Do prequels rob us of our memories and imagination ?

[MIB41]

Well to be a "casual" fan your passion of argument is undermining your claim. But back to the topic at hand. These are science fiction tales. From your perspective, if you like one installment, you need to like all of them, otherwise your simply in denial. Not so. People pick and choose what they like. I like the first Jaws, but no one could give me a free copy of Jaws IV. I like Rocky I, II, & III but have little use for IV or V. Then Stallone made Rocky Balboa and I was blown away by that. So Star Wars, unfortunately, falls victim to these same rules.

Only DIEHARDS push you to care for all product in a series. CASUAL fans pick and chose. Your a diehard but don't like the suggestion, as if it's demeaning to you. It's not. At least not from my vantage point. Enjoy these movies and revel in them. It's okay. But remember the slippery slope you ride in discussing artistic virtues in these films. What you may consider "aimed at kids", I might suggest "shrewd marketing". What you think is a George Lucas 'creation', I might know the guy who created that and Lucas picked it from his offerings. But because my friend was an employee of ILM, all of his ideas were immediate property of Lucas unlimited. And of course there are all of the wonderful stories of the ideas Lucas didn't take. So perspective is everything here.

Also, while your busy patting Lucas on the back for every theatrical invention known to man, remember his marketing starts with himself. So when you watch these "behind the scenes" bonanzas and think your somehow intimately involved in the 'creation' process, your not. Those are just as carefully calculated and contrived as the toys on the shelves. What Lucas is brilliant at is ownership of properties. When he built his ranch, that became the centerpiece for new ideas which HE took owership of because those people were employed by him. He didn't invent them and often times wasn't even the catalyst for any of those at the earliest stages. But he was smart enough to know this would be the future of movies and he deserves every dime he got for being shrewd enough to capture that cornerpeice of the market. But the ideas you credit him for often come from his employees and people you never get to see. They'll bring ideas to him and he'll say, "Yeah, let's put that in there" and you, the fan, immediately default it all to the marketing myth known as the "genuis of Lucas"...nonsense. So singing his praises, such as you do, only reassures Lucas you'll be in line to buy his next gimmick as well. So, love the movies and enjoy the silliness, but let's not roll out the red carpet and give Lucas' self-promotion a galactic medal of honor as well, please?

[darklord1967]

Well.... you seem to ascribe negative reasons as to why people didn't like the new films; stuff like a predetermined bias, a modern cynnical view of the warm and funny.... stuff like that. It's also possible that people GENUINELY disliked it.

It would be cynical for me to assert that all the people who did not like STAR WARS prequels were cynical.

However, I did not do that.

Read my posts again. What you'll see is that I stated the opinion that some of the attacks hurled against the STAR WARS prequels came from a new modern cynical sensibility within our culture that somehow FORGAVE many of these very same aspects featured in the OT.

one of the most POIGNANT and PIVOTAL scenes in Episode I featured Binks:

But that scene could have happened with ANY of the characters. It wasn't neccessarily JarJar that could have delivered the lines. Anni could have, or one of the Jedi. All characters one would expect to have the purity of spirit required for an impartial observation.

The point is, the scene happened with Jar-Jar Binks... not someone else.
The point is, he was NOT just silly and corny in EVERY single scene he appeared in as you initially stated.

Gungans not dying without a fight.

'Course that almost sounds antagonistic.

Or proud. I think it's "antagonistic" to attack something or someone un-provoked (as the Nemoidians did when their droid armies invaded Naboo, herded its citizens into concentration camps, and began killing them off... all under Darth Sidious's instructions.

Stating that one will not go down without a fight in the face of such un-provoked atrocity is NOT antagonistic... it is self-respect, and self preservation.

our culture is experiencing a "dumbing-down" of UN-PRECEDENTED proportions due to this rampant cynicism.

....uh.... Okay.... this is kinda veering a bit.

No, this is not veering. It all relates.

I don't think the "dumbing down" is new. At all. I think it's easy to see it as such, because when we look back at the "good ol' days" we do so with the eyes of a child who was sheltered and cared for. Subsequently, it's easy to look at "now" as some sort of horrid travesty because we're so much more aware of how things actually work. But I don't think that horrible stuff is new; just maybe new to us. And it's easy to pan the younger generation 'cos they do stuff that seems weird and offensive to us. Consequently, it's easy to forget that WE did stuff that our elders thought was weird and offensive. Sex, violence, disturbing fashion.... it's not new.

