Retro Rayner

[LOU]

No offense taken Lou. Do you collect DC Universe classics 6" figures? If you do and you see Kyle Rayner on the shelf everywhere, you are in the minority. I have seen him once and bought him. Every site I visit that cares about the line consistently mentions that he is the one missing on the shelf. Other collectors confirm he is the one that sells first. Other than the Manhunter every other figure is one to a case in a case of eight. Apparently some people do want him or you could find him everywhere.

Hi puck,
No sir, I don't collect DCU but if Kyle is blowing out of stores, I'd bet it has more to do with the scarcity of the figure than it does popularity. In that respect, historically short-packed figures always disappear from shleves.

I'm no fan of Kyle really. I just think your claim that every figure of him is a peg warmer is off base.

Again, I can't possibly be way off base because I am basing my comments about Kyle in action figure form based on history that's already happened. Kyle Rayner was a shelf warmer in every toy line he's been part of, apparently except DCU now. Chances are he's disappearing because he's a scarce item now, he wasn't back then.

The line hasn't ended. Joe said many of the fan favorites are coming. I believe him. Look what happened to Shazam after people complained about him. They are listening to our concerns. I'll worry about the line when I see evidence to support that it may be in trouble. I just don't see it yet.

Who said the line was ending? I didn't. I said it MIGHT die one day before certain figures are made and AGAIN, this is based on Super Hero toy line history where lines have come out and heavy-hitting DC'ers never see the light of day. Further, all I said was that Joe nor anyone else can predict that. Please read my posts thoroughly because I am explaining the same things here over an over again because people are not reading or comprehending what I wrote. I never at any point in this thread insinuated I thought the line was ending! I simply described my fears of it dying before the main characters are made.

[puckace]

No offense taken Lou. Do you collect DC Universe classics 6" figures? If you do and you see Kyle Rayner on the shelf everywhere, you are in the minority. I have seen him once and bought him. Every site I visit that cares about the line consistently mentions that he is the one missing on the shelf. Other collectors confirm he is the one that sells first. Other than the Manhunter every other figure is one to a case in a case of eight. Apparently some people do want him or you could find him everywhere.

I'm no fan of Kyle really. I just think your claim that every figure of him is a peg warmer is off base.

The line hasn't ended. Joe said many of the fan favorites are coming. I believe him. Look what happened to Shazam after people complained about him. They are listening to our concerns. I'll worry about the line when I see evidence to support that it may be in trouble. I just don't see it yet.

The GL Matty exclusives are just icing on the cake for me. Without the movie, I don't think we would see most of them. They are like getting a Christmas bonus. A mostly welcome surprise for a line that I thought would never see a Guy Garner let alone Kyle Rayner.

[LOU]

Tom, can you imagine if this line gets up to as many as 100 different figures???!! WOW!
As far as your remarks go, yeah, if there's DEFINITELY DEFINITELY 32 figures guaranteed to be produced then all my remarks here are null and void because it won't matter anymore. My concern is will there really be 8 waves? Sure, they've been planned, but does that guarantee the line will last that long? I'm not a risk taker like that so that's why I would get the main heroes and villains done before any secondary characters. If I truly believed this line will still be around in two years then I wouldn't be worrying so much. But at $20 a pop I'm just not so sure about that and it worries me. I've just seen it happen too many times before. The Total Justice line is one that pops into my head. I will NEVER, NEVER understand how we got a Huntress in that line and not Wonder Woman. It's that kind of nonsensical character selection that I worry about. Sure I love Huntress too, but no Wonder Woman? Really? I'm sure she was "planned" as well but she was never made. See my point here? So I have a DC line with Huntress and no Wonder Woman now. Why? So people who look at my collection only to ask me "Who's that lady? Where's Wonder Woman?" LOL! So it would be a true shame if the Retro line did end with glaring DC omissions like this.
Only time will tell and all we can do is keep buying what they put out there for Heroes. Fingers crossed...

[MIB41]

Yeah, same here Lou. The line is getting pretty exciting because we're beginning to cross over into what I consider to be the 'undiscovered country' that Mego never found. Of course we'll get some more established heroes and villians. But with a bunch of waves yet to come (eight total isn't it?) that leaves a lot of room for many heroes and villains I never thought I would see in my lifetime. If I'm left guessing who they will be...well I like that dilemma! That's very cool!

