Another Exclusive Sneak Peek at Wave 2

[Hedji]

I'd love to weigh in on this, but I just don't have the stamina. Have at it, gents.

LOL! Remember, it is very difficult to change another person's mind on the internet. Life is too short for such an exercise in futility.

[Liu Bei]

Not looking to stoke any fires at all, but it is a fact that you can create a "whiter white" using certain colors when filming in black & white. (Even in modern photography and using camcorders and digital cameras/phones, there are some colors that actually produce the look of other colors in B&W, especially if you juxtapose certain shades.) For the black & white episodes of Doctor Who, the Tardis console was a light green, because it gave the bright white glow they wanted in B&W for the interior. When they moved to color in the Pertwee era, they built a new (white) console. I've always read that the Monster was made using green makeup to make him look deathly pale, and the shade of green used for that makeup, under B&W lighting, created an pale look that evoked the undead as they wanted him to appear. I have read that the presumption of green skin for the monster then came from color photos of the makeup (since none of the films were made in color), but I admit that is an anecdotal reasoning. I teach high school, and I've had students for years argue that it's green simply because he's a resurrected corpse. I get the logic there, but I have to admit, having encountered the story about the makeup needs first, I have always taken it as "the fact."

I do think the pop cultural view of the Monster is green. That applies to the Universal/Jack Pierce version and the various generic ones that seek to cash in. I cannot think of a major film version (not the Hammer, not the Branagh, not in "True Story") that goes the green route, but the kind of "theme park" version (isn't the one in Monster Squad green, for instance?) is seemingly now green, and that color, along with the flat head and bolts, have become the signifier.

Excellent post. Agree with almost everything except the anecdotal evidence part. Frankenstein being green in the production pictures and (some) of the advertisements because of the green makeup used during filming isn't anecdotal reasoning. I might be inclined to go with the term "logical inference", though there is very little room for doubt, if any.

I did not know that about Doctor Who. Thank you for that. I'm a huge (Classic) Who fan. Probably love the Third Doctor best.

P.S. I teach at University. Never had the chance to discuss Universal Monsters with my students, however, haha.

[J.B.]

As has been covered by you and by I already, colors show up differently in black and white than they do in color. It's why Matt Dillon wore a pink shirt...

Fun thread. And this is why you don't start reading a thread backwards: "What!? Rusty James was rockin' a pink wife beater the entire time!?"

[thunderbolt]

I'd love to weigh in on this, but I just don't have the stamina. Have at it, gents.

[Iron Mego]

Fun thread. And this is why you don't start reading a thread backwards: "What!? Rusty James was rockin' a pink wife beater the entire time!?"

Thank you for this!

[Falstaff13]

Excellent post. Agree with almost everything except the anecdotal evidence part. Frankenstein being green in the production pictures and (some) of the advertisements because of the green makeup used during filming isn't anecdotal reasoning. I might be inclined to go with the term "logical inference", though there is very little room for doubt, if any.

I did not know that about Doctor Who. Thank you for that. I'm a huge (Classic) Who fan. Probably love the Third Doctor best.

P.S. I teach at University. Never had the chance to discuss Universal Monsters with my students, however, haha.

Thanks. When I referred to "anecdotal evidence," I meant that the original times I heard that it was presented as an anecdote but without any citation and without any pictorial evidence, so it was purely being passed on in an account as "Oh, yeah, they made him green because he was supposed to look like a rotting corpse" without any thing else related to production history. I agree there is no doubt about it.

[Liu Bei]

Thanks. When I referred to "anecdotal evidence," I meant that the original times I heard that it was presented as an anecdote but without any citation and without any pictorial evidence, so it was purely being passed on in an account as "Oh, yeah, they made him green because he was supposed to look like a rotting corpse" without any thing else related to production history. I agree there is no doubt about it.

Ah yes, I understand what you mean now. As for the rotting corpse bit, I do believe that is one of the primary reasons that the green coloring stuck so easily to the Frankenstein monster, and not Dracula. Someone, somewhere along the way relatively early probably (rightly) asked why Dracula was green, to which there is not and would never have been a satisfactory answer. The Monster's coloring at least would have a modicum of logic to it. This is why I believe the Dracula ads were corrected relatively early, while the Monster's were not (though some ads did get it right.)

[hedrap]

I'd love to weigh in on this, but I just don't have the stamina. Have at it, gents.

This.

