Who Killed Kennedy (JFK)? What say you?

[johnmiic]

I looked it up and there was an earlier film made in 1964 just on a trial itself:

[johnmiic]

This could be the Warren Commission docu. I saw. I thought it was Bill Curtis on A&E but could've been wrong:

[MegoCapnMike]

I have been studying this for over 25 years. I was the weird little 8 year old back around the 25th anniversary that asked his parents for JFK books rather than kids books. My point being is that I am more well read on this topic than anyone I know. I have gone back and forth as to Oswald's involvement over the years. While my own opinions and ideas on the matter are way too lengthy to get into here, I will just point out a few things.

1st: the "murder weapon" while a piece of crap, could in theory have been fired as quickly as needed for the shooting. HOWEVER, the main point that lone gunmen theorists never want to talk about is that to test the weapon, the authorities had to put shims in the mounting of the scope because the rifle was so misaligned when found that it would be impossible to hit anything. You can have the possibility of the magic bullet, but you can't have a shooter making the shot with the scope in this position.

2nd: Oswald's military and defection background follows exactly a government program for servicemen to be discharged and then defect to Russia. And then come back with little to no issues by the US government.

3rd: Oswald's finances. While in the marines over seas in Japan, Oswald frequented a club called the Queen Bee. A very expensive club that old generally run about $100 per night. Oswald made less than $85 a month. To get to Russia Oswald purchased an approximately $1500 ticket. Bank records indicate he had around $200 in his bank account at the time. While it is possible he could have saved his marine pay stashed away somewhere, given the fact that much of his pay was sent home to help support his mother, this seems unlikely. The fact is there are numerous instances where he shouldn't have been able to afford something, yet had he money to do it. His tax records are classified to this day. Why?

4th: witnesses dying off. Many witnesses who saw something incriminating, be it a shooter on the grassy knoll, or Ruby and Oswald in the company of other folks who were linked to the assassination during the Garison trial, wound up dead. The ones with the mst incriminating stories seemed to go first. Then any time a serious investigation begins into the assassination, there are another round of heart attacks, suicides and car crashes. Could some of these be legitimate deaths? Of course. But do you ever notice how anyone who says something in support of the lone gunmen theory never ends up dead like this?

5th: it is inconceivable for the Dallas doctors who were closest to the wounds on JFK to be completely 100% different in their recollection of the wounds compared to the Bethesda doctors.

These are just a few of the oddities involved in the case. Most of the time "national security" is quoted as the reason thy still have not released all documents on the case. But if it was just some lone nut, what exactly is there to endanger national security? Dude buys a rifle and ammo legally, then shoots someone. "Oh my God, we better keep this quiet for 80 years or the entire establishment could crumble!" People say it is more comforting to believe in conspiracy. Frankly I find it much more comforting that one crazed man could do this rather than thinking there are folks inside the government who got away with it and are still hiding it.

My feeling are that the bulk of the existing evidence today says lone gunman because that's what was left after the rest of the evidence was altered, ignored, or destroyed. The only thing linking Oswald to the assassination is that he supposedly ordered th rifle, a 6.5 manlicher carcano. There were at least two officers in the Dallas PD that went on record saying that when the rifle was found, they clearly saw stamped on the barrel, 7.65 Mauser. Not a carcano. One officer quickly hanged his story. The other after being blacklisted then fired from the PD (an officer voted man of the year in the PD prior to the assassination) eventually committed suicide with a rifle shot to the chest. Just FYI, that man owned two pistols (just find that oddity interesting myself so I mention it). So if these officers could read and write, which I imagine they could, that means the carcano rifle being found on the 6 th floor is at least now in question. Just like mst evidence in this case, so much falls on what is left as evidence or who do you believe.

Anyway, thats really just a few points I thought I'd mention. I don't want to get into a big forum argument here. Anyone wants to do some serious reading, I recommend Crossfire by Jim Marrs. He presents these kinds of oddities in the case as well as what I take to be balanced explanations for them. The book is nt a web of conjecture, it points out all recorded facts and or testimony that in many cases the enteral public doesn't have an inkling about.

