Wonder Woman...No respect?

[ctc]

>exist alongside a big thick Shojo Manga style volume

I don't think there's really a THEMATIC reason it couldn't; but I think you'd get a LOT of resistance from the audience. The superhero crowd would HATE it 'cos it's too Japanese, and the Japanese comic fans would hate it 'cos it's too superhero. (Look at how much recalcitrance the comic fans HERE have when I suggest a Japanese comic for those tired of current superheroes.)

You can have the two Batman's 'cos the dark one appeals to the 14 year olds (and those who think like them) and the lighthearted one appeals to nostalgic dad, who'll prime the kiddies for it. Wonder Woman's been kinda out of the loop in that regard. Not a lot of nostalgic oldsters.

>do people even know DC tried to launch a line of girl-centric comics?

See, there's part of the problem too; mainstream comic fans tend to be male. Anything smacking of girliness is usually poo-poo'd out of hand; even theough it's probably NOT more soapy than a lot of male oriented comics. (Every superhero has a love interest, and the 80's X-Men and Legion were weepier than a week of "All My Children." Yes Scott, Jean's dead. AGAIN. Get over it....)

Ultimately it's all a matter of perception. People come with a LOT of bias.

'Course, I don't know if gong all Shojo is a good idea. It is if you're looking to expand your line, bring in new audience members and present something that has a chance of actually being new and inventive.... but seriously; mainstream comics have NEVER been about that.

You could probably comprimise though. There are a lot of artists (even just on my buddy Jeff's site) who could probably draw the character, keep the heroic action, add some expressiveness, and provide a novel comic:

-I've always liked Teri Wood's stuff:
SB Guest Artwork featuring SnowBuni and the Sylvalagi

-or Mike Sagara:
SB Guest Artwork featuring SnowBuni and the Sylvalagi

-if you want to go a bit more traditional there's Charles Ettinger:
SB Archive Artwork featuring SnowBuni and the Sylvalagi

-or someone like Doug Gracey for something more cartoony:
SB Guest Artwork featuring SnowBuni and the Sylvalagi

-or split the difference with a Dave Carleson:
SB Archive Artwork featuring SnowBuni and the Sylvalagi

Don C.

[samurainoir]

The superhero crowd would HATE it 'cos it's too Japanese, and the Japanese comic fans would hate it 'cos it's too superhero.

Then who is buying those Ami Com Anime style statues? They are obviously successful enough to make a second series. SOMEONE is accepting the amalgamation of Superheroes and Anime.

And the consumer has also voted positively with their $$$ when it comes to Batman and anime...
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/0BTGK-DVD.php

Anime and Superheroes exists quite lucratively together according to Warner DVD sales.

You can have the two Batman's 'cos the dark one appeals to the 14 year olds (and those who think like them) and the lighthearted one appeals to nostalgic dad, who'll prime the kiddies for it. Wonder Woman's been kinda out of the loop in that regard. Not a lot of nostalgic oldsters.

I think it's well established that 14 year old boys aren't the primary audience for direct market Batman comics anymore, it's middle aged men. Visit any of your local comic shops on Wednesday. Hardly a 14 year old boy in sight.

At this point, who's reading Wonder Woman every month if not nostalgic oldsters? Isn't the current run geared towards them? It's certainly not geared towards girls, although I guess Jodi Picoult was an interesting attempt to satisfy both, especially when you use Terry Dodson as an artist to try and appeal to the guys. We know there was a lacklustre response from the old guys, anyone know any Jodi Picoult fans that sampled Wonder Woman?

Girls are certainly aware of Wonder Woman via the Justice League cartoons and Toys R Us. The seventies Linda Carter TV show remains a nostalgic force, and is arguably one of the main drives towards a live action feature film incarnation. There is brand recognition to build on. Who doesn't know Wonder Woman?

'Course, I don't know if gong all Shojo is a good idea. It is if you're looking to expand your line, bring in new audience members and present something that has a chance of actually being new and inventive.... but seriously; mainstream comics have NEVER been about that.

Make up your mind about Shojo already! It's either got a female audience or it doesn't, you pull it out of left field as a successful example of female readership and then turn around and claim it's trappings won't attract female readers because it's not new and inventive. Are Harlequin Romances New and Inventive?

Manga is the mainstream now. Go to your local bookstore if you don't believe me. Shojo's got it's foothold over here, it's not just Japan now.