I spent a decade shooting/dark rooming 16mm b/w, chromatic, kodachrome etc...I got around a decade of applied makeup effects. Here we go...

Pierce designed for Lugosi. That was based on Der Golem. Lugosi hated makeup effects, so he wanted more of a theatrical application. The hard edged and stiffness to Frank came from Lugosi mimicing the Golem. James Whale was a man of the theater who fell into film directing. Whale was about stagecraft. When Lugosi left and Karloff came on board, Whale got involved with redesigning the monster. The stiffness, edges and grey/white look - originally intended - went away to illicit more tragedy.

Pierce then changed the makeup to a bluish-grey so the lighting and cameras would get the makeup effect Whale wanted, which was a monstrous effect for the stagecraft that could be translated onto film. So the creature was white on film because he had no other projection color palette to choose from that would evoke "undead" for the audience. I mean, Whale could have made him tar black but by the time he jumped on, Pierce had laid the groundwork heavily established by Bela. As the design was tinkered with, so was the shades to achieve what Whale wanted. The camera and lighting crew did the same adjustments.

The film emulsions changed from Chaney Sr to Pierce. It even changed throughout the 30's. Whale was trying to serve two masters; stage and screen. He was not a technical director like we know today. He would have chafed at a Predator in a redscreen suit interacting with the talent.

[Liu Bei]

This.

Pierce then changed the makeup to a bluish-grey so the lighting and cameras would get the makeup effect Whale wanted.

I've never heard of the makeup being blue before. What is your source for this? As a long time fan of the Universal Monster movies, I've never encountered this story before. All the people I've spoken with, including film historian Rudy Behlmer, have confirmed the fact that the makeup was green, and was done intentionally to give the Monster his ash white/grey appearance in the film. I never knew this fact was even in question. It's mentioned everywhere from Jack Pierce himself in Famous Monsters of Filmland, DVD/Blu-Ray commentaries, and on down to film websites like IMDB.com.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0021884/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv

https://bureau42.com/view/1953/the-monster-legacy-dvd-gift-set-frankenstein

I think the blue/grey makeup you are referring to was what was used on Glenn Strange in House of Frankenstein. Pierce referred to his makeup both as a grey green and blue green in interviews, but never (as far as I know) as blue grey.

The only quote I could find on short notice from Pierce is one he gave to the New York Times in 1939: "I covered Karloff's face with blue-green greasepaint, which photographs gray."

We can start quibbling over what exact shade of green the makeup was, but there is no doubt that it was intended for the Monster to show up on film to the audience as ash white/grey. I hope that argument can at least be put to bed.

[sprytel]

How do you reconcile your theory with the fact that when Universal released the original movie, they produced a limited number of green-tinted prints? They called it "the color of fear". It would seem to suggest that the poster artwork depicting the monster as green was not some "marketing mistake" that somehow stuck...

[MIB41]

Sarah Karloff has been like a grandmother to many of us at Wonderfest, so I'll throw in what has been shared with me over the past 20 plus years. Regarding the Son of Frankenstein “test footage”… Sarah first revealed that at Wonderfest before it was edited and transferred to DVD for the public.

Here’s the part that has been lost in translation. That came from her father’s private home movies which included allot of family moments that (for all the obvious reasons) were not intended for public consumption. Many of us on the staff were privileged (and trusted) to view that material in its raw form before she decided what to show the attending audience. This is NOT Universal’s actual test footage. That’s just a short hand description given to it because the studio was in the midst of color tests during the time of this filming.

Everything I have heard from either Sarah or others whom Wonderfest have had as guests that are students of this era, through either their profession as makeup artists or personal experience with Karloff himself, have stated a blue-green tone was utilized to achieve the cadaver appearance requested by James Whale in Frankenstein and Bride. There’s even been some who have stated a grayish-silver application was used for specific scenes to get the proper register with the lighting used.

What I will say regarding the Son of Frankenstein color footage is that makeup does not remotely register (to my eyes anyway) as having the kind of shading and facial detail that Frankenstein and Bride contained (even if I flipped it to B&W). And given that Universal was indeed color testing the monster would lead me to believe a different approach was taken to cater to a color palate and not what was used to satisfy a black and white variable in the first two films (with a measurably more artistic and accomplished director).

