Avengers 2 reviews starting to trickle in...

[huedell]

Honestly hue...I really meant no offence. I like you. I'm not trying to slander you in anyway, I'm just confused sometimes at the Superheroes movies you like and don't like. I guess it's just a matter of tastes and we'll just have to agree...to disagree. Just for fun...could you name a few Superheroes movies you do like...My memory fades...

P.S. When have I lied about your past movie critiques????????

You're sincerely a cool guy for a shot at soothing the sting of your way off-base post in this thread that instigated my claim of your spreading the latest of many falsehoods.

But how can I take what you say as a way to mend fences when you don't acknowledge that I posted FOUR superhero movies I like in the VERY post you just quoted me from. I also indicated in that same post that those four movies were claimed as movies I liked by quoting myself (un-edited) from a Museum post I made over two years ago. All of this which, IMHO, constitutes the "lie" about my past movie critiques of which you just asked me to cite. On that note, I guess you could conceivably add THAT to the list of lies.... altho' that may be stretching it a bit?

You could also surmise that because of this blatant disregard for reading my posts, and then misrepresenting me, that you are taunting me....riling me up for no good reason. Altho' I'd like to believe that's not what's going on.

Oh, one more thing...a bonus "huedell superhero movie that he likes" movie is referenced in the sig portion of my posts...the quote is from "Superman Vs. The Elite", what I believe to be the best DC superhero movie ever made. It's animated though...if that matters.... frankly, I really, really like about 70 percent or so of ALL the DC Animated movies ever put out.... so, if animated movies qualify, you can add another ten or so movies to the aforementioned list.

[huedell]

^It's okay.

The actual Avengers can't get along either.

Ah ---"conflict"----the element that exists in any good story's superhero team----OR within any good superhero movie discussion.

I'm sure Stan Lee would agree

Curious why so many members put so much into what critics say about films? especially Marvel movies, since they are so much more fun then the DC movies! The Avengers will be a fun movie to watch, filled with lots of action, great scenes, and lots of new Marvel characters. Not to mention, our kiddos will absolutely love it.

As the movie goer and the one that pays the money to see the film, you are the most credible movie critic ever.

Agreed. Always.

But what if you're on the fence about going to see the movie? Then ANYthing can come into play at that point to prompt you to avoid the movie or to rush to see it.

[The Bat]

Hue...I was not taunting or mocking you what so ever. But it doesn't appear that you believe me and I'm not going spend two pages trying to convince you other wise. So peace out brother...I mean that.

[huedell]

Hue...I was not taunting or mocking you what so ever. But it doesn't appear that you believe me and I'm not going spend two pages trying to convince you other wise. So peace out brother...I mean that.

That's cool---but, for the record, in the very post you quoted, I said I liked the first Captain America movie as well as the Tobey Spidey movies.

I feel like an idiot for even prolonging this personal debate just one post further, but I couldn't help myself---I mean, the info you were asking for was right there in that post you quoted, and the same info has been repeatedly posted, scattered through posts of mine throughout the years which seem to be forgotten by all who would say "I have no superhero movies I like" and be completely wrong saying that.

I'm trying to be understanding though, so I'll throw y'all a bone and concede that I've said some things that without proper perspective might misrepresent me. Like, I've given wonderful compliments about certain superhero movies that, ultimately, I never thought were that good to begin with---but thought they were underrated by the general public, or by hardcore comicbookfans. I've also criticized some superhero movies that I thought were of higher caliber than most, just because I thought those particular movies were overrated, or merely containing some debatable elements.

Ultimately, IMHO, the majority of superhero movies fall short, if only because they are SO "designed by committee"----at least that's my take, and it's probably why most of my favorite superhero movies are the animated ones----less "cooks in the kitchen", so to speak.

So, yeah, there are superhero movies that I like---but, if you're saying that I'm "down on superhero movies overall" that, while being negative in connotation, is still something I couldn't call a "lie". I can live with that easy.

And even though I love superheroes, it doesn't bother me too much that this aspect of the genre exists for me when so many animated projects score so high, not just the animated DC movies---but the YEARS of work in the Timmverse animated TV material, among other things not worth listing right now.

And---when all else fails?

There's a LOT of NON-superhero movies that I think are PERFECT as far as movies are concerned. And they are 99 percent ALL live-action.

Cheers, Bat!

[The Bat]

IMHO, the majority of superhero movies fall short, if only because they are SO "designed by committee"----at least that's my take,

Cheers, Bat!

