J.J. Talks Trek Sequel-Shatner & Khan?

[The Bat]

The Fans weren't the only ones upset about Kirk's death in that Movie....Shatner later said that he "regreted letting them kill Kirk off...and didn't realize how much that Character had come to mean to him". Hence the reason he wrote three Books bringing Kirk back.

[huedell]

>Taking THAT into consideration, having Kirk die with Picard looking on
was a tough pill to swallow and another reason to be displeased
with Kirk's death scene.

THAT'S a good point too; and it puts me in mind of the discussion I was trying to start a while back: just how much/when/why should a fan be outraged about something "bad" happening, and how much should they accept? I find nowadays way too many folks expect to be completely pandered to, to the point that they'll pan stuff that's dramaticly appropriate. Sometimes feeling bad about what happens is a part of the story...

That was my gut reaction to the overall negative fan reaction over Kirk's death....but it seems to be not as important a reaction as it should be---
I can be perplexed about that OR I could take a lesson in what
apparently works onscreen DRAMATICALLY and what doesn't.

[huedell]

I'll tell you this when I watch TWOK It still chokes me up to watch Spock die,and I already know he is coming back in three.When I watch Kirk die in generations it makes me sick that it feels so wrong.He was out of character and pathetic.I do however really like your idea about dieing kirk hobbling over to the enterprise and dieing there, on top of the saucer just under the enterprise sign.Now that would have been classic and befitting of kirk.

Not Oooohhhhh.....*....*...plhhhh

Your leaning towards my quickfix idea of Kirk dying near TNG's Enterprise
....interesting...in theory they might've been able to that
by beaming him back to the ship, or shuttling him back to the ship
(that is if Crusher didn't have the means to save him as they
remain there stranded for that period in time)

Since I'm not that affected by the way Kirk died, I can't really speak
for myself, but I wonder, IF he would have died in the presence
of the TNG ship and it's crew...just how would've overall fan reaction
have been?

[fallensaviour]

Well, it's just as I suspected.

now that I've read an official take on all this,
I know that I don't buy this as good enough reasoning.

I think it's absolutely wild that those thousands of
Trek fans that have expressed displeasure with how
Kirk died in GENERATIONS would use metaphors
like "falling off a stepladder".

"A whole ship at risk" in TWOK as opposed to, like a BILLION
people on that nearby planet in GENERATIONS...and TWOK's
Spock death is the winner...more heroic, way more over Kirk's passing???

Maybe in GENERATIONS Kirk should have hobbled into the wreckage
of RIKER/PICARD's Enterprise to die and that would have worked better
"dramatically"? Nah, I don't buy it

I'll tell you this when I watch TWOK It still chokes me up to watch Spock die,and I already know he is coming back in three.When I watch Kirk die in generations it makes me sick that it feels so wrong.He was out of character and pathetic.I do however really like your idea about dieing kirk hobbling over to the enterprise and dieing there, on top of the saucer just under the enterprise sign.Now that would have been classic and befitting of kirk.

Not Oooohhhhh.....*....*...plhhhh

[Goblin19]

Nimoy was essential to the story. They figured out a way to connect with the old fans and, besides, he was wonderful in it. Mike, I can't figure out if your tongue is slightly in your cheek or not. It's a really good movie. it's a shame you aren't open to giving it a chance.

[ctc]

>Do we ALWAYS "disagree" on stuff?

HAW! It's happened once or twice....

>I'd bet that we don't disagree ALL the time.

See; you're disagreeing about disagreeing. Thus opening a dimensional warp, wherein our future selves come back in time to redirect the conversation.

And we both end up being played by different people. (I wanna be Don Rickles. We've already got the same haircut.)

>Taking THAT into consideration, having Kirk die with Picard looking on
was a tough pill to swallow and another reason to be displeased
with Kirk's death scene.

THAT'S a good point too; and it puts me in mind of the discussion I was trying to start a while back: just how much/when/why should a fan be outraged about something "bad" happening, and how much should they accept? I find nowadays way too many folks expect to be completely pandered to, to the point that they'll pan stuff that's dramaticly appropriate. Sometimes feeling bad about what happens is a part of the story. (Would Roy Fokker die if Macross was made nowadays?)

Don C.

[Megotu]

Well I hope they get Keanu Reeves to play Khan. And Gilbert Gottfried could do the voice for his CGI evil monkey sidekick.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Another theory would be that they wanted to play up the "hammy" side
of Shatner and not particulalry focus on KIrk.

I kind of felt it WAS a bit like that. The TNG guys seemed convinced that their Star Trek was best, and they may have made Kirk an old cornball to help Picard look better, and more viable as the franchise's main character. Nowadays TNG episodes look just as dated (in many cases, much more so) than TOS episodes. And they definitely aren't as fun.