No. Much of what I'm pointing to is an ABSOLUTELY NEW condition in our culture (relatively speaking) .

Prior to about 1988 or so, there was no such thing as metal detectors in schools.

Prior to advent of the internet, we were reasonbly certain that our children were safe from harm when they were home with us. With the advent of on-line technology, this is simply not true anymore.

Prior to 1999, there had not been a mass-school shooting / suicide conducted in any of our high schools by any of our young people. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold ushered-in an ALL-NEW terrifying phenomenon on that spring day in Littleton, CO when they conducted that massacre at Columbine High School. There have since been COUNTLESS school shootings that simply do not get press.

I could go on forever on this. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

That "Exorcist" audience knew EXACTLY what they were watching.

But there's a difference between "knowing" and "empathising." For most people it's easy to dismiss a film that's really old "'cos the effects aren't good" 'cos it doesn't register with the template they carry around as to what IS good. And it's that template you have to connect with to get a reaction from the audience. Sync with the WRONG things and they'll react completely opposite to what you want. I know a lot of folks who bawl their eyes out when the aunt of a character in a chick-flick dies, but can't make that jump during the first Star Wars when Luke's aunt and uncle die just because the film has spaceships in it. And it's not cynnicism; it's that they have different buttons to push. (Kinda how a lot of sci-fi fans can't get choked up by the aunt in the chick-flick 'cos it's just one of them overwrought chick-flicks....) I could see the Exorcist having a similar effect 'cos we all KNOW demonic posession involves creepy images seen in morrors and weird CGI twisty effects in the background. Not cheesy facial appliances and fake puke. Most of the modern audience probaly couldn't get past that point to the REAL point of the film. Same way a lot of people don't get choked up when someone dies in a 50's monster movie. It doesn't register as "that dude's dead!" it's more like "hey, he got attacked by a puppet!"

Fair enough. I only maintain that there was a general greater awareness and compassion for human suffering years ago. It is a condition that is diminishing due to our increasing dis-connectedness. I don't say this based on the view I have of my youth through rose-colored glasses. Instead. I say this based on my observations of historical facts, and from the anecdotes and impressions expressed to me from previous generations.

There was a time in this country when young people did not DARE get out of line... even if their parents were not watching. Why? Because "Mrs. Smith" down the street was watching, even if your parents were NOT. And if you got out of line and she saw you, your parents were SURE to be informed, and you may have gotten whacked (spanked) later on at home.

The notion that "it takes an entire village to raise a child" was the standard of child-rearing that our society lived by. Not so much anymore. It's nearly gone.

Dicipline of young people has somehow become such a dirty word in our culture that the young have less and less guidelines to abide by.

Kids are being given more and more and more choices, while adults are being given less, and less. Disipline your kid "too harshly" these days and you may end up in jail. There are kids actually SUING their parents in court these days! Incredible!!

We've got adults now "negotiating" with children as if they were little adults. This is so preposterous that it might even be funny if it weren't so dangerous.

Come to think of it, George Lucas once said the exact same thing in an interview.

Meanwhile, an entire generation of greedy, self-absorbed, and self-involved barbarians are emerging that do not even know how to say "please" or "thank you"... people who have ZERO social skills...

And what's the result of all this? It is all slowly headed toward anarky.

I worked for YEARS in child care all throughout the 1990's. For the last 4 years I have worked in the Public School system (junior HS and HS level). I've seen this stuff up close.

No, I'm sorry Don. But while you make some valid points about certain social ills not being a new thing, quite a few of the ones we're currently experiencing are... UNPRECEDENTED, in fact.

>Seeing things in the "coarsest of terms" is yet another example of this pervading modern cynicism that I despise so much.

There it is again! There are all sorts of reasons people do this; sometimes they don't pay that much attention, or just aren't that into movies, or just don't get what's going on.... It doesn't HAVE to be cynnicism.

The very DEFINITION of cynicism is "... seeing everything in life through the coarsest of terms...", having contempt for everything, and caring for nothing.

>and he was an impressive, powerful, beautiful-looking young man.

He was 10.

You're being glib. And you know that. Padme Amidala fell in love with Anakin Skywalker, NOT when he was ten, but when he was " ...an impressive, powerful, beautiful-looking young man..." of 20.