[MegoCapnMike]

Does anyone recall that there was a TV movie that was sort of a What if Oswald got to trial? I t may have starred Lorne Greene. They basically went thru the motions to see what would've held up in court if Oswald were prosecuted.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076841/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_20

The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald (1977)

The bizarre story behind the man accused of assassinating John F. Kennedy and what might have happened had he been brought to trial.

Yes, two movies were made. One in 1964 which was sort of suppressed by the media although it ignores most evidence contrary to the lone gunman.

The other one with Lorne Greene was made in 1977 or 1978 I believe. It is the superior of the two. It is very balanced in its presentation. I believe it too is on YouTube. If not, VHS copies are available on amazon. Never had a DVD release on that one :-(

[piecemaker]

The main argument seems that the person with the most motive for a crime committed the crime - but I don't think that's always the case with crime. I'm not familiar enough with this case to get the whole context of the recording they play part of - and I don't get where it came from.

In any case, I'm not an expert at American history or law, being a foreigner - and I kinda feel like this is all creeping towards the political side of things - which I feel uncomfortable with discussing. So, I'll respectfully bow out.

Thanks for sharing though. I hope you don't take this as personal at all!

Nothing personal taken.

[LadyZod]

Anyone wants to do some serious reading, I recommend Crossfire by Jim Marrs.

You had me until you mentioned Jim Marrs.

I'm a BIG fan of conspiracy, and I read ALL the books.

Jim Marrs, William Cooper, David Icke, Alex Jones etc... They are all considered crackpots by legit historians, even though I do enjoy reading their theories. The problem with using one of these authors/lecturers as "source" for an argument, is that it will cause your argument to lose credibility even if everything else you said holds water... and I love debates.

For funtimes had by all, read William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse"

THAT is the big mamajama of all conspiracy theories! The man knows how to weave a tale that connects, JFK, Aliens, the Holy Grail, etc into one giant "Big Brother's out to mess with us" story.

Plus the man died in a hail of bullets fighting off the "government" at his compound. It kind of makes him win at conspiracy.

And while we're at it, I believe we DID go to the moon. I just believe there's a reason we haven't gone back.

[MegoCapnMike]

You had me until you mentioned Jim Marrs.

I'm a BIG fan of conspiracy, and I read ALL the books.

Jim Marrs, William Cooper, David Icke, Alex Jones etc... They are all considered crackpots by legit historians, even though I do enjoy reading their theories. The problem with using one of these authors/lecturers as "source" for an argument, is that it will cause your argument to lose credibility even if everything else you said holds water... and I love debates.

For funtimes had by all, read William Cooper's "Behold a Pale Horse"

THAT is the big mamajama of all conspiracy theories! The man knows how to weave a tale that connects, JFK, Aliens, the Holy Grail, etc into one giant "Big Brother's out to mess with us" story.

Plus the man died in a hail of bullets fighting off the "government" at his compound. It kind of makes him win at conspiracy.

And while we're at it, I believe we DID go to the moon. I just believe there's a reason we haven't gone back.

I understand completely about Jim Marrs. However, Crossfire was written about 25 years or so ago. I personally feel he has gotten a bit "out there" since then to say the least in recent years. But in Crossfire, he is much younger, has a cool head and cites all of his sources. The details are presented as they are. Some witnesses were under oath, some weren't when giving these statements/accounts. But as I recall reading it, the book is pretty straight forward. Only in the end of the book does he really offer an opinion that most other books are written with throughout (that is why I appreciate this book so much). Near the end he has a chapter called "A likely scenario". Only in this end portion does he lead the reader at all. But based not only on his book, but my years of research (reading many of the books out there, seeing countless documentaries and even going myself to Dealey Plaza specifically to see the crime scene), I personally agree with the bulk of his assumption at the end. But his ending is done in a way of "you just read these cited facts, here is what I think happened, but you decide for yourself". If you generally don't agree with his opinions these days, one could even skip that chapter as it no longer presents actual facts. Just conjecture based on the facts presented already.