[LOU]

Hey Tom! Yeah I recall someone making a reference to Kenner's Super Powers line and how Kenner released all the main characters first whereby making the later waves less popular. Of course that becomes a "what came first the chicken or the egg" kind of quandry. One school of thought can say they should've staggered the main heroes and gave longevity to the line; the other school of thought on that however, to which I seem to adhere, would be "Thank goodness they made all the main characters before the line died!" So I guess if someone thinks Super Powers died because of a weak final wave, they may be inclined to agree to stagger main characters. I personally believe it would've died anyway, regardless, so imagine if Kenner had waited to release their Super Powers, say, Hawkman and Green Arrow and then the line died anyway. All that would've happened is what I've been talking about all along...in that case we'd have Cyclotron and Golden Pharoah but no Green Arrow or Hawkman. So there's a fine line there with these philosophies. We'll see what the future brings and I hope that my current worries about this line are proven erroneous. In the meantime I will buy everything they make to help support the line.

[MIB41]

I think when Mattel agreed with EMCE to make this line, the characters were predetermined, including the Matty Collector exclusives. I would also think they agreed upon the character distribution as well. It makes sense that some established characters would be held for later waves to keep the line fresh and popular. Joe eluded to that briefly in his response. This allows room for DC to promote it's other characters within that license. The Matty Exclusives are very limited runs, so the idea of them offering the various incarnations of the Green Lantern to tie in with the movie expands the DC license without interrupting the waves already preplanned. Since there will be a new GL figure offered each month, I think the availability will be very limited. Because of this, I believe each character will sell out. You won't see any peg warmers since their online exclusives. Just my two cents.

[LOU]

Not a big Kyle Rayner fan but he is not always a peg warmer. He is consistently the only figure missing from DC Universe Classics Green Lantern wave one when people can find them. Seems to me he's kind of in demand right now.

Well no offense but I am hard-pressed to believe that Kyle Rayner is "in demand" in any capacity. Maybe he's a short-pack figure because of his unpopularity and that's why everyone is grabbing him. I really do not believe there's a large number of people running around seeking out a Kyle Rayner figure right now.

Personally, I'd rather have Hawkman in the RA line, but Joe already has stated that no one was bumped for the GL Matty exclusives, so I'm not that worried.

Once again, for the third or fourth time here, how can Joe or anyone say "no one has been bumped" until the line ends???! I mean haven't I repeated this 4 times already and explained why this isn't possible for anyone to discern right now? That's like a navigator telling you there's plenty of gas in the car's gas tank in spite of the fact he has no idea how long the road trip he's going on is going to be to begin with. It's simpy impossible. I've said this a million different ways already and I'm running out of English words to explain this so people understand.

[puckace]

Not a big Kyle Rayner fan but he is not always a peg warmer. He is consistently the only figure missing from DC Universe Classics Green Lantern wave one when people can find them. Seems to me he's kind of in demand right now.

Personally, I'd rather have Hawkman in the RA line, but Joe already has stated that no one was bumped for the GL Matty exclusives, so I'm not that worried.

I think wave 5 is going to make people really happy when they decide to reveal it.

[LOU]

Thats the issue though, you are setting your self up for disapointment if you are trying to force your wants on the company that has its own plan. The plan as I have heard it was as I and others have said, a retro style, not sticking to 70s era characters. You can want that all you want, but that doesn't mean the company is screwing up by not following your plan instead of theirs.

It certainly does mean the company is "screwing up" if Kyle Rayner is a shelf warmer as he has been EVERY SINGLE time he's been released as an action figure thus far.

This speculation is ridiculous. We already know that Mattel agreed to a certain number of Characters. And we know that the Matty Exclusives are not supposed to be part of the regular waves. Count them as bonus figures.
In that sense, none of the regular wave characters are being bumped for these figures.

Now as to the question of being 'bumped' I think a lot of this is scemantics. Being bumped implies by definition; "to oust usually by virtue of seniority or priority." That would mean a decision to purposefully remove someone from the line because someone more important came along. EMCE has stated this isn't happening, none of the characters are being purposefully ousted. That is entirely different than say, intending to do as many characters as possible and having the plug pulled by virtue of scope and purpose.

In practical terms these two scenarios are very different, but it seems to me, the connotation implied by the use of the term is intended to be more negative than what is actually going on. I think that is the core of the disagreement.

No characters are being bumped, but not all characters created by DC will get made simply because there is a never ending supply and the line will not be eternal.

