fronted the "new wave" of Metal in the 80's (along with Metallica) and for a lot of fans, especially those who got into the music at that time THIS sound defines Metal. So everything before is invalid, 'cos the new groups are "the winner."

>I bet there are people out there who love them equally, but I have never met one!

Yes you have.....

>Alice Cooper is metal.

Yup. Same principle. He doesn't sound like what people consider Metal NOW; but his style of showmanship, presentation and preoccupation with the sinister set the tone for what came later. As I recall, Alice was the first group referred to as "Heavy Metal."

>I love Tull, but I agree they aren't "Metal"

I thought so too.... but I had a conversation with an oldschool metalhead and he pointed out that the SOUND is most definitely NOT metal, but a lot of their ideas and themes are. Illigitimate cousins of metal maybe?

Don C.

[cjefferys]

Martin (Powell, keyboards) is a friend of mine, having known him since his My Dying Bride days. I still keep in touch with him now and then, he's been going to school again and just taking it easier for a while. He filled in a bit with Tiamat last year, but not sure what his next musical plans are. Adrian and Pybus are acquaintances of mine too, and Sarah's always been very nice when I've met her. My roommate has worked for them on and off over the past several years as well so I've been around the band plenty of times, though I'm not so acquainted with the new guys in the band.

That's awesome. Hell, I'd be happy just to actually see the band perform, but I always seem to miss them whenever they playing somewhere fairly close by. Have you met Dani too? I've always been curious about what he is actually like.

[grayhank]

Deleted

[hobub]

I must have been up late when I posted that post awhile back. I get tired and my eyes must have been blurry.

Alice Cooper is metal. I am sure he didn't intend for himself to be "metal" when he started.
I found an old LP from 1973 titled, "Heavy Metal." It was a compilation record featurning artists like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin....and get this' T. Tex. The Doors, Buffalo Springfield, Jimmi Hendrix, J. Geils Band, ...etc. ***?

The Doors? Wow! The term "Heavy Metal" was around back then but what they called "Heavy Metal" is not considered heavy metal today.

Someone mentioned Anthrax earlier. My opinion, John Bush sucked as Anthrax's vocalist. He belongs in Armored Saint and apparently he got the idea and is going to stay there permanently and keep out of Anthrax for good!
If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.
Now Joey is out of the band and apparently they are shopping for a new singer again and hopefully they will change the name like they should of when Joey left earlier and they made a mockery out of the band with Bush singing.

Now back to your regular scheduled program...

The Doors Metal? (mis-information link there) Not really (imo) but they had a very hard rock and very psychedelic rock streak in live performances that never transfered to their studio cuts, probably in part to censorship at the time. Morrison was very much out there (..very original psychedelic video here folks) and as Manzerek once put it "Jim was real!". But still amazes me to this day. For anyone interested, dig for their rare stuff. You will not be disappointed. (except possibly when he got too drunk and over did it).

Sorry to side track this away from metal but "I love the Doors!" now again, back to metal talk..

[livnxxxl]

Cannibal Corpse, Slayer, Death Angel and Rigor Mortis are among some of my favs...