>if you hear Obi's apeech BEFORE he left Anakin---it's
about as direct and informing and emotional as you can get


Oh, I agree. "But you were the CHOSEN ONE!!!!" And then he leaves. While Anni is still twitching. THAT'S the part that seemed odd to me. Why just leave him? Wouldn't you maybe try to save him, or put him out of his misery, or at least stay with him 'til he was gone?

You minimized Obi-Wan Kenobi's outreach to Anakin just so that you could make your point.

The fact is, prior to that terrible duel, Kenobi tried DESPERATELY to reach his former padawan while they stood on that landing platform of Mustafar. He tried DESPERATELY to reason with him even though Skywalker had murdered younglings... even though he Force choked Padme and may have seriously injured her... even though he now stood before Kenobi as an engine of hatred and rage that bore VERY LITTLE resemblance to the boy he raised, trained, and loved.

When he could not reach Anakin, he sadly drew his blade and resigned himself to face off against Darth Vader. But it broke his heart. "I will do what I must."

Later after Anakin was defeated and helpless, Kenobi did NOT just shout "You were the Chosen One!!!", and then walked away.

He was virtually in TEARS as he looked down at the promise... the hope... the champion of the galaxy... now reduced to this monstrosity by his own selfish hand:

KENOBI: It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them!! Bring balance to The Force not leave it in darkness!! You were my brother, Anakin!! I LOVED you!!

When Darth Vader then burst into flames before his very eyes and screamed HATRED at Kenobi, it was probably more than he could take emotionally, and he turned away.

I don't think that standing there and watching that boy scream in agony as he burned alive was something that anyone with compassion could do.

Look, Lord knows I'm not Obi-Wan Kenobi's biggest fan. I think he and the jedi council made a lot of mistakes with Anakin Skywalker that partially set the stage for that kid's terrible fate. And then years later he tried to put a "spin" on his recounting of these events that was designed to absolve him of some of his own guilt. And he did this with some of the characteristic emotional detachment which you allude to.

However, in this instance on Mustafar, Kenobi tried every decent thing he could... he gave Anakin every chance to avoid this terrible fight... he even provided Anakin with warning to avoid his terrible disfigurement. (Re: It's over Anakin! I have the high ground!! Don't try it!)

I simply do not see Kenobi's walking away from a defeated Anakin as cold... not taking the full context of that battle into account.

[Mikey]

I simply do not see Kenobi's walking away from a defeated Anakin as cold...

Are you talking about the end of ROTS when Anakin was burned ?

Yea, I hated that too.

Obi should have finished him off.

Everything bad that happened after ROTS was actually Obi's fault for not being a man.

[darklord1967]

Well to be a "casual" fan your passion of argument is undermining your claim.

I never said I was a "casual" STAR WARS fan. YOU just said that.

I said I loved STAR WARS, but did not "need" it... not in the way you claim diehard fans to "need" it (Re: like air to breathe)

[But back to the topic at hand. These are science fiction tales. From your perspective, if you like one installment, you need to like all of them, otherwise your simply in denial.

Nope. Nice try. I never said that either. What I said was:

A) There are people who call themselves "STAR WARS fans" who only like one or two of the movies, and HATE all the rest. I find that puzzling. What I mean by that is if I only liked The Empire Strikes Back (for example) and none of the other films, then I'd likely consider myself an "Empire fan" and not necessarily a fan of the STAR WARS Saga.

B) Many of the critiques hurled against the Prequels are aspects shared by the OT.

Only DIEHARDS push you to care for all product in a series. CASUAL fans pick and chose. Your a diehard but don't like the suggestion, as if it's demeaning to you. It's not.

You're reaching. I don't consider it demeaning. I don't demand that others agree with me. But I will point out what I consider to be the flaws in someone's argument during a debate.

I do not "push" anyone to care for all the product of a series. I really couldn't care less. Ultimately it does not affect MY enjoyment of the films.

At the same time, though, I've been forced to endure the dreary yammering on by many folks who tell me what a "criminal" George Lucas is for making the "horrible" prequel films. And I have to listen to this droning from folks who are wearing Jar-Jar Binks T-Shirts, went to see ALL of the prequel films multiple times at the cineplex, and who own the DVDs in their library.

It's a waste of my time debating with someone like that. That is what I was referring to.