And then we cue The Sandman discussion, which again is miles away from the real discussion around Wonder Woman, unless I toss out the suggestion that perhaps Neil Gaiman write a Wonder Woman comic. Why not? Dude LOVES mythology and frequently collaborates with Jill Thompson (who can do her Shojo style or her post Perez Wonder Woman style, whatever). Given who is in attendance tonight for his appearance at Toronto's Luminato, you really can't deny Gaiman's built-in female audience and the instant marketability of such a product on mainstream best seller lists.

So you're given the reigns of a brand new Wonder Woman title and told to gear her back towards it's original intended audience as a role model for young girls. Your buddy Jeff or Teri Wood will draw it. Who will write it, how do you market it, and how will this be new and innovative and bring in this fickle new generation of female readers that can't make it's mind up about manga and also wants something new and innovative?

Anyone else want to play? Fantasy Football Comics Creation.

[ctc]

>Anime and Superheroes exists quite lucratively together according to Warner DVD sales.

Most of their animated stuff is still pretty western though. They've dabbled with more Japanese style bits; but seem to fall back more on the old Timm style superheroes. Probably 'cos of costs. I think you can get away with this more with animation than a comic since the "educated" animation crowd generally considers Japanese stuff to be the technical pinnacle; whereas the "educated" comic book crowd, if superhero fans, consider it a big eyed abberration.

>Then who is buying those Ami Com Anime style statues?

Good question; as is how many of them are there. Enough to support a book? Maybe.

>Manga is the mainstream now.

HELL yeah! So maybe the trick is swaying the manga fans to superheroes more than verse-vica?

>I think it's well established that 14 year old boys aren't the primary audience for direct market Batman comics anymore,

True; which is why I added the brackets. I think inertia plays a part with a lot of the older fans, especially when I see how much they complain about the newer stories and still buy them. On the up side, it seems like the speculators have moved on, so you get folks READING the books again. Unfortunately they're pretty set in their ways.

>Make up your mind about Shojo already! It's either got a female audience or it doesn't,

SHOJO has a DEFINITE female audience; I'm saying that I don't know if Wonder Woman does, and I have my doubts that a hybrid of the two would go over well with either fan base. That's why I suggesed a full manga makeover would probably not be a real good idea, but you could move the art more in that direction, focussing on composition and expression more than action and physique.... and differentiate a WW book from the rest of the DC herd. You'd need a writer that fit the art though, otherwise you get a book with very detailed designs where characters yell "No! YOU will DIE!" at each other.

....which would be an interesting effect; but I could see it getting old pretty quick.

>told to gear her back towards it's original intended audience as a role model for young girls.

That's kinda tricky too, since she's a female character; but is generally presented pretty much the same as the male characters and embodies male traits. It's a superhero comic. Flower it up all you want but it's still about people hitting each other.

But if you're looking to get AWAY from that sort of story.... Well; you could work backwards through the stories.... focussing more on why the characters do what they do and fleshing out their motivations. (That's a trick the Japanese use a lot. Between insane fight scenes....) But you quickly come up against the practicality of a mainstream American comic: the perpetual nature and the rotating staff. Odds are really good that anything you define today will be changed tomorrow. And if you're trying for a more character oriented book that sort of thing doesn't bode well. It'll lead to inconsistencies and rushed threads.

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

funny when I go to bookstores now I see the Manga section and never ever anybody there browsing it.

[The Toyroom]

Manga sucks

[huedell]

Wonder Woman was originally created to be a role model for young girls based on a Feminine (pre-Feminist) Utopian Ideal in the 1940's.

In 2009, the primary target audience for the Wonder Woman comic books has shifted to middle aged men (for about the last three decades), of which we in this thread are probably a typical sampling.

While apparently true for comic collectors, it's hopefully
gonna skew considerably younger as WW gets closer to getting on the
screen and even younger still if she ever returns to a successful solo show
on TV.

As I said earlier, regardless of the intentions of the original
version of the WW character, I vote for the more anger-management
version I've gotten the vibe of in the past few decades, particularly
from the Timm/Dini version of WW....basically playing up the whole
"bitter Amazon" bit. Gives the character more of a distinction
from goody-goody Supes, which I believe both Bats and WW should have.

It also makes WW more "fun" IMO.

I used to feel that way about Aquaman, but after seeing the more
"regal/oblivious" version of Aquaman in the ne B&TB cartoon, I'm
thinking maybe otherwise

[Riffster]

Manga sucks

couldn't agree more

[thunderbolt]

Manga sucks

dunno if i'd go that far, but its time has passed as the in thing for the American kiddies today.

