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>the major reason for the plots of 1980 was MONEY.
True; and it's earlier time slot meant it HAD to meet a minimum level of edutainment. THAT'S what killed it: space scouts?!?!?! Er.....
>then it really turns into a cliche of "Star Trek" or "Star Wars" and characters like that have been way over-used.
Hmmmm.... aliens are interesting as long as you can keep coming up with nifty ones. I don't know if a show featuring "tough angry chick" and "grizzled old war vet who drinks too much" should worry so much about cliches.
That being said:
>Alot of terrific series have decided that space is devoid of alien life
I agree; and I don't think it's better to do it one way or another. But once you decide how you want to do it you gotta stick by your guns. AND deal with the consequences. A universe teeming with sentient life operates under some different paradigms than one without.
>The characters are very supportive of each other on BSG, although it's not always quite so obvious.
I dunno. There's a lot of standardization on the show. (And not just THIS one...) Characters will be at each others throats one episode and as soon as it's time for the dramatic scene they're all nice-nice. Too much plot driven emotion, and not enough character driven emotion. We never really get a good sense of WHY people do the stuff they do, and a lot of times it's pretty inconsitent. Sorta how every chick-flick has the female lead fight with the guy who ends up being Mr Right at first; and reconcile with him for the happy ending. I dunno about you guys; but if any woman treated ME the way Mr Right gets it in the average chick flick I'd be SOOOO out of there. But if it happened like that in the movie there'd be no movie. Same with shows like this. If I had to work with the new Starbuck I wouldn't feel the need to be particularly supportive when she had a tough go of things. I WOULD be tempted to punch her out a lot.
>If those episodes don't spark you or move you emotionally then I don't think there's a show out there you could find watchable. Perhaps that's the reason why shows like "Dancing with the Stars" are so popular.
Okay; THAT'S just mean. And spurious. But mostly mean..... *sniff*
>the whole "who's a cylon" thread has been a source of rich drama and intrigue right up to last season's brilliant finale
That's a lot of adjectives y'got there..... I dunno; yeah, the "who's a Cylon" thing is okay, but I think damned near every sci-fi series in the last ten years has featured this theme. Are they alien copies, robots, enemy agents....? A Queensryche album?
*In case you didn't get the last refrence: the album "The Warning" is the story of how the last war on Earth was stopped by a supercomputer that secretly replaced everyone with robot copies that didn't KNOW they were copies.
>When the classic cyclons appeared on Razor, I was really ticked they were CGI.
I've been told by friends who work in animation and film that the execs REALLY push the CGI, even though it's more expensive and time consuming than standard methods of production. We all figger it's 'cos they're working towards the day when CGI can be used instead of real actors. I fear that day. Movies will literally be "Plot A, Setting C, Characters 12, 133, 156."
*shudder*
Don C.Comment
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Please don't take this the wrong way CTC...
But what current shows do you find likeable? Have you become so jaded with sci-fi that nothing is going to impress you? A person can take any show and pick at it and find something in it that has been done before and will be done again. Like I said before, forget everything you know and just sit back and enjoy. Because outside of BSG, Lost and Heroes, there's not much on TV in the realm of "sci-fi". All that's left are countless reality shows, crime scene investigation shows and the occasional sitcom. I would rather watch a Sci-Fi show full of endless cliches over watching most of that garbage (although I actually like CSI).
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>Have you become so jaded with sci-fi that nothing is going to impress you?
I should explain that I'm NOT a sci-fi fan. It happens that a lot of stuff I like is sci-fi; but I don't seek it out. (Had a friend at the U who watched ONLY sci-fi shows... and she watched ALL of 'em no matter how stupid. Scared the hell outta me....) A problem I find with any specific genre is that it's usually written along very specific guidelines. And as soon as that happens I lose interest 'cos all you gotta do is realize who their target market is (which usually happens accidentally.... I don't do it on purpose) and you can predict pretty much everything that's gonna happen. It changes over time, but the pattern is usually very discernable. (LIke how a space fulll of aliens is kinda passe now.... until someone hits big with a show featuring zillions of aliens...)
What I DO like is surprises, and ideas I've never seen before. My problem with most stuff is that it's made to be "good" rather than cool; and "good" is usually pretty well defined. Stuff becomes puish button; and the current "educated" audience buys right into it, perpetuating the intellectual inbreeding.
>A person can take any show and pick at it and find something in it that has been done before and will be done again.
True; but there's a dif between doing somethiung that's been done and doing it a little differently; and me being able to give the lines BEFORE the characters on the show. Going with my previous point, NOBODY really puts their own spin on anything any more. It's more importnat to do it "right."
>But what current shows do you find likeable?
Hmmmm.... I don't watch too much any more. I like the Daily Show and Colbert Report; but they're probably not what you're getting at. I like Deathnote and Fullmetal Alchemist, and the Simpsons. Beyond that; not so much. I'll watch the news until it cheeses me off sometimes....