Son of Frankenstein is a very pedestrian film compared to the first two entries and perhaps the lackluster story inspired the studio to examine a gimmick like color to give it extra punch. Karloff did NOT like that film at all. He was more prop than character. So I would be hesitant to get behind Son of Frankenstein as evidence of anything that was utilized in the first two films by Whale. It’s the only movie team-up where Legosi actually carried the film over Karloff (in my humble opinion).

As far as "intent", I would point to the era they were in and suggest artistic licence to the creation process serviced black and white film, not the colored world that was not yet relevant. Did anyone care what Lon Chaney sounded like when he created Phantom of the Opera? Of course not. The needs of shooting a film and the expression taken from the marketing department were two entirely different worlds in the 30's. Given there are posters that show the monster in more than one tone, suggests there was some open interpretation granted since the film itself did not have to wrestle with those questions. As time went by Universal eventually embraced the green tone and added that to their color guide as merchandise became a factor to consider in the colored world. But for the first two films, I honestly don't think that was a consideration.

[Liu Bei]

How do you reconcile your theory with the fact that when Universal released the original movie, they produced a limited number of green-tinted prints? They called it "the color of fear". It would seem to suggest that the poster artwork depicting the monster as green was not some "marketing mistake" that somehow stuck...

Dracula was also released in a green tint (Kodak's "Verdante"). Tinted releases were common in the silent era, and carried over into some of the early talkies as well. Die Nibelungen (one of my all-time favorite films) was released with a sepia tint. It doesn't suggest anything in particular, other than maybe that some of you are clicking on the links I provided, specifically the IMDB one. So thank you for that. I enjoy the back-and-forth dialogue, and appreciate it when people take the time to read counter-responses.

[Liu Bei]

Sarah Karloff has been like a grandmother to many of us at Wonderfest, so I'll throw in what has been shared with me over the past 20 plus years. Regarding the Son of Frankenstein “test footage”… Sarah first revealed that at Wonderfest before it was edited and transferred to DVD for the public.

Here’s the part that has been lost in translation. That came from her father’s private home movies which included allot of family moments that (for all the obvious reasons) were not intended for public consumption. Many of us on the staff were privileged (and trusted) to view that material in its raw form before she decided what to show the attending audience. This is NOT Universal’s actual test footage. That’s just a short hand description given to it because the studio was in the midst of color tests during the time of this filming.

Everything I have heard from either Sarah or others whom Wonderfest have had as guests that are students of this era, through either their profession as makeup artists or personal experience with Karloff himself, have stated a blue-green tone was utilized to achieve the cadaver appearance requested by James Whale in Frankenstein and Bride. There’s even been some who have stated a grayish-silver application was used for specific scenes to get the proper register with the lighting used.

What I will say regarding the Son of Frankenstein color footage is that makeup does not remotely register (to my eyes anyway) as having the kind of shading and facial detail that Frankenstein and Bride contained (even if I flipped it to B&W). And given that Universal was indeed color testing the monster would lead me to believe a different approach was taken to cater to a color palate and not what was used to satisfy a black and white variable in the first two films (with a measurably more artistic and accomplished director).

Son of Frankenstein is a very pedestrian film compared to the first two entries and perhaps the lackluster story inspired the studio to examine a gimmick like color to give it extra punch. Karloff did NOT like that film at all. He was more prop than character. So I would be hesitant to get behind Son of Frankenstein as evidence of anything that was utilized in the first two films by Whale. It’s the only movie team-up where Legosi actually carried the film over Karloff (in my humble opinion).

As far as "intent", I would point to the era they were in and suggest artistic licence to the creation process serviced black and white film, not the colored world that was not yet relevant. Did anyone care what Lon Chaney sounded like when he created Phantom of the Opera? Of course not. The needs of shooting a film and the expression taken from the marketing department were two entirely different worlds in the 30's. Given there are posters that show the monster in more than one tone, suggests there was some open interpretation granted since the film itself did not have to wrestle with those questions. As time went by Universal eventually embraced the green tone and added that to their color guide as merchandise became a factor to consider in the colored world. But for the first two films, I honestly don't think that was a consideration.

Thank you for sharing that post, especially about Sarah Karloff.

I liked Son okay, and agree Bela upstaged Boris in that film.

[The Bat]

This was a most fascinating and enlightening read...thank you Gentleman.

[Capt_Kirk]

I am hoping they use the Bela likeness rights more than once. Igor, Murder Legendre would be two good ones.

Bela played Igor better than he did Dracula. What a wonderful job he did in that movie!