Avengers 2 reviews starting to trickle in...

[Godzilla]

Den of geek has an interesting review as well.

None of the reviews I have read have said it was a bad movie. Everyone seems entertained by it and I think we can all expect a good time. Expectations are high after the 1st Avengers film, the 2nd Cap, and Guardians of the Galaxy (all for separate reasons) and I think some viewers/ critics feel a little let down by some parts of it. I don't think that's a bad thing and making these films quality with ensure the superhero cycle continues for a while. Even if it's good but not maybe as good as the first one, as the 2 reviews I've posted seem to suggest, then I'm ok with that.

http://www.denofgeek.us/movies/aveng...-ultron-review

[MIB41]

She refers to story and plot, which are different. Storyline is who/what/when/where/why. How is plot. Plot moves the story forward. This is why superhero movies are a heavy trend; the 4W's are easy to explain to the audience. The trick is the How, and most of the time it's a clunker. That's why studios love origin movies; they can follow the How model for previous origin films and hopefully dress it so the pattern isn't blatant.

So she's saying the story is rote, which is normal for sequels, and they made the Ultron plot convoluted so the audience won't predict the outcome in the second act. So the acting, action and pace are rock solid, which makes it all work.

That is whole point about who is a critic and who is not. If the critic cannot breakdown the elements at work, then it has no value. And there is an educational standard, it's just been totally devalued by fansites who are motivated by connections and eyeballs. This has been a raging debate within the industry for fifteen years now.

I'm not the one who insinuated a secondary motivation to the review. You implied she did it to down vote AoU, as if this is a cheerleading contest.

I'm sorry but you can't have a good story without a good plot. They co-exist in function even if their literary definitions can display varying qualities. In the synopsis she tells the story, but then goes on to refer to it as lacking coherency...? If you can't understand the story then a synopsis would be difficult because the functions within the story involving plot would fail. In addition she adds that she likes aspects of the plot involving character motivation, but because the Ultron initiative loses her, it's best to just enjoy it as a special effects film? Once again a contradiction. In my college writing classes, she would have been flagged for not supporting her conclusions with clear examples of why the movie did not meet the fundamental building blocks of story telling which she seems to believe are lacking. And your translation does not support her conclusions either.

She says she could not follow the motivations of Ultron, while you're suggesting (without knowing) that it's a story telling mechanism to hide the plotting for the second act...? So by your estimation, before seeing this film, you're assuming this 'predictable sequel' is actually quite simplistic in it's plot structure and that she should have understood the mechanics of the plotting with Ultron. So, by you're definition, she can not breakdown the supremely basic elements at work even though she has seen the film and you have not... You make her out to be a bigger idiot than I do.

[hedrap]

I'm sorry but you can't have a good story without a good plot. They co-exist in function even if their literary definitions can display varying qualities. In the synopsis she tells the story, but then goes on to refer to it as lacking coherency...? If you can't understand the story then a synopsis would be difficult because the functions within the story involving plot would fail. In addition she adds that she likes aspects of the plot involving character motivation, but because the Ultron initiative loses her, it's best to just enjoy it as a special effects film? Once again a contradiction. In my college writing classes, she would have been flagged for not supporting her conclusions with clear examples of why the movie did not meet the fundamental building blocks of story telling which she seems to believe are lacking. And your translation does not support her conclusions either.

She says she could not follow the motivations of Ultron, while you're suggesting (without knowing) that it's a story telling mechanism to hide the plotting for the second act...? So by your estimation, before seeing this film, you're assuming this 'predictable sequel' is actually quite simplistic in it's plot structure and that she should have understood the mechanics of the plotting with Ultron. So, by you're definition, she can not breakdown the supremely basic elements at work even though she has seen the film and you have not... You make her out to be a bigger idiot than I do.

Where are you getting any of that, from this?

... It’s full throttle all the way and there is little time to become involved in anything much beyond the visual spectacle...

...While the visuals are extraordinary and the wry humour is welcome, what’s missing is a coherent story with light and shade. The plot involving Ultron, the high-tech robot with aspirations to destroy the world and make the Avengers extinct is far too complicated – as a consequence, the film is best enjoyed on a visual level.

She says the overall story is incoherent and Ultron's plot is convoluted, but the other pieces - visuals, dialogue, acting - make it watchable on the surface.

Marvel makes the villain's plot to do XYZ in whatever movie convoluted, because we all know the heroes are going to win and no major characters are going to die.

"Avengers must stop Ultron's from destroying the world" is a logline. Where are you finding a synopsis? She doesn't even reference new team members.

And I am assuming it's quite predictable because I'm not ten years old. I know the boundaries of summer blockbusters, especially from Disney, must play within.

I linked to the Joss Whedon interview for a reason. He doesn't give a spoiler, but the guy admits his greatest anxiety is exactly what I've been debating since Winter Soldier was shooting. They're not making movies of consequence because the next film in development is more important than the current production so it retcons everything and dilutes the ramifications.