I've never encountered anyone on this message board that fits that description. But on some other message boards, those pinheads are everywhere!

But remember the slippery slope you ride in discussing artistic virtues in these films.

It's not a "slippery slope" to me at all.

Also, while your busy patting Lucas on the back for every theatrical invention known to man, remember his marketing starts with himself. So when you watch these "behind the scenes" bonanzas and think your somehow intimately involved in the 'creation' process, your not.

I don't believe I'm intimately involved in the creation process. Never said that. But I do know enough to know that at the very least, the general story concepts behind each STAR WARS film came from George Lucas. And despite the fact that some of his ideas were not popular with fans or were not "marketable", he moved forward with them anyway to tell the story HE wanted to tell. To me, that's integrity.

That was my point to answer your charge of his merchandise "whoring" of every thing attached to the Saga.

What Lucas is brilliant at is ownership of properties. When he built his ranch, that became the centerpiece for new ideas which HE took owership of because those people were employed by him. He didn't invent them and often times wasn't even the catalyst for any of those at the earliest stages.

And exactly how do YOU know this? Were you there in the room when others came up with these ideas for the advancement / preservation of the medium and he simply took the ideas as his own?

You know, when Charlie Rose interviewed Lucas on his program about 6 years ago, He talked about the film maker's quiet passions and contributions to the advancement of the film industry.

Lucas seemed quite un-comfortable with the accolades. He dismissively remarked that years from now when he is long gone, and they look through all the archives in the key milestones in the advancement of the film industry, he's quite certain that he may be nothing more than a "... brief footnote...". He said he doesn't believe that he deserves any more notice than that.

So singing his praises, such as you do, only reassures Lucas you'll be in line to buy his next gimmick as well. So, love the movies and enjoy the silliness, but let's not roll out the red carpet and give Lucas' self-promotion a galactic medal of honor as well, please?

No. Singing his praises ensures that Lucas is defended against un-fair and un-warranted attacks that are often mean-spirited and rude. You should read some of the vile, disgusting things that so called "fans" write about Lucas as they lament their "lost childhoods" through the release of the prequels.

Its shameful.

I may be in line to buy Lucas' next "gimmick". Then again, maybe I won't. It's NOT a given. It's not a done deal.

In any case, I simply believe in fairness. I believe in decency. George Lucas is a human being. He has feelings. It saddens me to think that a man who has brought so much joy and happiness to so many millions of people throughout the entire world with his work is the target of such concentrated venom.

I guess with the advent of our culture's new cynicism and the emergence of the internet, "tactfulness" and sensitivity to other people's feelings became quaint concepts... destined for the ash can.

I believe Lucas would be glad to know how much joy he has brought me, my friends, and my family through his work, and he deserves acknowledgment for his efforts to improve / preserve the industry. In that regard, I GLADLY roll out the red carpet for George Lucas.

As far as I'm concerned, he richly deserves it.

[megoscott]

Wait. Not liking the prequels is related to the Columbine massacre?

[Werewolf]

Darklord, I think you need to take a step back, relax and examine what you've been writing and the tone of what you've been writing. You've basically been ranting what boils down to that people that like different movies then you do are somehow jaded and evil as well as relating various social ills to not liking those same movies.

I don't mean to be harsh here, but you've gone way passed fanboy to down right worship. It's honestly starting to get a little scary and creepy. I mean, I like classic Trek as much as the next and yet still other people prefer Next Gen. No harm no foul.

[MIB41]

[QUOTE=darklord1967;304250]I never said I was a "casual" STAR WARS fan.
[QUOTE]

You passionately chase after every comment that differs from yours. That screams of a 'diehard' and strongly suggests a deeper insecurity due to the length in which you need to argue mindless science fiction.

[QUOTE=darklord1967;304250]George Lucas is a human being. He has feelings.[QUOTE]

Breaking news - We all do. Take a hint and agree to disagree.

[QUOTE=darklord1967;304250]And exactly how do YOU know this? Were you there in the room when others came up with these ideas for the advancement / preservation of the medium and he simply took the ideas as his own?.[QUOTE]

No. But I have many friends who have worked for him on MANY of the Star Wars projects who have disclosed this insight (want to challenge them?). I myself have worked and run conventions for nearly 15 years during which time I have come to know and befriend many of these artists... So yes, I am easily qualified to take exception over your own defensive cynicism of the facts as I know them.

