Wonder Woman...No respect?

[ctc]

>I've never cared for manga, anime, ANY of that style stuff.

But that leads to the qunundrum.... it doesn't appeal to you, so you've probably never perused any significant amount of it, so your chances of finding something you LIKE is pretty small.... even given the huge diversity the medium has.

I don't like using the term "manga" for Japanese comics. In the minds of most people it denotes a style, which isn't quite right. Kinda like when I used "TV." "TV" covers a LOT of ground: news, doccumentaries, Three's Company, the prisioner, Star Trek, All My Children, Beanie and Cecil, Hill Street Blues, Shot at Love W. Tela Tequila, the Venture Brothers, Hannity and Friends, National Geographic Presents.... To lump all those into ONE term is insane; but that's what a lot of the non-fans do with "manga."

Which is cool; you like what you like and the world isn't gonna come to an end one way or another. Personally it's a problem, 'cos it limits how much of a discussion I can have with people about comics. I can debate the merits of superheroes 'cos I've READ them. Lots of them. (I worked in a comic shop and people would come in and CHALLENGE my knowledge....) But it's tough for other people to retort any "manga" related point 'cos they've never really read any. "I don't like it" is about the best you get, and even THAT'S difficult to quantify beyond "the eyes are weird" without offering any examples.

I got the same problem with Archie, Harvey, and other "lesser" comic branches. Since I was a kid and got into comics back during the early 80's boom it's been a constant frustration how narrowly defined most people's definition of "comic" is. And I think we're seeing the fallout nowadays; Marvel, DC and sometimes Image have become intellectually inbred because the current crop of producers, who were the previous crop of fans, have such narrow parameters it's difficult (if not impossible) for them to REALLY rejuvenmate their books 'cos they've got nothing to add. From the fan end, look at the complaints: I wish it was more like the OLD book, I wish it was like when *name here* was doing it, MY Batman wouldn't call people a ******.... NOBODY'S looking forward. NOBODY'S adding to the mix.

....which kinda brings us back to this thread: what would you ADD to Wonder Woman to make her pertinent again?

*WEIRD ASIDE: A friend of mine spent a lot of time in Japan, and attended a few comic conventions. He noted that the atendees were OVERWHELMINGLY female.

*WEIRD ASIDE TOO: I think the MOST anime DC show was the "Teen Titans." Seriously, they ripped scenes right from different Japanese cartoons. (I've been told, mostly "Cooly Fooly.")

....and a lot of you guys liked the Titans....

Don C.

[BlackKnight]

With all Due Respect to All the Parties Involved.....
With the Epic Battle of Whether or Not Manga Sucks,.. or rather the Coolness of Manga Debate,.. I seriously Do not think it Matters Not when the Question of Why No Respect of WonderWoman is On Trial with the Masses.

[samurainoir]

>Manga sucks

See; that's what I was getting at. Saying something like this is like me saying "TV sucks; ALL tv sucks" 'cos I didn't like "American Idol." But people group things into very broad categories and then run with it.

Agreed. It's like saying "American Comics Suck" with limited exposure to Marvel and DC product, and not taking into consideration the actually variety and depth of material ranging from undergrounds like Robert Crumb, or anthropomorphic documentary like Maus, all the way across the Spectrum to Ziggy and the Family Circus.

I can tell you straight up that I think Mah Jong Manga sucks, but I'm actually rivited by manga tracing the product development of instant cup noodle. Shojo isn't my bag, but give me some thrillers like Battle Royale, Death Note, Monster, Eagle or Dragonhead.

Although it's odd that you are not willing to acknowledge the same diversity in consideration of anime that you do with manga...

>I'm telling you straight up BATMAN GOTHAM KNIGHT is ANIME.

Well; visually yes, but story and pacing it's still extremely superhero. It moves from action to action, without the set scenes or character reaction moments the Japanese use so often.

.... not that I think this is BAD; it presents something a little different from the sources it draws from, and that's always good.

>As in actual Japanese People making drawings that move.

Realisticly, they're probably Korean....

It's really not hard to quickly look this up before making these kind of assumptions.

IT'S NOT A "SOURCE" IF IT'S THE ACTUAL STUDIO AND ANIMATORS DOING THE HANDS ON WORK! THE JAPANESE GUYS THAT DID GHOST IN THE SHELL AND NINJA SCROLL ANIMATED THIS MOVIE. THEY WEREN'T "INFLUENCED" BY ANIME, THEY ARE ACTUAL ANIME STUDIOS, DIRECTORS, ARTIST, ANIMATORS, PRODUCING ANIME PRODUCT!

This is not Bruce Timm and co making the key frames and sending them to the Koreans to do the in-betweening ala Batman TAS, JLU, Teen Titans, Superman Doomsday or JLA New Frontier (as you are implying).