[huedell]

Avengers 2 is indeed bulletproof.....a zillion poor reviews wouldn't dent the box office. The money is gonna be there, whether it's panned or not.

Do you guys work for Marvel or something? Unless you're directly profitting from the flick, who cares if it's bulletproof?

[huedell]

I'm sorry but you can't have a good story without a good plot. They co-exist in function even if their literary definitions can display varying qualities.

If that was the case, the two definitions wouldn't be necessary.

Still the definitions are up to interpretation---to be sure.

I see 'Story" being defined as a vague summation of the events of the movie and "Plot" defined as being the separate story points and how they achieve in separate parts, as well as how those plot points interweave for the overall story---i.e. the "story plot".

If your definition of "good" in the context of "story" is something other than "simple/cliché/traditional"---you know, something with more nuance, then I suppose that in theory, you could have a good plot without having a good story because if all those smaller plot parts are successful separately and together as the overall plot, it stands to reason the story is solid but solid doesn't always "do it" for people....that same story may be too cliché to say it's that good...ya know?

Also, you could have a good story without a good plot. In other words, the otherwise quality interesting story is weakened by the plot machinations that make the story hard to follow.

I thought the first Avengers movie was not TOO lacking in good (i.e. interesting) plot points....I wasn't too pleased with the simplistic ending "solution" for the heroes----however, the plot points interweaved pretty darn well---it was a serviceable plot--- and so the plot was pretty solid, if not uniquely interesting. But the story just didn't do it for me.

I hear Avengers 2 is different than the first Avengers movie---the "Empire Strikes Back" of the Avengers series, so to speak---in other words, it takes the basic idea of the first movie and takes it to a deeper level overall---more depth of characters, and a more riveting plot.

At least that's what a trusted Internet source I'm acquainted with said after he saw the full actual movie yesterday. Hope he's right.

[hedrap]

I agree with that, Hue. I used to believe AoU was going to be a lot more than the first, but even some of the serious fanboy outlets are saying otherwise. They're still positive reviews, but no one is implying a "Luke I'm Your father, sorry about the hand" moment. Again, the Whedon Buzzfeed interview alludes to maybe the whys and wherefores of that, without spoilers.

[MIB41]

Where are you finding a synopsis? She doesn't even reference new team members..

She has this at the top of her review.

SYNOPSIS: When Tony Stark (Robert Downey Jr) tries to jumpstart a dormant peacekeeping program, things go awry and the Avengers - Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, The Incredible Hulk, Black Widow and Hawkeye - are put to the ultimate test as the fate of the planet hangs in the balance. As the mysterious Ultron (voice of James Spader) emerges, the team must reassemble in order to stop the terrifying technological villain hell-bent on human extinction. Along the way, they confront two mysterious and powerful newcomers, Wanda Maximoff and Pietro Maximoff, as well as an old friend in a new form, named The Vision.

At the end of the day it comes down to this... I don't feel any more informed about the film after reading her review than before I did. As a literary piece it's a complete mess. She starts out by summing up her thoughts in the first two sentences, which really makes the rest of the review redundant. And when she tries to compare this film with it's predecessor she makes this bizarre leap in logic by comparing special effects as the new tool of reasoning over the character motivation she found in the first outing. What?!!! It's just a sloppy piece. And whether it was about the "Avengers 2" or "A Walk through the Woods", makes no difference for me. No one is cheerleading anything. If the kids had brought this home for me to review, I would have made them rewrite the whole thing. There's no introduction, very little middle, and absolutely no end to sum up her thoughts. It reads more like scant thoughts she jotted down after she left the theater, but certainly nothing worthy of print.

But let me just finalize my thoughts about the film in general, because I think we've given this review more attention than it deserves. I'll be going to see this movie over the weekend. My only expectation is for it to expand the Marvel universe and set up the registration act storyline for other upcoming Marvel films. I hope the rest of the movie is a nice helping of the visual experience that bringing together a collection of colorful heroes surely invokes. In my eyes, Avengers 2 has different responsibilities from the first film, which is something a very exhausted and somewhat frustrated Joss Whedon eluded to in recent interviews. I would even go as far as to wonder if the final film we get is what he intended, before Iron Man III came out. I got the sense he felt burdened by the direction that film took and once he showed that frustration, it never seem to leave him. So we may not know for some time whether all of his original plot points held up or if he was forced to make big changes to bridge the logic with that story. Either way, I'm hoping to have a good time and enjoy the experience. I also liked the Vision as a kid, so seeing him enter the picture is icing on that visual cake. But whether it falters or flies high, I'll be here to call it as I see it.

[huedell]

As a literary piece it's a complete mess. She starts out by summing up her thoughts in the first two sentences, which really makes the rest of the review redundant.

