Is Sabbath, Zeppelin & Alice METAL ?

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting my two cents.

No man I totally hear ya, believe me

And you're right about the Alice thing.....it's one thing if people want to debate the 1960s and 1970s output, but from Constrictor on, I feel that he definitely fits into the Metal category.

This is all fun for debate and discussion really, as long as people ultimately realise that there is no "definitive" answer to something like this. As mentioned earlier, it's probably folly trying to categorize all this stuff anyhow, as so many artists are diverse enough that you cannot pigeonhole their entire output into just one specific category.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Check out these early head bangers. And I never even knew hippies could be head bangers.

no no no

child in time

Killer stuff. Don't forget the Purple. Check out the links. Some very early metal stuff there.

Well headbanging had to get its start somewhere! Basically "hippies" are the original headbangers. Ian Gillan was really an early master of that.

Love those DP clips. That clip of "No No No" is what got me into them when I saw it on late night television as a young kid. The "Fireball" album is my favorite, next to "Burn".

[Hulk]

I think Heavy Metal as its own genre of music died when the movie came out. Most everything since then has been a variation of the original (glam / punk / hair / whatever), even among most of the bands that defined it. Rush was certainly Heavy Metal until Permanent Waves came out. All of the bands listed could have been considered Heavy Metal back then, although today they'd be labeled Classic, Hard or Progressive Rock or something else. Now its just a label that has little meaning in context of modern music. I have to agree that Deep Purple and early Black Sabbath define Heavy Metal for me though.

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

When you discuss stuff like this you have to remember that yes; nothing happens overnight, and most labels are applied in retrospect. "Metal" covers a LOT of ground. Even today.

"Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" does an excellent job covering this debate; although he traces the origins back a LOT farther. Valdi, wasn't it? So Zep and KISS don't fit the current definition; but from them came the base that the new guys built on. Thankfully metal as a genre HASN'T stagnated. The difficulty cataloguing it is testament to this. And over the years each generation has drawn from some odd sources. Who'd have ever thought opera and power chords would go together? (Before groups like Nightwish and Manowar.)

Late 60's music had a lot of influence on metal. Musically; if not conceptually. (Although Arthur Brown's "Fire" may be an exception.) If you get the chance; listen to "The Story in Your Eyes" by the Moody Blues, but listen to the guitar. Those are proto-metal power chords.

>When did Motley Crue become Classic Rock?

When their albums passed 20 years old.

Don C.

[Brue]

>When did Motley Crue become Classic Rock?


never did - never will

[Mikey]

Not including Born To Be Wild, when was the first time the term "metal" or "heavy metal" was used to descibe this genre of music ?

I can't remember ever hearing either term used before 1980-ish

[4NDR01D]

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting my two cents.

?????

Where does this come from? I posted a follow up reply right after your post. Do you disagree with what I said? Alice Cooper's first album was NOT shock rock it was definitely blues based and heavy on the garage side of things, if your disagreeing with me I'd be happy to consider your point(s). I'm sorry but I just don't understand your follow up post at all.

[kingcarm]

Led Zeppelin are the grandfather's of Heavy Metal. In the 70's they were considered Heavy Metal. By today's standards their music doesn't sound like heavy metal but if it weren't for Led Zeppelin, there wouldn't be bands like Metallica and such.

[cjefferys]

And you're right about the Alice thing.....it's one thing if people want to debate the 1960s and 1970s output, but from Constrictor on, I feel that he definitely fits into the Metal category.

I think it's just really hard to put music into distinct catagories because music is constantly evolving and it is so subjective because different people have different tastes, views, etc. about various types of music. I personally would have a hard time considering, say, post Constrictor albums like "Trash" or "Hey Stoopid" as "metal" (it doesn't mean I don't like those two albums though, because I certainly do). It's different perspectives. Some people think Poison is metal, but I listen to bands like Cradle of Filth, Emperor, Old Man's Child, etc. so my definition of metal is a bit different by comparison.

[apes3978]

The only true metal band is Black Sabbath. Zeppelin could be metal, but wasn't too frequently. KISS is bad glam rock. Sorry, I don't like KISS.

Zepplin is "okay" at best, certainly better than KISS, I'll say that much for sure... I'm with you Goblin19, I don't like KISS either... They're a live action cartoon at best, and a bunch of guitar playing mimes at worst...

[hobub]

Well headbanging had to get its start somewhere! Basically "hippies" are the original headbangers. Ian Gillan was really an early master of that.

Love those DP clips. That clip of "No No No" is what got me into them when I saw it on late night television as a young kid. The "Fireball" album is my favorite, next to "Burn".