Batman: Gotham Knight (2008) (V) - Full cast and crew
Looks like a full slate of Japanese names to me!
I repeat: As in actual Japanese People making drawings that move. ANIME.

Unless you want to present your own unique left field definition of Anime that conveniently ignores the contributions of the Japanese Animators (including the directors) on this project.

Pacing is the director's job...

Directed by
Yasuhiro Aoki (segment "In Darkness Dwells")
Yuichiro Hayashi (co-director) (segment "In the Darkness Dwells")
Futoshi Higashide (segment "Crossfire")
Toshiyuki Kubooka (segment "Working Through Pain")
Hiroshi Morioka (segment "Field Test")
Jong-Sik Nam (segment "Deadshot")
Shoujirou Nishimi (segment "Have I Got a Story For You") (as Shojiro Nishimi)

Japanese names. Japanese directors. Directors are responsible for pacing. They are also working each segment in different studios/anime companies separate from one another and did not all suddenly conspire to change the way they "pace" all simultaneously.

Compare it with Ninja Scroll or Ghost in the Shell. You really won't see much different with the style and pacing of those respective works from the same studios in Gotham Knight. And those two are pretty extreme examples since their style and pacing is radically different from one another and can't be boxed into a particular overarching "anime style" other than the preferences of their own artists, directors and studios.


And just to tie it back into Wonder Woman, why not also do a Gotham Knight style Anime project with her? Give it to a different set of studios. Heck, I would get a kick out of seeing her done FLCL style.

I'd also like to see Teen Titans producer Glenn Murakami's take on Wonder Woman given the fact that he made some pretty purposeful extreme departures from the Bruce Timm style that he had been working under for close to a decade. The Golden Age Wonder Woman actually had some fun and whimsy to it, I'm sure Murakami would have a field day with Etta Candy and the Holliday girls.

[samurainoir]

With all Due Respect to All the Parties Involved.....
With the Epic Battle of Whether or Not Manga Sucks,.. or rather the Coolness of Manga Debate,.. I seriously Do not think it Matters Not when the Question of Why No Respect of WonderWoman is On Trial with the Masses.

I wish I had read your post before pulling us further into the mire.

Okay. New direction...


At one point in history, Wonder Woman was held up as the embodiment of contemporary (70's Gloria Steinem) feminism.

What happened? Does it still hold true in her iconography to the masses?

Did they take Linda Carter seriously when she ran around jiggling like that? (or any of the other female action heroes of the 70's like Police Woman, Bionic Woman or the Charlie's Angels).

Does Xena get more respect than Wonder Woman?

Would a Joss Whedon film have earned some kind of Respect?

[ctc]

>Although it's odd that you are not willing to acknowledge the same diversity in consideration of anime that you do with manga...

Well; it doesn't have the diversity, especially lately.... mostly 'cos it's expensive. Comics are cheap to produce and Japan has a receptive market so you get a LOT more experimenting.

>IT'S NOT A "SOURCE" IF IT'S THE ACTUAL STUDIO AND ANIMATORS DOING THE HANDS ON WORK!

If anime=Japanese cartoon then yeah; this works. But if you're working from the idea that anime=a particular stlye, than I still think the Batman vignettes are a kind of hybrid. Japanese on the technical side, but still very American at the core. (Not surprising, considering it's based on an American comic.) By the first definition the old GI Joe cartoon is anime.

>why not also do a Gotham Knight style Anime project with her?

I'm kinda surprised they havent. Maybe not SURPRISED, since cartoons is real expensive to make.... but a grab-bag of styles might help them pin down what exactly it is the audience wants from the character.

>Does it still hold true in her iconography to the masses?

Hmmmm.... that's a tough one. I don't think it does, since very few people would find a woman in a heroic role all that weird nowadays. Which could be one reason it's so tough to figure out what to do with the character any more. You can't play her up as a competent woman in a man's world 'cos for a significant portion of your audience it's a non-issue.

>Does Xena get more respect than Wonder Woman?

I doubt it. I think Xena is played out. (Until they announce the big budget film. Probably starring Will Ferrel somehow....)

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

no more Gotham Knights type stuff. Really didn't care for the style and the lack of substance to it.

[samurainoir]

By the first definition the old GI Joe cartoon is anime.

GI Joe is definitely NOT Anime because of the differences I outlined to debunk the insistence that Bruce Timm and co were directing Gotham Knight. Just look at the credits for GI Joe! This stuff is not hard to look up on your own.
Cartoon Characters and Crew for G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero, Part 1; The Cobra Strikes

Most of the crucial "Hands On" work was done by Marvel Productions/Sunbow based in the USA. The directors are American. The design sheets are created by Americans. The Key Frames are done by the Americans. If there were Japanese involved at all (or Koreans or Chinese), it was the in-betweening. Essentially that makes the creative decisions in terms of style and pacing in the hands of the US based (now defunct) Marvel Productions/Sunbow, and all the "grunt" work done overseas.