To the post above, it may be difficult to know what will or won't be a shelf warmer. Green Lantern may not be a shelf warmer when the moviecomes out, but maybe Hawkman would be?

The speculation is far from ridiculous, it's based on a clear history of previous Super Hero lines, including the great Mego itself! Sure it's speculation, but worlds away from ridiculous since exactly what I am saying here has happened MANY, MANY times before in Hero toy lines.
That may be the literal definition of the word "bump" but we're using the term here in a figurative manner. Simply put, if the line ends tomorrow and we don't get a Hawkman, one could most definitely say Hawkman got "bumped" by Kyle Rayner. Your definition, "to oust usually by virtue of seniority or priority" would be very much applicable in that instance. So what we'd then be debating, using the very definition you provided us here, is whether Kyle Rayner is considered "priority" or whether Kyle Rayner has "seniority" over Hawkman as a DC character. I think everyone reading this can answer those two questions relatively quickly.

To the post above, it may be difficult to know what will or won't be a shelf warmer. Green Lantern may not be a shelf warmer when the moviecomes out, but maybe Hawkman would be?

Difficult to know? Are you serious? Were you in toy stores across America back in the 90's where Kyle Rayner was CLEARLY an unsold shelf warmer?? How is it difficult for you to know whether or not he'd be a shelf warmer since that's all he's ever been?! Makes no sense here unless you completely ignore toy history. The Green Lantern movie isn't going to create a mob of rabid Kyle Rayner fans, I can almost promise you that.

[Audiorij]

Well, in a nutshell, there's those of us here that only want Bronze Age/
Mego Era characters.

I don't begrudge you or nyone else wanting more modern characters,
but "I" don't, so i'll continue lobbying for the more Mego-era characters
to be made.... every time a more modern character/character design is
addressed that's one less Bronze Age/Silver Age charcter that ISN'T addressed.

Thats the issue though, you are setting your self up for disapointment if you are trying to force your wants on the company that has its own plan. The plan as I have heard it was as I and others have said, a retro style, not sticking to 70s era characters. You can want that all you want, but that doesn't mean the company is screwing up by not following your plan instead of theirs.

[Audiorij]

This speculation is ridiculous. We already know that Mattel agreed to a certain number of Characters. And we know that the Matty Exclusives are not supposed to be part of the regular waves. Count them as bonus figures.
In that sense, none of the regular wave characters are being bumped for these figures.

Now as to the question of being 'bumped' I think a lot of this is scemantics. Being bumped implies by definition; "to oust usually by virtue of seniority or priority." That would mean a decision to purposefully remove someone from the line because someone more important came along. EMCE has stated this isn't happening, none of the characters are being purposefully ousted. That is entirely different than say, intending to do as many characters as possible and having the plug pulled by virtue of scope and purpose.

In practical terms these two scenarios are very different, but it seems to me, the connotation implied by the use of the term is intended to be more negative than what is actually going on. I think that is the core of the disagreement.

No characters are being bumped, but not all characters created by DC will get made simply because there is a never ending supply and the line will not be eternal.

To the post above, it may be difficult to know what will or won't be a shelf warmer. Green Lantern may not be a shelf warmer when the moviecomes out, but maybe Hawkman would be?

[LOU]

Excellent post LOU... I was so quick to post that I did not read your
post til now... it would've saved me some effort posting myself,
as you carry sentiment quite close to my own.

A lot of what is being discussed here is prone to semantics
unless its expounded upon unfortunately.