I guess that's the quote I ultimately keyed on Hue. I guess I'm just really surprised sometimes at some of the Superheroes movies that I love and you hate. But you did say that you loved the first Captain America movie and that is something we can definitely agree on. I think it's one of the BEST Superhero movies ever made.

[Random Axe]

I just want to geek the F out when I see Vision and Black Panther. I don't give a flaming blue crap about a critics opinion, especially this genre. This was made for us, not them. Yall can continue bickering while I go save a place in line.

[huedell]

I guess that's the quote I ultimately keyed on Hue. I guess I'm just really surprised sometimes at some of the Superheroes movies that I love and you hate. But you did say that you loved the first Captain America movie and that is something we can definitely agree on. I think it's one of the BEST Superhero movies ever made.

There's that---and, I think something else of note is that every time I watch the 2nd (Joker/Two Face) installment of the Nolan trilogy, I change my mind more and more about that particular Bat-Nolan movie.... mainly because I see the connection between the Joker and Two Face stories more clearly as time goes on---so THAT'S something to celebrate.

As far as Avengers? I WANT to like it---the first AND the second (The first was "meh" IMHO, and the second I haven't seen yet). But, as you can probably surmise from my recent posts, the odds are against it for me, if only because of the exponentially far-reaching corporate interests in such an amalgam of a movie project.

Heck, after reading that article, you'd think even Wheadon himself would be sympathetic of where I'm coming from----while, all the while counting the money from his bullet-proof venture

[hedrap]

Curious why so many members put so much into what critics say about films? especially Marvel movies, since they are so much more fun then the DC movies! The Avengers will be a fun movie to watch, filled with lots of action, great scenes, and lots of new Marvel characters. Not to mention, our kiddos will absolutely love it.

As the movie goer and the one that pays the money to see the film, you are the most credible movie critic ever.

I think you're totally right. But - and this is notdirected at anyone here - the constant need for geek culture to be validated as something more, has infected Marvel film fans and developed into a massive complex about the lack of depth to Marvel projects. The excuse used to be "it's all leading to something, just wait", but now we're on the other side and there's no there, there.

For me, the tipping point was Winter Soldier. When I started reading " it's Marvel's TDK", or the constant espionage references, I snapped. I mean, the directors were saying it deserved an Oscar nomination for best screenplay, yet GI Joe 2 was the exact same script.

It's the new Raiders or Back to the Future, which is what Fiege was after. Avengers will resonate because it's something no one thought would get made.

[huedell]

hedrap---I think I'd get burned at the proverbial stake if I quoted and commented on ALL the stuff you said that I agree with.

However this...

Avengers will resonate because it's something no one thought would get made.

...is something that prompts me to say that not only do I agree, but I also wanna reiterate something I said months ago---and add something to it. Something quite long-winded, but something that I've been mulling over by my lonesome for too long not to bring you guys into it. Ha-ha

That is:

The success of the Avengers is why we are looking at WB/DC offering up a lopsided amalgam of "a super-team in formation" bunch of ideas (with Batman as the leading character featured "hook" and Super Friendsy teensy-weensy-cameos by WW and Aquaman) served up as a sequel to a mediocre solo Superman movie called BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN: DAWN OF JUSTICE. DOJ being a movie that, in an "Avengers-less" world should've been a solo Superman movie that would've hopefully been an improvement on the first MOS flick. But, of course, we'll never know.

My take, is that if DC was so intent on catching up to Marvel/The Avengers, why not play to their strengths and develop two killer lines of offense instead of what their film release schedule appears to be currently?

How about a 2016-2017 range release of three movies: 1) a solo Superman sequel to MOS with a villain like Parasite and a tag ending tying into a future JL movie with Supes involved, 2) a Batman reboot starring Affleck or whoever featuring a villain like Man-Bat---no origin story, and a tag ending tying into a future JL movie with Bats involved. and 3) a JL movie akin to that Waid story I always rave about starring Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, Black Canary and Martian Manhunter up against Flash's biggest baddies, like Grodd, Captain Cold, Reverse Flash, the Trickster and Weather Wizard.

Followed by a 2018-2019 range release of three more movies 1) A Wonder Woman origin story featuring Cheetah as the villain w/the obligatory end credits tie-in to the JL 2) A SHAZAM! movie featuring Sivana as the villain with JL tie-in and 3) a second JL movie with Supes, Bats, WW and Shazam joining the 5 from the first JL movie to go up against Cheetah & Sivana, plus newcomers: Brainiac, Luthor, Joker and The Penguin with foreshadowing of a THIRD JLA movie that would feature Darkseid and any number of his Apokolips disciples.