The oddities I mentioned in the previous post come from years of research, not just one book. I am always very careful of who I get into this topic of conversation with as it is and believe me, I am not throwing anything our there that is not backed up in numerous accounts.

If interested, other books to check out would be (but by all means are only the tip of the ice berg and may not be perfect in all of their findings - but certainly more plausible then Posner's book - yuck!)

-"The Killing of a President" by Robert Groden (Author was a photo analyst for the House Select Committee Investigation)
-"The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald" by Robert Groden
(Both of the above are out of print and very tough to find at a reasonable price though. Both books offer a ton of photos as well as information. Also, the author does lead in many ways, but generally his facts are trustworthy)

-"Rush to Judgement" by Mark Lane (author was asked by Oswald's mother, Marguerite, to represent him to the Warren Commission and it should be noted he went into the case assuming Oswald was likely guilty as I recall- Being a lawyer, he writes much of this book in the form of straight up witness testimony- a lot of info in here that still is not known to the average person)
-"Plausible Denial" by Mark Lane
-"Best Evidence" by David Lifton (Author focuses primarily on the body itself and notes how it is possible that the wounds were altered - albeit very quickly and crudely before the autopsy - this is not as far out there as it may sound)
-"On the Trail of the Assassins"by Jim Garrison (New Orleans DA who investigated the case in the late 1960's. While history has painted a somewhat negative picture of this man, his story is worth reading before deciding an opinion on him - personally I think he was closer to the truth than most folks realize)
-"JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F Kennedy" by L. Fletcher Prouty (In the film JFK, Donald Sutherland's character was heavily based on the author himself and his unique insight into the assassination)

Obviously there are thousands of books out there. I just feel that these are the more credible ones. Say what you want about Jim Marrs. I'll likely even agree. But if you look at an old person today with possible dementia, it doesn't mean they were crazy 20-30 years ago. Not saying Marrs is crazy or has dementia (who knows?), just making a point.

[LadyZod]

If interested, other books to check out would be (but by all means are only the tip of the ice berg and may not be perfect in all of their findings - but certainly more plausible then Posner's book - yuck!)

-"The Killing of a President" by Robert Groden (Author was a photo analyst for the House Select Committee Investigation)
-"The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald" by Robert Groden
(Both of the above are out of print and very tough to find at a reasonable price though. Both books offer a ton of photos as well as information. Also, the author does lead in many ways, but generally his facts are trustworthy)

-"Rush to Judgement" by Mark Lane (author was asked by Oswald's mother, Marguerite, to represent him to the Warren Commission and it should be noted he went into the case assuming Oswald was likely guilty as I recall- Being a lawyer, he writes much of this book in the form of straight up witness testimony- a lot of info in here that still is not known to the average person)
-"Plausible Denial" by Mark Lane
-"Best Evidence" by David Lifton (Author focuses primarily on the body itself and notes how it is possible that the wounds were altered - albeit very quickly and crudely before the autopsy - this is not as far out there as it may sound)
-"On the Trail of the Assassins"by Jim Garrison (New Orleans DA who investigated the case in the late 1960's. While history has painted a somewhat negative picture of this man, his story is worth reading before deciding an opinion on him - personally I think he was closer to the truth than most folks realize)
-"JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F Kennedy" by L. Fletcher Prouty (In the film JFK, Donald Sutherland's character was heavily based on the author himself and his unique insight into the assassination)

Obviously there are thousands of books out there. I just feel that these are the more credible ones. Say what you want about Jim Marrs. I'll likely even agree. But if you look at an old person today with possible dementia, it doesn't mean they were crazy 20-30 years ago. Not saying Marrs is crazy or has dementia (who knows?), just making a point.

Thanks for the suggestions, but as I mentioned, I live with a walking JFK assassination savant... I already have all those books in my library.

I've read Crossfire, but what always comes to mind when Jim Marrs is mentioned in relation to the JFK assassination is his "demonstration" (and I use that word lightly) of the Carcano rifle's cocking mechanism and how it was "impossible" to get the shots off. No, Mr. Marrs, what you proved was that YOU don't know how to use a Carcano. Ya think that day in November was Oswald's first time to the rodeo? I'm sure he or any other assassin would be well versed in his weapon of choice.