Exactly hue!! No one here, not even the EMCE and/or Mattel people themselves, can predict the future and definitively state when the line will end. So then, how can anyone realistically say "no one got bumped" unless you do definitively know when the line will end? You can't. That's the equivalent of Mego reassuring in 1975 that Mr. Mxy didn't cause any other character to get "bumped" from the line...when in actuality that fact couldn't be discerned until the line ended about 5 years later. Then once the line ended and there was no Luthor ever made, suddenly it seems the resources and time wasted on Mxy could've been utilized on Luthor; at that time it would appear that Mxy was a poor choice over Luthor. Ultimately that means Mxy was indeed made "instead of" Luthor or Mxy "bumped" Luthor. So basically what I'm saying is aside from Nostradamus, no one, not even the Retro Hero makers, can predict how long this line will continue...and unless they know how long the line will go on for (ie: know what the final character roster of the line is), there's absolutely no way anyone can say "no one got bumped" because you simply can't possibly know that ahead of time. Fact is we KNOW there's 4 Green Lanterns coming out before some main heroes and villains. So then, what happens if the line is cancelled in 6 months? All the GL lovers will have their 52 Green Lanterns but the rest of us will be sitting here without Hawkman or Firestorm for example. Bottom line, no one can predict the future and until we have these main heroes in our hands, there is still a chance we'll never see them. The point is, make the main heroes and villains FIRST, before the lesser-known characters. Then if the line does end prematurely (which, sadly, many of them do these days so you have to be realistic), at least it would have a roster of characters featuring the popular and legendary heroes and villains. Regardless of what anyone says, there's absolutely no reason to have a Kyle Rayner, a proven shelf warmer, before a Hawkman, I don't care how popular everyone claims this character was/is (not that I beleive that anyway) there's simply no way he should've been made into an action figure before other characters...Green Lantern movie or not. Modern characters in this line should be reserved for later waves, if they must be included, and should certainly not be produced before Mego era characters. It's exactly as you say Hue, these 4 GL's are representative of resources that we one day may be wishing were utilized on other characters. Let's just hope that's not the case and this line goes on for at least a couple more years. But with only about 12 figures a year, having 1/3 of them be GL's is alarming to me. Every wave of these that we get should be considered a blessing, a blessing that shouldn't be squandered making weak characters all based on a presumptive assumption that the line will last long enough for all the main characters to get made too. No one can make that guarantee as toy companies end lines abruptly sometimes. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is come back and read this post of mine in a year and see everything I've written here come to fruition; and it's a very real possibilty that that very thing could happen. It's happened far too many times before in Super Hero action figure history and we need to learn from history here as well.

[samurainoir]

However, from Matty for next year's Batman movie I have NO problem with 4 different Batmans: Original Golden Age, 1950's Bob Kane version, 1970's Neal Adams, Frank Miller's Dark Knight (padded suit would come in handy)

I'm with you on this one, except replace Dick Sprang for Bob Kane in the fifties.

Kane would still be well represented in the original incarnation from Detective 27.

I've wanted Miller style Dark Knight for ages (and I think one of the EMCE guys had stated at one point that was on their personal wish-list). At the very least we have the bulky Hulk style body for customs now! With hands that can grip a baterang!

[huedell]

Guys please, again, no one can discern anything that's stated in these last couple posts here (samurainor and jwyblejr.) Reason is, until the main characters (Joker, Hawkman, Catwoman, Supergirl, etc) are made and/or the line extends on for many years, we simply don't know right now whether the GL's are "instead of." If the line ends and we don't get a Joker but we have a Guy Gardner...yeah I'd say a better figure was very much "bumped", because at that point...it was! So yes, my panties would feel a bit tight at that time. But sorry guys, no one can say "nobody got bumped" because until the rest of the main DC hitters are made, the chance is still very much alive that maybe they won't be made at all, unlkely I suspect, but still it's very much possible. It's happened before in previous toy lines as I mentioned. Ask yourselves this...in retrospect, did Lex Luthor get "bumped" from the Mego line in favor of Mr. Mxy? Yeah I'd say so. Did Flash get "bumped" in favor of, say, Tarzan? Yeah I'd say so. I seriously doubt anyone on this board doesn't wish that Tarzan was instead Flash and Mxy was Luthor. That's what I'm talking about here. I don't want this great line to end with me having a Guy Gardner before say, a Firestorm.

Excellent post LOU... I was so quick to post that I did not read your
post til now... it would've saved me some effort posting myself,
as you carry sentiment quite close to my own.

A lot of what is being discussed here is prone to semantics
unless its expounded upon unfortunately.

[huedell]

I don't know why so many are getting their panties in a bunch. These are on-line exclusives. Nobody got bumped from the regular line to make room for these.

said i wouldn't engage in the back and forth on release speculation, but i think i can save everyone a lot of wasted energy.

1. nothing got "bumped"

???

Basically, all I said was (and what some others agreed with was)....

1. I'm not into modern characters/character designs.
and
2. Every "modern" fig that gets made, well, that's one less
"classic" that doesn't get made.... which, in simple terms,
is a valid take....
i.e. these modern character figures exist and classic ones do not.

Now, if you want to get technical or go into specifics, it's quite easy to say
something didn't get "bumped" as well... it's all perspective.

I never brought up that something in the Retro line
LITERALLY got replaced, and neither did anyone else.