Is Sabbath, Zeppelin & Alice METAL ?

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Bands like Iron Maiden were hugely influenced by Jethro Tull. I'm pretty sure they're one of Steve Harris' favorite bands, and you can definitely sense the influences there.

[ctc]

>The terms "heavy metal" and "hard rock" have often been used interchangeably,

I think part of the problem with descriptive terms like this (and why you shouldn't get hung up on it) is the perspective of the person USING them. For the uninitiated Zep, Priest and Cannibal Corpse are all metal: "they got them electric guitars and the singer is just screamong...." To an active fan they're not only different but belong to different genres altogether. (since "metal" consists of speed, death, black, prog, power....) Terms come about as needed.

>For Tull, I totally agree, cousins? Oh yes, defintley.

It was a weird conversation, but he pointed out all the themes that later metal draws from, and how Tull had done 'em years earlier. The dark, supernatural stuff (Kelpie, A Passion Play... which features a guy who gets kicked OUT of hell....) sympathy for the average working class person (Orion, A Stitch in Time) and a general rejection of what's handed to you. (Dark Ages, Fallen on Hard Times.)

Don C.

[Vortigern99]

Heavy metal music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the "Etymology" section of the above-linked wiki article:

Etymology

The origin of the term heavy metal in a musical context is uncertain. The phrase has been used for centuries in chemistry and metallurgy. An early use of the term in modern popular culture was by countercultural writer William S. Burroughs. His 1962 novel The Soft Machine includes a character known as "Uranian Willy, the Heavy Metal Kid." Burroughs's next novel, Nova Express (1964), develops the theme, using heavy metal as a metaphor for addictive drugs: "With their diseases and orgasm drugs and their sexless parasite life forms—Heavy Metal People of Uranus wrapped in cool blue mist of vaporized bank notes—And The Insect People of Minraud with metal music."[47]

Metal historian Ian Christe describes what the components of the term mean in "hippiespeak": "heavy" is roughly synonymous with "potent" or "profound," and "metal" designates a certain type of mood, grinding and weighted as with metal.[48] The word "heavy" in this sense was a basic element of beatnik and later countercultural slang, and references to "heavy music"—typically slower, more amplified variations of standard pop fare—were already common by the mid-1960s. Iron Butterfly's debut album, released in early 1968, was titled Heavy. The first recorded use of heavy metal is a reference to a motorcycle in the Steppenwolf song "Born to Be Wild," also released that year:[49] "I like smoke and lightning/Heavy metal thunder/Racin' with the wind/And the feelin' that I'm under." A late, and disputed, claim about the source of the term was made by "Chas" Chandler, former manager of the Jimi Hendrix Experience. In a 1995 interview on the PBS program Rock and Roll, he asserted that heavy metal "was a term originated in a New York Times article reviewing a Jimi Hendrix performance," in which the author likened the event to "listening to heavy metal falling from the sky." A source for Chandler's claim has never been found.

The first documented uses of the phrase to describe a type of rock music are from reviews by critic Mike Saunders. In the November 12, 1970, issue of Rolling Stone, he commented on an album put out the previous year by the British band Humble Pie: "Safe As Yesterday Is, their first American release, proved that Humble Pie could be boring in lots of different ways. Here they were a noisy, unmelodic, heavy metal-leaden ****-rock band with the loud and noisy parts beyond doubt. There were a couple of nice songs...and one monumental pile of refuse." He described the band's latest, self-titled release as "more of the same 27th-rate heavy metal crap."[50] In a review of Sir Lord Baltimore's Kingdom Come in the May 1971 Creem, Saunders wrote, "Sir Lord Baltimore seems to have down pat most all the best heavy metal tricks in the book."[51] Creem critic Lester Bangs is credited with popularizing the term via his early 1970s essays on bands such as Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath.[52] Through the decade, heavy metal was used by certain critics as a virtually automatic putdown. In 1979, lead New York Times popular music critic John Rockwell described what he called "heavy-metal rock" as "brutally aggressive music played mostly for minds clouded by drugs,"[53] and, in a different article, as "a crude exaggeration of rock basics that appeals to white teenagers."[54]

The terms "heavy metal" and "hard rock" have often been used interchangeably, particularly in discussing bands of the 1970s, a period when the terms were largely synonymous.[55] For example, the 1983 Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll includes this passage: "known for its aggressive blues-based hard-rock style, Aerosmith was the top American heavy-metal band of the mid-Seventies."[56] Few would now characterize Aerosmith's classic sound, with its clear links to traditional rock and roll, as "heavy metal." Even some acts closely identified with the emergence of the genre, such as Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, are not considered heavy metal bands by some in the present-day metal community.

[The Sentry]

>for the most part it all sounds the same to me.