HOWEVER
Here is a good place to show the difference. For most of it's run, Transformers is mostly American driven, EXCEPT the Japanese continued the series exclusively for the Japanese Market after Marvel Studios stopped making episodes.

Japanese only Transformers episodes were produced by Japanese Studios for the Japanese Market from 1987 onwards. Headmasters series onwards is Anime. And you can see the difrerences between the style of the American Version and it's Japanese continuation.

[The Toyroom]

There's waaaay too much anime and manga discussion in this thread that's supposed to be about Wonder Woman IMO ....take it outside fellas

[MIB41]

As much as I admire and respect the Wonder Woman character, I believe most male readers in the panel graphic artform envision themselves saving a woman, rather than the woman being the hero. I think that is part of the mechanics of comics. I think we see ourselves in an idealistic way through our favorite heroes and there is nothing better than saving the girl next door and have her beaming all over you. In your humble, but studly, fashion you reply, "Shucks ma'am. Twas nothing." I think we're conditioned to feel that way. Okay psychological study over... Freud out.

[samurainoir]

Is it that Wonder Woman hasn't really felt "relevant" for quite some time? She hasn't exactly been the poster girl for Feminism since the seventies.

I'm trying to think of other female characters that have perhaps more relevance in the Comic Book Direct Market, and off the top of my head it seems like Buffy is probably the big example of a female character in comics with a strong fan-base and crossover appeal.

Much of it has to do with the fact that it's creator Joss Whedon creating new stories and billing it as a "Season 8" direct continuation of his TV series. I understand it's definitely brought in a new crowd into comic book stores. I know anecdotally that many comic stores set special sections of their store showcasing Buffy Season 8 and Angel After the Fall as well as related merchandise in order to capitalize on the traffic of new customers coming in seeking the new Buffy stories, and there was a larger percentage of new female readers.

Is Buffy a stronger contemporary "role-model" than Wonder Woman these days?

[ctc]

>I'm trying to think of other female characters that have perhaps more relevance in the Comic Book Direct Market

If you go back to the 90's there were zillions of 'em; mostly 'cos cartoonists realized if you make the hot chick the lead you can show her off more. That kinda changed in recent times. Not sure why, but I think it had to do with stuff like Batman gaining popularity and the re-macho-ing of the superhero. Most of the female lead superhero and superhero-esque movies tanked huge so they went back to the tough guy template.

>Is Buffy a stronger contemporary "role-model" than Wonder Woman these days?

Hmmmm.... another good question. I think Buffy is kept alive by a core of very dedicated fans; but almost any superhero proper is gonna have wider recognition and influence. Buffy's not quite a fixture for the average person, but Wonder Woman is.

'Course, does a female character HAVE to be a bastion of womanhood? And what exactly does that mean? Like I said before, I don't think playing up the "woman" part of a rejuvenation for Wonder Woman would be a particularly useful thing to do.

>There's waaaay too much anime and manga discussion in this thread

HAW! Get with the times, man! Tights and capes are SOOOOOOOOO last century.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

'Course, does a female character HAVE to be a bastion of womanhood? And what exactly does that mean? Like I said before, I don't think playing up the "woman" part of a rejuvenation for Wonder Woman would be a particularly useful thing to do.

Not just any female character. We're talking about Wonder Woman and it's the elephant in the room when it comes to ANY discussion around her history and iconography.

To review: she was created as a Role Model for young girls based on a female utopian ideal, and sold on the newsstands on that basis back when comics had that kind of immediacy and relevance to youth. In the seventies she was the poster child for Gloria Steinam's "Ms" Feminism. When the character IS historically the "bastion of womanhood", there is a certain expectation and value to looking at her current state of relevance and what it means in contemporary culture. Otherwise she might as well exist in antiquity along with Rosie the Riveter.

It's like discussing why Uncle Sam has to hold the iconograpy of the United States? Is there much use in "rejuvenating" him outside of his historical and iconographic context? Maybe we could reimagine him as all "hip hop" like they did with Colonel Sanders a few years back.

I mean what exactly is this reflective of when examining Wonder Woman's current readership?

[ctc]

>I mean what exactly is this reflective of when examining Wonder Woman's current readership?

Superheroes who kick *** are KEWEL!

I think the problem HERE is that most superheroes are squashed into the same template any more. A template that changes when the next big thing comes around. So if you've got a character with an ideology behind them it all sorta gets glossed over when that ideology is no longer prominent.

Don C.

[BlackKnight]

For what it's Worth,
Max Lord Deserved his Neck Broken Point Blank.
The Dude Shot Ted Kord in the Head, & Killed Him.
I personally thought what Wonder Woman did to him, WAS KEWEL .
Even more so,.. because it WAS her that did it.

[Riffster]

I thought her killing Lord was great, she had no choice really. and stupid as he was he made the case for her to kill him


course can't you just see him coming back as a black lantern?