Star Wars The Last Jedi Discussion Spoiler Zone

[enyawd72]

Heck, well into the scripting stage of Empire Anakin was still not Darth Vader and had been killed by him just like Obi-Wan said.

That's not true at all and has been discussed. Vader was always intended to be Luke's father. The name Darth Vader actually means "dark father". That's no coincidence or accident. Also, when Luke asks Obi-Wan how his father died, Alec Guinness pauses and you can tell he's carefully choosing his words as to not reveal the whole truth to Luke. Alec Guinness was far too good an actor to have done that accidentally. No, the idea at least to have Vader be Luke's father was there from the beginning. Lucas didn't know if ANH would be a success or if he would get the chance to finish the story, but he damn well made sure the seeds were planted in case he did.

[Werewolf]

That's not true at all and has been discussed.

Leigh Brackett wrote the first draft of the Empire Strikes Back screen play. In that version Luke actually meets Anakin's Force ghost on Dagobah/bog world and not Obi-Wan. Also the original Star Killer drafts of Star Wars have a lot of differences from the final film. Check out the The Star Wars comic by Dark Horse based on Lucas' earlier drafts. Not only was Darth Vader not Luke's father he wasn't even the main bad guy.

[phil]

Leigh Brackett wrote the first draft of the Empire Strikes Back screen play. In that version Luke actually meets Anakin's Force ghost on Dagobah/bog world and not Obi-Wan. Also the original Star Killer drafts of Star Wars have a lot of differences from the final film. Check out the The Star Wars comic by Dark Horse based on Lucas' earlier drafts. Not only was Darth Vader not Luke's father he wasn't even the main bad guy.

I was going to mention Brackett's original script. In the first story outline for Empire, which Lucas wrote, Vader wasn't Luke's father.

[Werewolf]

I was going to mention Brackett's original script. In the first story outline for Empire, which Lucas wrote, Vader wasn't Luke's father.

Yep and the retconning of Darth Vader to Anakin really hurt Obi Wan as a character, in my opinion. Because originally everything he told Luke in SW was the absolute truth. Not to mention changing Luke and Leia to siblings makes some of the scenes in SW and Empire a little creepy. I adore the original trilogy but, to be totally honest, the continuity between the three films is little loose. I think Only the planned sequel Splinter of the Minds Eye is in one hundred percent continuity to the original SW film.

[jimbutsu]

I must say, it feels strange to love TLJ as much as I did, given the overwhelming backlash. I almost feel like there's something wrong with me for absolutely adoring it.

Don't put yourself through that. At this point it's equally embarrassing to like or not like the movie given how horrible some of the folks on both sides of the argument are behaving.
If you liked it- that's awesome! I didn't care for it nearly as much as I expected to, and I'm legitimately envious of people who did.

[enyawd72]

Guys...George Lucas himself has stated for the record, when he wrote ANH, he knew Vader was Luke's father. I mean...it's right there in his NAME. Darth Vader = Dark Father. It's not even a debate.

Whatever Leigh Brackett wrote is irrelevant. She either didn't know what Lucas' plan was, or she did and tried to change it.

[Gorn Captain]

The way I see it, the more people love TLJ, the more money it makes, the more chance we get at more SW. I didn't like this one, but am hopeful for what comes next.

[drquest]

The way I see it, the more people love TLJ, the more money it makes, the more chance we get at more SW. I didn't like this one, but am hopeful for what comes next.

Amen brother, I feel the same way.

I hope the Solo movie is good, but "I have bad feelings about it".

[CrimsonGhost]

Yeah, I don't know how much I believe what comes out of Lucas mouth. He "revises" things. A lot.

This article examines the Vader name.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2.../#114ce4d7605e

[Werewolf]

This article examines the Vader name.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2.../#114ce4d7605e

Thank you for posting that. I hope it lays to rest the "Dark Father" myth.

[Klosterheim]

Spoilers for The Last Jedi. Spoilers for all Star Wars Films.

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I love The Last Jedi.
It did seem to balance in with the other Star Wars movies.
The comedy was equal to The Force Awakens.
Funny stuff in 1977 is just going to appear different than 2017 comedy, because of 40 years of pop culture changes and tons of movies, years of catch phrases, changes in society, changes in technology, availability of TV Series and Movies.

Some moments might come across as borderline parody, sometimes they seem like Family Guy scenes, but they still fit in the Galaxy, especially if the animated Star Wars shows are factored into the equation.

It may be a bit odd that The Last Jedi seems also to be influenced by the Prequels, since Rogue One went for the Original Trilogy look and feel.

By the way, I always did think Han was different in Return of The Jedi, he was no longer low key like he used to be, seeming more agitated, more cocky, and more sarcastic to Chewy, but maybe that was from the Carbonation Sickness. Also, Ford seemed to carry a bit of Indy inside him, and sometimes was more Indiana Jones than Han Solo. Indy always stayed more with him than Han in all of Ford's characters.

I liked having mysterious characters, and The Emperor's Royal Guards were among the best, so to me, having a bunch of background characters is wonderful, and some of the more main characters can stay mysterious as well.

I wanted Rey to build her own Lightsaber, but maybe next time.

I went to the movie for Luke Skywalker and got so much more.

Plus, I feel that I don't need to prepare for a Thursday showing for IX, since Luke had his big moment. Satisfied.

And, who knows? No-one ever said that Force Ghosts can not return to Life by creating their mortal body again by using The Force.