That's probably 'cos by now you've got a huge repitoire of music stored in your head; and a lot of it ISN'T new to you. I get the same way with comic books.

>I could never understand that whole "Maiden vs. Priest" mentality that alot of fans took.

In general, people have this insane need to "back the winner." Which of course means there HAS to be a winner. Part of that is the idea that old is bad. Judas Priest ARE the Gods of Metal. Really. BUT when you listen to their stuff NOW it doesn't sound like most people's idea of Metal. It's closer to hard rock. But that's the result of growth and experimentation from others; like Maiden. Maiden fronted the "new wave" of Metal in the 80's (along with Metallica) and for a lot of fans, especially those who got into the music at that time THIS sound defines Metal. So everything before is invalid, 'cos the new groups are "the winner."

>I bet there are people out there who love them equally, but I have never met one!

Yes you have.....

>Alice Cooper is metal.

Yup. Same principle. He doesn't sound like what people consider Metal NOW; but his style of showmanship, presentation and preoccupation with the sinister set the tone for what came later. As I recall, Alice was the first group referred to as "Heavy Metal."

>I love Tull, but I agree they aren't "Metal"

I thought so too.... but I had a conversation with an oldschool metalhead and he pointed out that the SOUND is most definitely NOT metal, but a lot of their ideas and themes are. Illigitimate cousins of metal maybe?

Don C.

Well, you are prolly right about me hearing so much it all sounds the same. Good point, it's hard for me to enjoy most new comics now due to reading them so much from childhood to now.

Well, now I can say I have met someone who digs them both equally! Thanks for being the first!

As for Alice, anyone who has heard "Constrictor" and still rides on the fact he ain't metal, well then.........I really don't know what to say there!

For Tull, I totally agree, cousins? Oh yes, defintley. I mean listen to the powerchords on the Aqualung album. Tell me that ain't the building blocks of metal.

Great points, thanks man. Sorry for the long wait on the reply.

[livnxxxl]

Cannibal Corpse, Slayer, Death Angel and Rigor Mortis are among some of my favs...

[hobub]

I must have been up late when I posted that post awhile back. I get tired and my eyes must have been blurry.

Alice Cooper is metal. I am sure he didn't intend for himself to be "metal" when he started.
I found an old LP from 1973 titled, "Heavy Metal." It was a compilation record featurning artists like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin....and get this' T. Tex. The Doors, Buffalo Springfield, Jimmi Hendrix, J. Geils Band, ...etc. ***?

The Doors? Wow! The term "Heavy Metal" was around back then but what they called "Heavy Metal" is not considered heavy metal today.

Someone mentioned Anthrax earlier. My opinion, John Bush sucked as Anthrax's vocalist. He belongs in Armored Saint and apparently he got the idea and is going to stay there permanently and keep out of Anthrax for good!
If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.
Now Joey is out of the band and apparently they are shopping for a new singer again and hopefully they will change the name like they should of when Joey left earlier and they made a mockery out of the band with Bush singing.

Now back to your regular scheduled program...

The Doors Metal? (mis-information link there) Not really (imo) but they had a very hard rock and very psychedelic rock streak in live performances that never transfered to their studio cuts, probably in part to censorship at the time. Morrison was very much out there (..very original psychedelic video here folks) and as Manzerek once put it "Jim was real!". But still amazes me to this day. For anyone interested, dig for their rare stuff. You will not be disappointed. (except possibly when he got too drunk and over did it).

Sorry to side track this away from metal but "I love the Doors!" now again, back to metal talk..

[grayhank]

Deleted

[cjefferys]

Martin (Powell, keyboards) is a friend of mine, having known him since his My Dying Bride days. I still keep in touch with him now and then, he's been going to school again and just taking it easier for a while. He filled in a bit with Tiamat last year, but not sure what his next musical plans are. Adrian and Pybus are acquaintances of mine too, and Sarah's always been very nice when I've met her. My roommate has worked for them on and off over the past several years as well so I've been around the band plenty of times, though I'm not so acquainted with the new guys in the band.

That's awesome. Hell, I'd be happy just to actually see the band perform, but I always seem to miss them whenever they playing somewhere fairly close by. Have you met Dani too? I've always been curious about what he is actually like.

[ctc]

>for the most part it all sounds the same to me.

That's probably 'cos by now you've got a huge repitoire of music stored in your head; and a lot of it ISN'T new to you. I get the same way with comic books.

>I could never understand that whole "Maiden vs. Priest" mentality that alot of fans took.