That's cool. I used to watch them myself on USA's Night Flight. Perhaps that's what you're referring. I was much younger then and a huge hard core metal fan. We saw Deep Purple in 84 during their Perfect Strangers tour at Pittsburgh's Civic Arena (Penguins). And they performed 'Child in Time'. Although I bought and liked the new album and was a fan of the Machine head album, that's pretty much all I really knew about DP except for wondering what became of their original singer (Evans - Hush) and if they were going to perform Hush. Ian Gillan was so gracious to the attendies for the surprised outcome, saying he was hoping this wasn't going to be another one of those lame reunion tours. His hair was shoulder length then. When he announced "Child in Time" he said it was from '69 and mentioned that although he thought several of us probably never heard it, he wanted to perform it because it was one of his personal favorites. The song pretty much blew me away. The lights dimmed and small spotlights began rotating slowly around from the stage area. When he started whaling they had lighting effects that made it seem as if We were spinning around. Very psychedic and very Heavy at the same time. The song instantly became a favorite of mine and I started getting early tapes of DP. I never knew they were so heavy in the early days. But as a fan of Sabbath and Zeppelin, I started comparing what each of those bands had out at that time period (69-71) and even though Zeppelin was hard and Sabbath had its satanic overtones. Deep Purple, although lacking the types of guitar licks associated with the Metal of that time (80s), it was what I associated in a pure heavy metal sound. And with Gillans whaling on vocals, he had the perfect heavy metal voice a decade prior. Everyone around me at that time associated Zeppelin with being the early influence of Metal. But I knew you should never over look Deep Purple as being major contributors.

Oh, I should add that my favorite bands when I was in my Metal Phase was Anthrax, Testiment, Savatage, Metallica and Megadeth. I never really cared for Poison, the Crew or Bon Jovi. I liked the Heavy Metal. Love the newer Christmas music Savatage members put out in recent years. Still want to see the Trans Syberian Orchestra live. Some metal has evolved quite well where you'd least expect it. Turn it up!

[The Sentry]

Okay, being a singer (or trying to be) for 17 years I think I know my way around this one. When I was a kid, Sabbath, Alice Cooper(yeah Cat I agree), AND Zep are metal, ("Immigrant Song" by most is considered to be the first "Heavy Metal" song ever. I tend to disagree after hearing Blue Cheer) but now none of that is Heavy Metal. All "Heavy Metal" is now is a buncha skinny pimple-faced kids screaming in a mic whilst wearing "Hot Topic" clothes and TRYING to be cool. I mean when I was a kid I got my butt kicked for wearing Iron Maiden shirts. Now you can get rock shirts at Wal-Mart.
I remember when my parents would say, "OMG I can't understand what they are saying?" Now, I REALLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE SAYING! So I guess that's what "Heavy Metal" has become. *sighs* Breaks the heart. I mean I can't stand most of the crap that's out there now. I mean I went backwards. CCR and Iron Maiden are my favorite bands if that tells you anything. Also, IMHO I always thought of Tina Turner being the TRUE queen of Heavy Metal! (Again remember "The Acid Queen?" If there is anything heavier and harder, I prolly wouldn't like it!)

So here's something for all of Megoville to sit and laugh at.
Brian Posehn's "Metal by Numbers" *Some explicit lyrics here* Enjoy! I know I did! I post this any time this discussion happens anywhere!
YouTube - Brian Posehn - Metal By Numbers

[ctc]

>All "Heavy Metal" is now is a buncha skinny pimple-faced kids screaming in a mic whilst wearing "Hot Topic" clothes and TRYING to be cool.

That's the stuff you see here; but if you check out stuff from Europe there's still a lot of good stuff being produced. (Japan too; but a lot of that is kinda metal/punk/screamo.) There's some good stuff here too; but you've got to go looking.

>Brian Posehn's "Metal by Numbers"

THAT is a classic! Didja notice that his garage band are all HUGE metal stars?

Don C.

[megowgsh]

imo they are all Metal except Robert Plant would probably tell you Zeppelin was a blues band.

[The Sentry]

>All "Heavy Metal" is now is a buncha skinny pimple-faced kids screaming in a mic whilst wearing "Hot Topic" clothes and TRYING to be cool.

That's the stuff you see here; but if you check out stuff from Europe there's still a lot of good stuff being produced. (Japan too; but a lot of that is kinda metal/punk/screamo.) There's some good stuff here too; but you've got to go looking.

>Brian Posehn's "Metal by Numbers"

THAT is a classic! Didja notice that his garage band are all HUGE metal stars?

Don C.

Yeah I hear that there's alot of good stuff out there, but lately the newest bands I totally love are "The Sword" and "Orange Goblin". Now THAT's some good stuff right there!

Oh yeah Scott Ian (What a great fellow! I've met him quite a few times! Not too particularly happy with the state of Anthrax these days, I think they should have kept John Bush as the frontman IMO.) and Joey Vera is who I caught in the vid too!