Once all mysteries of The Force are unveiled, Luke becomes more powerful and more importantly, more knowledgeable and can do anything that The Force Laws will allow. That's what I think they should do in Episode IX, The Force is not finished with Luke as a pawn/knight of the great galactic holographic chess game of Lightness and Darkness, a Luke re-materializes in human form, constructs a new lightsaber and gets to work building a new Jedi World, at the same time throwing some subtle powers around in key moments to help break up The First Order.

I like the Canto Bite mission, because I really grew to enjoy casinos in movies and science-fiction/fantasy gambling dens have always been one of my favorite things! Like on Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9, when they have games of chance, but my love for outer space gambling goes back to Starbuck playing cards on Battlestar Galactica, and of course Buck Rogers playing a space station version of "21"!!!

And, as a Star Wars precedent there is Pod Racing betting in The Phantom Menace, a type of Sports Book in Attack of the Clones, and in The Empire Strikes back, Lando is a gambler, plus Han says, "I won her from you fair and square", or a a similar line quote as is well known to millions of people, referring to the Millennium Falcon.

Quick Example of things that at first seem out of place, Ewoks, too cute-too silly complaints, but I put that one down to trying to gain perception of the real world as a child, and of course, by me watching WWII war films in the early 1980's, short furry creatures in combat are going to seem silly, and at first not fit in with Laser Battles. Lots of G Rated war films and westerns in that time period, all that seriousness, then it becomes difficult to comprehend, at first, what Lucas was going for in Return of the Jedi.

Now, it's different, and these things just need getting used to, just like I am used to watching the Prequels now. They play a lot smoother now that I look for different things in the films, and balance out what I want from the movie.

I love Star Wars!!!

Thanks!

[Hedji]

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^ What a satisfying post. To paraphrase Luke, "Every word of what you just said is right."

[phil]

Argh! Messed this up and can't figure out how to delete the post. I'll try again.

[phil]

Thank you for posting that. I hope it lays to rest the "Dark Father" myth.

I agree. I hope this drives a stake into the heart of this myth.

[Earth 2 Chris]

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Finally got to see it yesterday, and I really enjoyed it. I stayed away from any spoiler threads, or discussions, but I heard the grumblings beginning to emerge. I just didn't want to know why until I saw it and decided for myself.

I agree that if Empire and Jedi were released today, both would be crucified by half of their diehard fanbase. Vader is Luke's Dad? Han and Leia are a thing and not Luke and Leia? Who is this Lando guy? The time discrepancies? And then the previously stated problems with Jedi.

I think this movie suffers with folks who had already written it in their heads. The mysteries of Snoke and Rey fully explored, Luke coming in and physically battling Kylo Ren and beginning the take-down of the First Order. None of this was ever promised, it was just assumed by a mass fan mentality. And since this film decided to turn a lot of that on it's head...backlash.

I found the film refreshing, and it played into criticisms on The Force Awakens. The stereotypical, Nazi-like Hux was made into a joke because he was seen as one in the last film. And the whole film kept swerving when you expected it to go in another direction, whereas TFA was raked over the coals for being too predictable and too much of a rehash of ANH.

I think sometimes people think Star Wars is a...deeper story than it really is as well. Characters meet and bond instantly in the original trilogy as well, and no one blinks. Because there's 40 years of comics and novels and toy play to fill in those gaps. But in the films themselves, its sometimes all very...surface. Finn and Rose connecting over 19 hours is really no different than Luke, Leia and Han doing the same.

Would I have rather seen Luke come in and flip around and take out some of those new AT-Ape things? Sure. But that would have been a bit cheesy and hard to sustain. The fact that Luke had attained a level of connection to the Force that he could be the hero in their darkest hour WITHOUT hacking and slashing away at his nephew showed just how awesome he really was, and that he had outgrown all that daring do of 30 years ago. Plus he did it from the other side of the galaxy!

I like Rey's parents being no one. I think it sends a powerful, positive message, that a hero can rise from anywhere. I hope her and Kylo are NOT siblings, because that would make Luke, Han and Leia all look pretty bad. There'd be no way to reconcile how some didn't know, why they left her on Jakku, and certainly Leia would have to know!

Snoke being taken out so easily? He's the Darth Maul of TLJ. I wasn't overly impressed with Snoke as fill-in Emperor anyway, and thought it gave the much more impressive Kylo Ren a win that we could get behind. Even if he lost that cred later by being a petulant man-child again when he ordered everyone to fire on Luke.

I'm still not sure about Luke momentarily thinking of killing Ben...but he wasn't really wrong, was he? I'm glad they softened it from Kylo's version of the story. Honestly I'm glad both Luke and Rey didn't stray into Dark Side territory, because I honestly feared it. My daughter would have been crushed if Rey had strayed. Oh, and I liked the muppet-like Yoda. And Frank Oz!

I have a friend who questioned why they didn't let General Ackbar be the hero who took out the Star Destroyer instead of Laura Dern, or why Lando wasn't the real code breaker (with Lobot) that Finn and Rose were looking for. I kind of agree with Lando, but while it's fun to see Ackbar, you aren't going to get much emotional depth out of that squid mask.

I look forward to seeing again. Obviously the fan ire isn't hurting it one bit at the box office. It will be interesting to see how this one is perceived in a couple of years, then 5, then 10, and so on.

Chris