>Like I said before, forget everything you know and just sit back and enjoy.
Well... I don't dislike the new Galactica 'cos it's not like the old one; I dislike it 'cos I don't think it's a very good show.
>I would rather watch a Sci-Fi show full of endless cliches over watching most of that garbage
I'd rather read a book, go for a walk, or watch a disk rather than subject myself to either....
>(although I actually like CSI).
HAW! I used to like Law and Order; but I couldn't get into CSI. L&O was different 'cos it used to be about the case. The characters were secondary, which was fine 'cos they were the standard cop show characters. CSI kinda pretended their cast of characters were ACTUALLY characters and spent way too much time on their lives.
Don C.Comment
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On the same token. How many lead Latino actors have you previously seen before on television in the past?
Please, no Ricky Ricardos and Chico and the Man dudes, lol.
I'm ecstatic that a Mexican-American is playing a non-Mexican role and as a friggin' Admiral at that...I think that's awesome and about bloody time.
So just because it doesn't feature too many black actors is doesn't mean the show has been "whited" out...it's just a matter of perspective.sigpicComment
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Again, this show is not for the kiddies, it's for adults such as myself.
I don't want kids NEAR ME while watching this show, they are annoying and loud (I'm sure to you and other parents they are well-behaved).
Toys?
Oh come on now...spawn toys? Now that has to be a prerequisite for the show to be considered good? Toys?
Come on...
Old Battlestar Galactica...C-
New Battlestar Galactica A
...and I'm being nice here.
sigpicComment
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Well, in my opinion I don't think you can really compare the two shows at all really.
They are like apples and oranges. You are trying to compare a 70's made for network TV show against a current and state of the art TV show made for cable.
The first BSG series was a Star Wars clone plain and simple. Read any magazine from the 70's when Star Wars was first a hit and thats where the original BSG came from.
The three big networks all wanted a Star Wars of their own as soon as they saw how huge Star Wars the movie was. And for a TV show in the 70's with who and what it was aimed at, it did quite well accomplishing what the TV studio wanted, if for only a short time. Unfortunately with clones, more times than not the novelty wears off rather quickly, especially if the stories and characters don't continue to develop and grow keeping the audience interested. The special effects were state of the art for the time, but that can only carry a show for only so long. History has shown that more times than not, if the story is good and the characters well written, those positives can carry the show even when the effects are not that great.
Now many years later and a lot more sci-fi both on TV and in the movie theaters later the creaters and writers for the new BSG have a lot of big advantages of how to write for current sci-fi for a weekly TV series. The audience these days want less bubble gum space fantasy and more grittier characters and deeper more complex stories. Yes the effects these days on any show are great, but as we all know, especially with CGI, incredible effects are very easy to come by allowing just about anyone with some cash to have great looking effects. It's the stories and the characters that now better define what is good sci-fi and what is not, especially on TV.
So as I mentioned earlier, other than creating an interesting debate, it really is unfair to try and compare the two. Except for the names and places, they are both so totally different from each other in so many ways.Last edited by wyldpny; Mar 21, '08, 10:15 PM.Capt. Kirk: "Is there anyone on this ship, who even remotely, looks like Satan?"
Mr. Spock: "I am not aware of anyone who fits that description, Captain"
Capt. Kirk: "No, Mr. Spock, I didn't think you would be"Comment
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I've been watching the Season 3 DVDs, just wanted to give a heads up that nearly every episode has some very good deleted scenes. One of the episodes has 25 minutes added to it "Unfinished Business" - this was the boxing match episode. The DVD contains the original aired episode, plus the new cut with the additional footage.
Another stand-out deleted scene is where Starbuck confronts the cylon Leoben who held her prisoner for four months on "New Caprica". This was cut from the episode "A Measure of Salvation" where the cylons are dying from the beacon they found.
I'm finally learning all the names of the Cylons so far, they rarely say what their names are on the show, but if you watch it with subtitles it says the name of who's talking:
Caprica - the blonde chick (6 Series)
D'Anna - Lucy Lawless (3 Series)
Doral - the clean cut looking guy (was the reporter in the mini series)
Simon - the black scientist
Leoben - the blond guy who imprisoned Starbuck
Brother Cavil - Dean Stockwell
Sharon/Boomer/Athena - No actual cylon name has been given yet (probably because she's been called by three different names so far). But it appears that none of those are her actual name. In one of the deleted scenes D'Anna says to her "You are the one they called "Boomer" She replies "that was my call sign". D'Anna hands her the baby Hera and she replies again "That was Sharon's baby". Sorry if this is a little bit of a spoiler! I just wanted to pass along the info in case you were wondering about some of their names.Comment
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>more grittier characters and deeper more complex stories.
Hmmmm.... this comes up a lot, and I think I'm outa synch on something.