Chris

[huedell]

I read that originally, Dr. Sauron shot Kirk in the back and killed him. Test audiences were upset,so Shat, Stewart and McDowell had to come back in for reshoots. And the "stepladder" death was what they came up with for them. It was pretty lame.

I'm not surprised that that much effort was put into figuring out
how to make Kirk's death the best it could be...it's unfortunate so many were
unhappy with it in the end despite their effort.

Thanks for the trivia though---I had no idea...it's very interesting

I
Kirk is grossly out of character in that movie anyway. At least after he's in "the ribbon". He comes across as some old dandy, not the macho space cowboy of old.

I have no idea why exactly they decided to make him like that...my first
thought it was supposed to be a "Hey, I'm savoring the ribbon's magic."
coolheaded-type attitude that conflicted and contrasted with Picard's
sense of duty--- and urgency.

Another theory would be that they wanted to play up the "hammy" side
of Shatner and not particulalry focus on KIrk.

I'd prefer to think it was my first theory

[Earth 2 Chris]

I read that originally, Dr. Sauron shot Kirk in the back and killed him. Test audiences were upset,so Shat, Stewart and McDowell had to come back in for reshoots. And the "stepladder" death was what they came up with for them. It was pretty lame.

Kirk is grossly out of character in that movie anyway. At least after he's in "the ribbon". He comes across as some old dandy, not the macho space cowboy of old.

Chris

[huedell]

As I said in my post; realistically, Kirk's death is the "winner" (he saves the universe), while Spock's death (for me) wins it in the "cinema drama" category (as it was written as a movie scene). Kirk's death scene was poorly written, to me.....

And apparently to many other's as well.
I think one of the reasons was people's huge attachment to Kirk
---and it'd be hard to write just the right thing.

Don, made me think of something too...I think on a conscious or
unconscious level, a lot of old school fans weren't very happy with TNG
becoming the focus as far as Trek movies go. I think some'd
even have preferred "no movies" to any TNG movies.

Taking THAT into consideration, having Kirk die with Picard looking on
was a tough pill to swallow and another reason to be displeased
with Kirk's death scene.

And from now on, I'll just refrain from entering another debate. When you disagree about everything, sometimes it's best to let it be....

Hmmmmm??? I guess I'm missing something here.

Have we had other debates?
I kinda forget past debate pretty quickly.

Do we ALWAYS "disagree" on stuff?
I'd bet that we don't disagree ALL the time.

You know it's up to you whether you want to reply to my posts,
but please don't take my posts as some of kind of dastardly attack...
I'm just speaking my mind on Star Trek for cripes' sakes.

[Gorn Captain]

[QUOTE=huedell;327025I think it's absolutely wild that those thousands of
Trek fans that have expressed displeasure with how
Kirk died in GENERATIONS would use metaphors
like "falling off a stepladder".

"A whole ship at risk" in TWOK as opposed to, like a BILLION
people on that nearby planet in GENERATIONS...and TWOK's
Spock death is the winner...more heroic, way more over Kirk's passing???

[/QUOTE]

As I said in my post; realistically, Kirk's death is the "winner" (he saves the universe), while Spock's death (for me) wins it in the "cinema drama" category (as it was written as a movie scene). Kirk's death scene was poorly written, to me.

And from now on, I'll just refrain from entering another debate. When you disagree about everything, sometimes it's best to let it be....

[samurainoir]

I don't think Shatner's best days are necessarily behind him, and he does have a career beyond just Star Trek.

His emmy award winning appearances on The Practice and the few episodes of Boston Legal I caught during the first season were awesome.

Why does it have to be Kirk or nothing with Shatner?

I personally would love to see him embody a character that is reflective of the song "Trying", his collaboration with Ben Folds. I think there was some real emotional weight behind his regrets that he could tap into with a character like that.
YouTube - That's Me Trying

I bet he would relish a meaty non-Trek Villian role as well.

[Riffster]

I dson't see how they could use Kirk as this story was told because Vulcans live alot longer. I mean sure they had Mcoy on the pilot of Next Generation but It'd be odd to see them use Kirk that way too. plus when Spock was to0 go back in time it was even more in the futrue then his appearence with Picard yes?

[ctc]

>I think it's absolutely wild that those thousands of Trek fans that have expressed displeasure with how Kirk died in GENERATIONS would use metaphors like "falling off a stepladder".

A friend of mine, who's a huge Trekkie described it a lot like that. He thought it was kinda sad that a guy who'd fought off alien empires, godlike beings and the laws of physics was squished by a girder. I think a lot of folks would have been happy if he'd gone down swinging instead.

Fun Fact: This was also the friend who left the premier of the film, walked along the line waiting for the next show and yelled "Oh man, I can't believe they killed off Picard like that!"

Good times, good times....

Don C.