In general, people have this insane need to "back the winner." Which of course means there HAS to be a winner. Part of that is the idea that old is bad. Judas Priest ARE the Gods of Metal. Really. BUT when you listen to their stuff NOW it doesn't sound like most people's idea of Metal. It's closer to hard rock. But that's the result of growth and experimentation from others; like Maiden. Maiden fronted the "new wave" of Metal in the 80's (along with Metallica) and for a lot of fans, especially those who got into the music at that time THIS sound defines Metal. So everything before is invalid, 'cos the new groups are "the winner."

>I bet there are people out there who love them equally, but I have never met one!

Yes you have.....

>Alice Cooper is metal.

Yup. Same principle. He doesn't sound like what people consider Metal NOW; but his style of showmanship, presentation and preoccupation with the sinister set the tone for what came later. As I recall, Alice was the first group referred to as "Heavy Metal."

>I love Tull, but I agree they aren't "Metal"

I thought so too.... but I had a conversation with an oldschool metalhead and he pointed out that the SOUND is most definitely NOT metal, but a lot of their ideas and themes are. Illigitimate cousins of metal maybe?

Don C.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

That's really cool, which CoF ex-members do you know? I've followed the band since their "Vempire" EP, so I'm familiar with most of the past members (it's too bad they change their line up so often, it seems like whenever a new album comes out, you can only depend on Dani being on it for sure ). At any rate, they've had their ups and downs, but they've been one of my favourite bands for about 12 years now.

Martin (Powell, keyboards) is a friend of mine, having known him since his My Dying Bride days. I still keep in touch with him now and then, he's been going to school again and just taking it easier for a while. He filled in a bit with Tiamat last year, but not sure what his next musical plans are. Adrian and Pybus are acquaintances of mine too, and Sarah's always been very nice when I've met her. My roommate has worked for them on and off over the past several years as well so I've been around the band plenty of times, though I'm not so acquainted with the new guys in the band.

[cjefferys]

If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.

I agree with you 100% on that one.

[cjefferys]

Ah didn't know we had some black metal fans around these parts I enjoy those bands as well. Some of the CoF guys are friends of mine (well I should say ex-CoF guys, as the current lineup has changed once again *sigh*)

That's really cool, which CoF ex-members do you know? I've followed the band since their "Vempire" EP, so I'm familiar with most of the past members (it's too bad they change their line up so often, it seems like whenever a new album comes out, you can only depend on Dani being on it for sure ). At any rate, they've had their ups and downs, but they've been one of my favourite bands for about 12 years now.

[Cosmicman]

I must have been up late when I posted that post awhile back. I get tired and my eyes must have been blurry.

Alice Cooper is metal. I am sure he didn't intend for himself to be "metal" when he started.
I found an old LP from 1973 titled, "Heavy Metal." It was a compilation record featurning artists like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin....and get this' T. Tex. The Doors, Buffalo Springfield, Jimmi Hendrix, J. Geils Band, ...etc. ***?

The Doors? Wow! The term "Heavy Metal" was around back then but what they called "Heavy Metal" is not considered heavy metal today.

Someone mentioned Anthrax earlier. My opinion, John Bush sucked as Anthrax's vocalist. He belongs in Armored Saint and apparently he got the idea and is going to stay there permanently and keep out of Anthrax for good!
If it isn't Joey Belladonna on vocals, it isn't Anthrax to me.
Now Joey is out of the band and apparently they are shopping for a new singer again and hopefully they will change the name like they should of when Joey left earlier and they made a mockery out of the band with Bush singing.

Now back to your regular scheduled program...

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Nice, I'm definitely a big fan of Clive as well, moreso than Nicko.

As for Trouble, yeah everyone is real curious about how that's gonna work out without Eric, but I'm a big fan of Kory and he's pretty diverse so I'm interested to see how it sounds.

Y'know getting back on topic a bit, a big part of the debate with those old bands being considered "metal" or not I think is also based on what you personally consider to be true metal. If your idea of metal is Iron Maiden and Slayer and those bands who fit in-between, then I can see you thinking that Zep or Cooper don't belong there. But I listen to so much different kinds of metal (because there's about 48723465 different sub-genres of metal these days!), it just doesn't seem a stretch at all to consider Zeppelin a metal band. Though I prefer to think of it as, "Zeppelin had their metal moments", which is more accurate to my mind.

[The Sentry]

I don't know, I mean when I was a teen and would tell people I was a Maiden fan, they would either reply, "Me too." or, "I'm a Priest fan". Never got that. Oh well but it still holds true! Number of the Beast is my favorite Maiden album. What a timeless classic. Martin "Marvin" Birch was a genius. His production with Maiden is where I stopped at, sure I have everything after his production run, but his work with the band was amazing. Clive was an incredible drummer. It's a terrible shame what he's had to go through. Thank God Maiden have come to his aid. Taking nothing away from Nic, Clive was the better drummer, I mean that fill in "Gangland"? Get outta here.........

But I do however like Scott Travis. Great drummer.