So; when people refer to "deper characters" WHAT exactly makes a character deep?
Don C.Comment
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I've got to say the first one,its just something about having toys that you can play with will watching the show.The effects may not be as good ,but that like comparing an older car to a newer one.Theres always improvements.But a classic is still classic.
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It's the dynamics and personality of the character, how they interact with other characters, their backstory and motivations, their emotional response to situations they are in, their believability, their likability, how well their strengths and weaknesses are portrayed.
Take the character Baltar for instance. In the original series you really don't know much about him other than he was once a friend of Adama's, but turned traitor when he started working for the cylons. That's it. The viewer has no idea what he did, why he did it etc. All we know is that the other characters called him a "traitor" and we're supposed to just go along with that perception. There's no dimension.
In the current series Baltar has very distinct character traits. He's considered to be a one of the greatest minds in their society, a genius. He is also very self-absorbed, selfish, cowardly, ruled by his own lust, sexual urges and desires. He is a liar. He is full of pride and ego. He's very good at playing upon people, making them feel pity towards him so he ends up looking like the victim. He is the "seven deadly sins" all wrapped up in one person.
It is a popular belief that most genius' have a certain degree of insanity about them. This characteristic is played quite heavily on the current show, due to his constant talking to the cylon Caprica Six in his mind. While she "might" be quite real to Baltar, nobody else can see who he's talking to, so they look at him very much as being a crazy person. We learn that he is very infatuated with Caprica and would do anything for her. She used him so that the Cylons could attack and destroy the planet. Baltar appears to show little remorse for the part he played in that. Rather than doing the noble thing of admitting what he did, he goes out of his way to bury the lie even deeper. The viewer has a greater perception of why he is not likeable.Comment
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>He is the "seven deadly sins" all wrapped up in one person.
Hmmmm.... the problem is, we STILL don't know WHY. The New Baltar isn't really all that more fleshed out than the old because he existis in a certain emotional state but we have very little idea as to why. And not just in terms of some event that set him on this road, but what it was about HIM that made him choose the path he did.
>We learn that he is very infatuated with Caprica and would do anything for her.
But again, why? (Other than she's a hot chick.) SHE was the main thing about the new show that cheesed me off, because she's completely a plot device. She's there to TELL the audience what's going on (and writhe) rather than the writers SHOW you what's going on. Having her live in baltar's head and making him infatuated with her is kind of a nice touch but it's more a plot point thatn a character point.
It's a tricky thing; balancing the whole character bit. I can offer an example (that I think most of you folks may have seen) as to how I figger the character thing should be done. The movie "Pitch Black." For me a good story gives you all the answers. Maybe not directly, but if you think about it the explanation is there. So, in Pitch Black:
-You got Riddic, the evil, criminal bad guy. Ultimately he's come to terms with being "evil." Even though we don't know exactly what he did, we do know he's not a nice person. But he's okay with that.
-He doesn't like the cop. At first it seems like the standard cop/crook dichotomy, but it makes sense 'cos the cop represents society. Society which Riddic doesn't consider himself a part of. PLUS we find out the cop is crooked, but makes a lot of effort to hide the fact. Which is why Riddic REALLY deriedes him. He's a crook TOO; but lacks the stones to accept who he is, like our anti-hero.
-The young girl admires Riddic. Why? She's obviously displeased with herself 'cos she's pretending to be a guy. Riddic doesn't fit in either, but he's BAD enough that he CAN be his real self and there's nothing anyone can do about it. He in turn seems to have some affection for her too. Does he feel responsible for her (not likely, given the next situation) or does she stoke his ego?
-He defintiely likes the captain, to the point that this ultimate bad guy actually goes back to SAVE her. Out of character? NO, 'cos he's actually in love with her. (Which is why he's stalking her after they crash.) Why? He says so after discovering she was gonna eject the crew pod to save herself. "You're just like me." He's found someone that he feels a kinship for. So ultimately going back for her is STILL a selfish act.
-The merchant guy is a knob. We're actually HAPPY when he dies.
-The pilgrims are the only decent people on the whole ship, and when they die we're NOT happy. But they serve an important purpose: when the only decent people in the team die, nobody else is real upset for them. They're more concerned for THEMSELVES. Shows what a bunch of selfish jerks everyone else really is. Which is important, cos the plot only works if you realize the crew ARE selfish jerks. The entire story is character driven 'cos the events occur because of the desires of the crew. (The plot is pretty standard; but the characters are entwined into it a little more than most monster flicks.)
THAT'S how you do the character thing. Nobody slips out of character, the plot progresses BECAUSE of who they are, and the events of the story DEMONSTRATE their personalities. Very few stories do that. They LOOK like they do; but like I said about characters being supportive when it's the supportive episode (OR my prior example of Mr Right in every chick flick.... it's not just sci-fi that has problems) they'll do inappropriate things because the story requires it.
Don C.Comment
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