That 1-2 punch of six KILLER movie plans (with a THIRD wave leading up to a Darkseid JL movie), IMHO, would make MUCH better use of their DCU character stable, and once 2020 had to be addressed they'd likely be on such a high that they too would be able to get some mileage out of their "Ant-Man" level properties (The Atom, Green Arrow, Plastic Man, Hawkman---characters who some would argue are even more popular than Ant-Man). Plus---you'd have Superman and Batman solo franchises that weren't born from "Avengers fear" to mine a few more standalones out of, instead of what I see as crippling DC's equivalent to "Spider-Man" or "X-Men" level franchise properties.

Instead of this more measured approach, WB/DC are SO freaked by the success of The Avengers that (again, I'm only theorizing IMHO) they are jumping the gun in a way that is limiting their chances for maximizing their resources, virtually guaranteeing that when the smoke clears, Marvel will be the most successful.

Just a theory

[The Bat]

Hue...I am surprised that you don't like The Avengers. but let's not get into that. You like Captain America: The First Avenger...do you like The Winter Soldier as well? I can honestly say that I've watched both CAP movies more than I've watched "Batman Begins", or "The Dark Knight." And as a Batman fanatic that really says something! I feeling like I'm cheating on Batmanbut I can't stop watching those movies.

[huedell]

Hue...I am surprised that you don't like The Avengers. but let's not get into that. You like Captain America: The First Avenger...do you like The Winter Soldier as well? I can honestly say that I've watched both CAP movies more than I've watched "Batman Begins", or "The Dark Knight." And as a Batman fanatic that really says something! I feeling like I'm cheating on Batmanbut I can't stop watching those movies.

As far as the first Avengers movie, you could never please me with that IMHO because I think Marvel did the best they could to maximize the impact of what was essentially (as hedrap alluded to) a "gimmick" movie in that it's greatest strength was: that it existed! They deserved it IMHO----they were reaping the benefits of a HUGE investment they made by tying in four different franchises together with an "origin" story for the team---or "a starting off point" if you will for a pioneering franchise.

What does that mean in the context of Avengers 2? I think that A2 has a larger than normal responsibility to trump itself as far as it "feeling fresh and original"---merely being the first of it's kind/existing won't cut it anymore----that was the "pass" I gave the first Avengers movie. Yeah, I thought it was "meh", but I'd be a complete Marvel Debbie-Downer to say I don't enjoy putting it on now and again and enjoying it for what it is. Best part of the movie? The: "I'm always angry" moment. Loved it because for me it worked on multiple levels, most notably that it was a surprise twist---yet, one that made complete sense---plus, I just love the Hulk.

CAPTAIN AMERICA: The First Avenger movie was just a beautiful modern display of the wholesome "what America wants to be" as opposed to "what America gets criticized as" concept. The goody-goody archetype is my favorite for good guys---I'm not much for the anti-hero in the DC/Marvel sense anyway. OUTSIDE of DC/Marvel? I love the anti-hero. I'm a huge Tarantino fan---that says it all right there.

The team that assembled TFA were straightforward, and it suited them very much. The movie was a bit dry, but it had so much "wholesome heart" to run on that it made up for it AFAIWC.

I'm going to get blasted for this, but I thought TWS was a complete letdown. Two main reasons... BOTH regarding the use of The Falcon character. First: DON'T use Falcon in a Cap story that doesn't acknowledge his race AT all. I'm all for not bringing up race as a statement within itself---the very stance that "I Spy" took back in 1965 when it debuted. But, not acknowledging that Falcon is African-American in a Cap America movie does a disservice to the character who was mainstream comics' first African-American superhero and that was so obviously a commentary on race-relations---an inner city dude teamed up with a man called Captain America, who happened to be the whitest Caucasian in comics

Secondly, the movie was called "The Winter Soldier" and was an adaptation of that WS storyline in the comics that featured the unexpected return of Cap's decades old wartime sidekick with an ironic twist. In TWS movie, here was a great opportunity to work in a "sidekick past/present rivalry" subplot between Falcon and TWS, yet the only time TWS and Falcon shared the screen, there wasn't even a hint of their unique "Cap sidekick of past and present" relationship seen. The best compliment I can give it was "Hey---neat to see Black Widow, Falcon and Cap up against one crazy strong dude in a neat action sequence".