[QUOTE=darklord1967;304250]Lucas seemed quite un-comfortable with the accolades. He dismissively remarked that years from now when he is long gone, and they look through all the archives in the key milestones in the advancement of the film industry, he's quite certain that he may be nothing more than a "... brief footnote...". He said he doesn't believe that he deserves any more notice than that.[QUOTE]

Yes. He is backing up what I just said. He has ownership of the goods but didn't create them.

[QUOTE=darklord1967;304250]Singing his praises ensures that Lucas is defended against un-fair and un-warranted attacks that are often mean-spirited and rude. You should read some of the vile, disgusting things that so called "fans" write about Lucas as they lament their "lost childhoods" through the release of the prequels..[QUOTE]

Unfair and unwarranted based on who's measure? Yours? So much for a casual fan. You may believe your "defending" him, but what your really doing is just perpetuating the myth of what you imagine Lucas to be. You can only defend your feelings. What people think about the series will never change based on anything you bring to the table.

[Mikey]

You can only defend your feelings. What people think about the series will never change based on anything you bring to the table.

said in a Yoda voice

[darklord1967]

Darklord, I think you need to take a step back, relax and examine what you've been writing and the tone of what you've been writing. You've basically been ranting what boils down to that people that like different movies then you do are somehow jaded and evil as well as relating various social ills to not liking those same movies.

I don't mean to be harsh here, but you've gone way passed fanboy to down right worship. It's honestly starting to get a little scary and creepy.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way. And I'm equally sorry that you really seem to miss my point entirely.

I've repeatedly stated that I do not insist that people share my same opinion of these films. I'm passionate about them. This is true.

But I think I've adequately stated my case that my issue is NOT with those who disagree with me and dislike these films.

My issue, instead, is with an overall cynical sensibility that has creeped into our society and has somehow made something as innocuous and unimportant as the silliness of STAR WARS an affront to all humanity in the minds of some.

There are people who actually LIKE the STAR WARS prequels films who fall into this category mind-set. I have the same issue with them.

Ultimately, my "rants" were designed to try to illustrate my distaste for a growing social climate... not a distaste for an opinion of a film that differs from mine.

Anyhow, I thank you for your attention. And I apologize for coming off as "scary" or "creepy".

[The Toyroom]

Bah! This is too much to read

[palitoy]

Bah! This is too much to read

Oh man, I'm not alone. I can't get through this, it all just becomes bllllllllllleeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrgggggggggg after a minute or so.

[Werewolf]

Oh man, I'm not alone. I can't get through this, it all just becomes bllllllllllleeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrgggggggggg after a minute or so.

It's probably for the best. I read it and really wish I hadn't.

[Mikey]

To be honest, I don't read posts that are paragraphs or longer.

I'm quite lazy and just skip over them

[huedell]

One main question I have that pertains to Obi throughout the saga is:

"What's so bad about Obi being a bit callous or otherwise cowardly?"

I think that HELPS me like the character more...I mean, he seems more realistic to me that way...I mean Anakin up until the very end had
"a little good" in him-----why couldn't Obi have "a little BAD" in HIM????

When Obi says to Yoda he'd rather go fight the Emperor than fight Anakin---that line says so much----there is indecision there---irrational thinking---
maybe a little fear of Anakin's strength and certainly cowardice of
accepting the tough task that is ultimately really only his to follow.

The "older" Obi isn't any different---right through to his "ghost discussion"
with Luke in ROTJ---it never was any different...unless of course you totally
ignore his ROTJ appearance.

And, I just like that character---warts and all.

Obi was deceptive to others and to HIMSELF...but like Luke, Obi believed in democracy and not ruling the universe with an iron fist....laying
waste to entire civilizations.

Yeah Obi left his best friend to burn----but Obi was really freaked out
about his friend that turned into a mass-murderer----I can't say I blame him!

P.S. One more thing---isn't cool that Obi sacrifices his life to "save the
universe" by giving Luke a chance to escape in NEW HOPE?

And isn't even cooler that his death is at the hands of "the guy he left to burn"?

[Hector]

Jesus Christ...I mean...I love Star Wars like your average everyday nerdy fanboy does...but these last few looooooooooong posts have been a little bit on the disturbing side...lol.

I guess that's just very passionate Star Wars geekiness going on here right now, lol.