[samurainoir]

>Anime and Superheroes exists quite lucratively together according to Warner DVD sales.

Most of their animated stuff is still pretty western though. They've dabbled with more Japanese style bits; but seem to fall back more on the old Timm style superheroes.

I'm telling you straight up BATMAN GOTHAM KNIGHT is ANIME. As in actual Japanese People making drawings that move.

Just like the ANI-MATRIX which preceded it, they got some of the best teams of Anime talent together for an anthology tie in to The Dark Knight.

Bruce Timm might have a producer credit (as he does with all DC Direct to DVD animated features now), but there is no mistaking the very distinctive anime styles of Madhouse (Ninja Scroll, Vampire Hunter D), Bee Train (Noir, .hack//Sign), Production I.G (Ghost in the Shell) etc.

It has sold like hotcakes and I have no doubt that there have been many more 14 year old boys that have seen this, than the 14 year old boys who are spotted in Comic Book Stores in any given week.

[Riffster]

I didn't care for any of the art in Gotham Knight, it's the worst of any of the DC movies to come out IMHO

[samurainoir]

dunno if i'd go that far, but its time has passed as the in thing for the American kiddies today.

Not according to the record breaking sales and attendance at Anime North this year. 14,800 attended! It was absolutely nuts. Most attendees were in their teens and twenties.

To give you the scope of the growth, in 2003 the attendance was about 5,000 people.

[aquatroy]

That's beautiful.

[BlackKnight]

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9...comiww2xi4.jpg
That's beautiful.

I've scene all these up Close,.. & they All are very,.. very Nice Pieces.
I think alittle on the High Price side,.. However Most of those Cartoon Manga pieces are spendy Stuff.

[ctc]

>Manga sucks

See; that's what I was getting at. Saying something like this is like me saying "TV sucks; ALL tv sucks" 'cos I didn't like "American Idol." But people group things into very broad categories and then run with it.

>I vote for the more anger-management version

Y'know.... I'd be leary of that take, since this makes her a lot like every female lead in a superhero comic since the 90's. It's a USEFUL character type for a superhero comic, 'cos you can captialize on the action/mayhem aspect of the genre, but for a new take it's kinda old hat. (And if you were trying to swing more female readers it might put them off. Just as males tend to poo poo the 'feminine' stories, so too do females poo poo male-type stories.)

I think if I was gonna do WW I'd play her up more as a "big sister" type. Make her level headed and observant. She has a different perspective from everyone else and I'd play that up as her seeing the world as a befudddling mix of people doing things for strange reasons. Brought on 'cos her own society is simpler and more organized than ours. More homogenous too; so she's probably see a lot of the distinctions we take for granted as somewhat superficial. (So you could sneak in some timeliness and social commentary if you wanted.)

But she's also extremely self confident and stalwart; so I wouldn't have this sort of thing phase her, or even frustrate her. It'd come across more how an older kid sees younger ones: they're silly, but that's just how they are. So she'd be somewhat apart from the rest of the heroes; more of an observer, except that her personal sense of right and wrong would often flare up, prompting her to act. (Which would allow for more character based stories as you show the sort of things that get a reaction from her.)

>I'm telling you straight up BATMAN GOTHAM KNIGHT is ANIME.

Well; visually yes, but story and pacing it's still extremely superhero. It moves from action to action, without the set scenes or character reaction moments the Japanese use so often.

.... not that I think this is BAD; it presents something a little different from the sources it draws from, and that's always good.

>As in actual Japanese People making drawings that move.

Realisticly, they're probably Korean....

>its time has passed as the in thing for the American kiddies today.

Dunno if I'd agree with that. I think it's become a standard now, so it being Japanese is no longer a selling point, like it was in the late 90's. Naruto is just a cartoon to the fans; not specificly a Japanese cartoon any more. Except apparently for the old fans....

Don C.

[The Toyroom]

>Manga sucks

See; that's what I was getting at. Saying something like this is like me saying "TV sucks; ALL tv sucks" 'cos I didn't like "American Idol." But people group things into very broad categories and then run with it.

Well being the one who said "Manga sucks" originally I have to stand behind this statement...at least for me personally...I've never cared for manga, anime, ANY of that style stuff. Just doesn't reach out and grab me... But that's me. I'm sure it does appeal to lots of people though.