I can only surmise that they brought in the Falcon character mainly because they're trying to sell more action figures, attempting to make the CMU more racially diverse, and because he's known as Cap's sidekick, it was an easy choice. My opinion is that if they weren't gonna utilize Falcon the way I mentioned above, they shoulda left Falcon out for the time being and fleshed-out the Hawkeye character who we've already seen, and who seems to get along well with the Black Widow character (who is in TWS already) and, who frankly, out of all the Avengers we've seen in this universe so far, needed the most fleshing-out AFAIC.

The Nick Fury scenes were quite interesting---and the scenario that unfolds and climaxes at the close of the movie involving HYDRA and SHEILD was kinda fun...but again (like the "Falcon" aspects), I felt had much more potential than what made it to the screen.

All my criticism could have easily been solved by adapting the Winter Soldier in a way that touched upon a "Master Group" theme, if not an overt racial theme indicating skin-color, if only in an analogous example inserted in the film at just the right place. during this, the whole "covert" motif and the "brother against brother" motif which is such a big part of what made the original TWS storyline what it was in the comics could have also been punctuated/dispersed more throughout TWS movie sequel to what I thought was a KILLER foundation to build a silver screen Captain America on in the form of CA:TFA.

[hedrap]

Hue - if you really want to drive yourself crazy...

WB had a fledgling network in CW. They made Smallville, which kept CW alive for a decade. That entire time, WB played monopoly with different producers because a network show could never carry a movie.

IF WB streamlined their properties, fired producers like Joel Silver who had no intention in working with DC to make a shared universe, developed the DCU from Smallville and then told Nolan "your Batman is their Batman, deal with it", WB would have been ten years ahead of Marvel.

It's insane. WB literally talked themselves out of it because the execs and producers still bought the 1990's idea that TV was inferior. Now, cable scripted shows are light years better than the majority of movies.

Marvel's huge advantage is they're nimble. If you look at the production of Winter Soldier you can see how Fiege continually upgraded from a Cap3 sequel, (which was based around the 80's Flag Smasher story that intro'd Patriot), into Civil War. Every move was due to MoS2 turning into BvS with Affleck, then a proto-JLA. But WB can't adjust to how big Civil War has gotten, due to all the different investors and producers. WB/DC has to turn to totally controlled properties, like Suicide Squad, to channel all their shared universe building.

[The Bat]

Wow Hue...I wasn't wrong when I said you are hard to please with Superhero Movies(not meant as a slam, just a statement of fact). I don't think it was necessary to announce that the Falcon is African-American...it's pretty obvious he is black.

[clemso]

Great movie, just seen it. Better than the first? Perhaps, at least on par.

[huedell]

Hue - if you really want to drive yourself crazy...
...
Marvel's huge advantage is they're nimble. If you look at the production of Winter Soldier you can see how Fiege continually upgraded from a Cap3 sequel, (which was based around the 80's Flag Smasher story that intro'd Patriot), into Civil War. Every move was due to MoS2 turning into BvS with Affleck, then a proto-JLA. But WB can't adjust to how big Civil War has gotten, due to all the different investors and producers. WB/DC has to turn to totally controlled properties, like Suicide Squad, to channel all their shared universe building.

hedrap---your posts have better integration of themes/motifs than most superhero movies

The concepts of "nimbleness" and "foresight" both play big factors here---and your thoughts clearly diagram (IMHO) why the Suicide Squad movie exists the way it does. Up til now, I just thought it was essentially an unusually cool "outside the box" approach by WB/DC---SS being an even better idea (possibly) than my approach with a JL movie sans the "DC Trinity", with DC's "big three" not to be brought in as members til a JL sequel.

But after your explanation, now I'm seeing SS as more than just a wacky cool idea to help show DC as innovative storytellers. I never thought about the tug-of-wars that could exist WITHIN the WB realm---I'm too used the Marvel Vs. Sony paradigm---which, funnily enough. is now disintegrating.

And WHY is it disintegrating? Because Marvel is SO financially successful and SONY is slipping. Things are going Marvel's way, and, as their recent Spider-Man strategies have shown, they're not too shabby in making the most of their current powerful resources.

Meanwhile, this means that DC is taking a huuuge risk by caring so much about the cool-sounding but low-name-recognition Suicide Squad IMHO, because it's not like DC and Marvel are on equal footing to begin with. I mean, it's cool that DC notably elongated production time for BVsS:DOJ to aid in accounting for all this "catch-up"---but DOJ is going to have to be unbelievably slick to "kill the ten birds with one stone" that it needs to in this one 2 hour piece.