No, it makes it "the body and the conclusion of an essay format"---which is really the format any reviewer should use, as well as the format your children should use if they are writing essays for school.

In an essay, you sum up your thoughts in the first part (The intro), this intro sets the theme/topic for the "body" of your essay which is supposed to be reasoning to support your summation made in the intro, exploring aspects of the piece you're discussing.

The essay/review is then finished off with a "conclusion" that restates your intro, but with an added spin that synthesizes your intro thought with the musings you made in the body of the essay.

Writing 101^^^

[Bruce Banner]

Saw it today. It's damn good. Amazing action sequences, great interaction between the characters, solid acting, and a fairly compelling story.
But I still prefer the first Avengers movie overall.

After credits sequence is short but awesome.

[huedell]

huedell...I'm just curious. Do you like ANY Superhero or Science fiction movies?? It just seems like you hate everything that everybody else loves. God, I'd hate to be as cynical as you.

You are offending me. I hate that I constantly have to defend myself in every superhero review thread that comes up because DC/Marvel cheerleaders get their panties in a bunch. Take these issues one at a time---this thread is about AVENGERS 2---not your lies about my past movie critiques overall.

Don't worry about being as cynical as me...

Why?

Because if you even cared to READ my defenses (that I shouldn't have to write everytime these threads come up in the first place), you'd see how wrong and inaccurate you are.

You'd see what you're doing is nothing less than slandering me (call it libel). Please ---if you're going to criticize me. Get it right.

^^^^^

And marvelmania, and anyone else who wants to do nothing less than "bandwagon jump"----pick on someone who deserves it, instead of me, someone trying to talk some reason (albeit maybe spoken in a way that could stand to be more polite) to those who just fawn over seeing their childhoods come to life on the big screen without any room for examination--- or lord forbid---criticism.

I apologize if I offend some times---but, geez, don't misrepresent me---it's outrageous.

EDITED TO ADD THIS POST I MADE HERE FROM FEB. 2012:

I finally saw CAPTAIN AMERICA... and was soooo happy with it.

I couldn't get into GREEN LANTEREN... but that doesn't mean I won't try again.

Haven't sampled THOR yet.

I really should see THOR because I wanna see AVENGERS in the theatre
and should check out THOR to help set that prep me fully.

Frankly, I don't think I'll like any Marvel movie better than CAP AMERICA
and the Tobey Spidey movies.

Is that good enough to get you liars to stop insulting me publically, or do I need find more definitive proof/examples of your abuse?

[MIB41]

No, it makes it "the body and the conclusion of an essay format"---which is really the format any reviewer should use, as well as the format your children should use if they are writing essays for school.

In an essay, you sum up your thoughts in the first part (The intro), this intro sets the theme/topic for the "body" of your essay which is supposed to be reasoning to support your summation made in the intro, exploring aspects of the piece you're discussing.

The essay/review is then finished off with a "conclusion" that restates your intro, but with an added spin that synthesizes your intro thought with the musings you made in the body of the essay.

Writing 101^^^

During my first day of writing class in college the professor walks in; doesn't introduce himself to anyone; sits at his desk and open his brief case. Without a word he stands up, reaches in, and pulls out an egg and throws it against the wall and says, " Write about it." Everyone looks around at each other while I write, "Life is seldom what it's cracked up to be."

[huedell]

During my first day of writing class in college the professor walks in; doesn't introduce himself to anyone; sits at his desk and open his brief case. Without a word he stands up, reaches in, and pulls out an egg and throws it against the wall and says, " Write about it." Everyone looks around at each other while I write, "Life is seldom what it's cracked up to be."

Hmmm... not sure what you're saying but my initial thought is that it seems your professor was quite needed with that particular group of students.

The whole class stares at each other, except for one guy who writes down something that's less "a take on the assignment", and more "a slightly-related cliché maxim".

[The Bat]

You are offending me. I hate that I constantly have to defend myself in every superhero review thread that comes up because DC/Marvel cheerleaders get their panties in a bunch. Take these issues one at a time---this thread is about AVENGERS 2---not your lies about my past movie critiques overall.

Honestly hue...I really meant no offence. I like you. I'm not trying to slander you in anyway, I'm just confused sometimes at the Superheroes movies you like and don't like. I guess it's just a matter of tastes and we'll just have to agree...to disagree. Just for fun...could you name a few Superheroes movies you do like...My memory fades...

P.S. When have I lied about your past movie critiques????????

[enyawd72]

^It's okay.

The actual Avengers can't get along either.

[RickD]

Curious why so many members put so much into what critics say about films? especially Marvel movies, since they are so much more fun then the DC movies! The Avengers will be a fun movie to watch, filled with lots of action, great scenes, and lots of new Marvel characters. Not to mention, our kiddos will absolutely love it.

As the movie goer and the one that pays the money to see the film, you are the most credible movie critic ever.