There are many reports of Marina saying Lee would sit on the porch dry cocking the rifle, over and over again.

But regardless, I enjoy discussing the details of this mostly because I do hope to find something, anything to change my mind. I'm open to it. I just haven't heard anything to change it yet.

Here some of the JFK junk (and other misc books) from our library (we're big readers):

[MegoCapnMike]

Haha, we have many of the same books and movies. Not even just the JFK stuff either. Nice!

[johnmiic]

A friend of mine posted this on FB and I thought I'd share. This is the best, stabilized and clearest representation I've ever seen.

[MegoCapnMike]

Definitely the best stabilized version I have ever seen as well.

[LadyZod]

HAHA... those pictures are just what I call Jim's JFK corner... the UFO, Bigfoot stuff just started to bleed into it as we ran out of room in those areas.

I have a couple of book shelves dedicated to the Holy grail & spear of destiny, the NWO and Atlantis (those are my expertise.)

Jim's the JFK, UFO, weird creatures, moon hoax guy.

We're both James Randi fans. We do play Mulder and Scully on certain topics. Some crap I just can't believe he believes in, and some crap I believe in, gets his eye roll.

We both believe in the lone gunman theory... I'm not absolute on Oswald, but he is. I willingly admit to having doubts that HE was 100% the shooter. I am at 90%. Jim's at 100%.

What I am 100% absolute on, is that one lone nutjob went batcrap crazy and shot the president for the same reason most batcrap crazy people do... attention. He wasn't a unique snowflake everyone praised. He was average and ignored.

Oswald fits. So until someone else is found that fits that description, who was up in that building at noon on 11/22 who owned a carcano, well, you see where I'm going.

[Cosmicman]

The biggest cover up in American history. Our Government knows what happened and I am pretty sure our Vice President knew exactly what he was doing when he took office. Johnson kept a nice little extensive war going with American troops all over. It's hard to believe but I think our C.I.A. got a little paranoid and didn't like where Kennedy and all this Communist/hoopla was at and thus you have what was supposed to be a simple assassination that became a big mess. Oswald was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Jack "Ruby" Rubenstein was the guy who had a lot to lose and was up to his neck with his involvement and he whacked off Oswald to shut him up. Thus, everything is silenced, case closed. Jack Ruby didn't expect to spend the rest of his life in prison but it was safer if he opened his yap. Ruby was treated like a hero in Prison and lived the good life there until his death four years later of pulmonary embolism due to lung cancer. Conspiracy there? Who knows. Have Ruby have lived he may have been walking sooner and back to his Night Club but I am sure he would have been looking over his shoulders the rest of his life.
Jack Ruby was good at one thing. Keeping his mouth shut and saying what he was told and he took that to his grave.

Ruby's shooting of Oswald was not a spontaneous act, in that it involved at least some premeditation. Similarly, the committee believed it was less likely that Ruby entered the police basement without assistance, even though the assistance may have been provided with no knowledge of Ruby's intentions. The committee was troubled by the apparently unlocked doors along the stairway route and the removal of security guards from the area of the garage nearest the stairway shortly before the shooting. There is also evidence that the Dallas Police Department withheld relevant information from the Warren Commission concerning Ruby's entry to the scene of the Oswald transfer.

You want my honest opinion? I think the Hydra was behind it and the Red Skull took those shots Damn Nazi.

[J.B.]

Just wondering what the group thought of Jackie instinctively turning around immediately after the kill shot and reaching over to pick up a part of her husband's brain. It was like she already knew what was back there before ever turning to see.

http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.html

[piecemaker]

As i already said before,i believe there were multiple shooters in different locations that day.The shot that killed him was fired from behind and after watching Robert Harris's video The Attack in Dealy Plaza,im convinced there was another shot that came from the right a fraction of a second after the shot from behind.

She never looked back before going on the trunk for a piece of Kennedy's brain,but knew it was there.How?,because she was looking at her husband and saw the back of his head explode in that direction.

Heres the full video and like he says at the beginning,he looks at some things from a different perspective,that you may not have heard before.