5th time is not a charm for Mark David Chapman

[Seeker]

The death penatly assures those who kill are not in a position to do it again.

Serial killers show no remorse what so ever for their crimes. They openly admit they will kill again if they ever get out. These "people" need to be put down period.

There are too many career rapist, murders and scum who rack up crime after crime, victim after victim. Even when they are in the prison system.

And until anyone can come up with some kind of "Therapy" that is 100% effective or some prison in which someone could never escape, be let out through some mistake, 0r prey on fellow inmates the Yeah I say death is not only an option but a responsibility of society.

For those who argue the morality of that I have a few people Id like you to meet. I'm sure you will change your tune. well if your still around or after youve buried your loved one

[Vortigern99]

Most of the nations in the developed world have done away with the death penalty. Your arguments may convince you and the majority of Texans of the need to "put down" certain criminals, but the EU, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Greenland, many African nations, some of South America and other scattered countries across the world disagree with your line of reasoning and utterly reject your position.

Incarceration for life is sufficient punishment and achieves the same end -- that is, removing the perpetrator from the possibilty of repeat offense.

[Hector]

Fry the sucker, fry him now.

[Hector]

"PC" has got nothing to do with it. I live in Texas, where the death penalty is PC -- it's the majority viewpoint among citizens and politicians.

Moral correctness, and the right to life of every person in the world, is what's under review here.

None of us has the right to decide when and under what circumstances another human being shall die. The very crime that we're punishing the individual for committing is now being visited upon them. This is unjust and morally wrong.

Wrathdemon and others have averred that they wouldn't wish this fate upon any other person but the subject of this thread. That statement is proof positive that this is an emotion-based issue, having nothing to do with justice or balance, but designed only to make the person feel better who has been emotionally wounded by the crime. If reason, balance and justice were at play here, all murderers across the board would be subject to deadly vengeance, not just the single individual we're discussing.

God, or the Universe, or Fate, or whatever you might choose to call the forces that are more powerful than ourselves, might have some larger purpose that we cannot understand. The individual whom you so abhor for hurting you by taking away your hero might have some part to play later in his life of which you are unaware, some part which he might not have been able to fulfill had he not been in the position he is. I don't mean to suggest that murdering Lennon was "right", but that "good" can flow from "evil" in a very unexpected and powerful way. I can give examples if you like.

As Gandalf tells Frodo: "Do not be so quick to deal out death. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

If someone where to rape and murder a female member of my family, I'll slice the animal into a million pieces. Moral, karma, whatever...I wouldn't care...I'd waste that garbage.

You wouldn't do the same?

Come on now.

[Hector]

Most of the nations in the developed world have done away with the death penalty. Your arguments may convince you and the majority of Texans of the need to "put down" certain criminals, but the EU, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Greenland, many African nations, some of South America and other scattered countries across the world disagree with your line of reasoning and utterly reject your position.

Incarceration for life is sufficient punishment and achieves the same end -- that is, removing the perpetrator from the possibilty of repeat offense.

500 murders in Cd Juarez alone so far in the year...it will be 1000 by December.

Yeah, hurray for no capital punishment in Mexico, hurray.

[huedell]

Fry the sucker, fry him now.

Yeah, yeah...you Internet Warriors are all the same...
...all talk...

Justice hasn't been served? You feel that strongly about it?

Quit typing out useless words for cripes' sake.....

GO GET HIM!

If someone where to rape and murder a female member of my family, I'll slice the animal into a million pieces. Moral, karma, whatever...I wouldn't care...I'd waste that garbage.

You wouldn't do the same?

Come on now.

Whether or not Vort would actually do that---I feel a good point to be
spot-lit here is that "female member of the family" example is significantly
more poignant to one's unravelling for a passionate revenge crime
than the um.."middle aged rock star hero" scenario.

[Vortigern99]

In the event that I was personally affected by such a heinous crime, I would hope and trust that my intellect -- my logic and reason -- would be able to overcome whatever emotional experience I was having. I would hope I would be able to serve the moral principles which I have chosen as a code by which to live my life. We are not mere animals, beholden to the gratification of our momentary feelings.

[Cosmicman]

"Stand down citizens! There will be no killing on my watch!"



Hee hee. Just a shameless plug.

Carry on.

[Seeker]

I have several friends and family members in law enforcement and corrections. I have my own experience as a EMT and a nurse in both the ER and Psych floor. And I have known several friends who have been raped or killed.

I know "people" who would happily kill you, your wife, your kid with out batting a eye, for no reason inparticular, without a trace of remorse.

People so sadistic they would do things to you that you could not imagine in your worse nightmares.

That these people are still breathing air and in some cases still on the loose are in a large part thanks to people to have that oh so nice attitude.

sometime I wish I could have my friends in the force print up some rap sheets with the ever growing list of victims complete with pictures and addresses of the families to hand to people who are so "civillized" I would love to see you enlighten them.

Untill YOU have lived it or had the pleasure of cleaning up the aftermath you have no friggan idea.

I really think the turn the other cheek people should have prisons built in their home towns and half way houses put on their streets. Maybe a nice methadone clinic next to your work.

[huedell]

Seeker---

I read your post and what comes to mind is that, personally,
although I subscribe to the
"wait a second here---let's not KILL every person that offends us with
their crimes without dissecting first"
and the
"let's not get all careless violent mouthy regarding serious issues"
ideals....

NUMBER ONE: I am NOT "anti-death penalty".

NUMBER TWO: I am not "jump-criticizing" those who make certain
revenge murder crimes a part of their life---if I did, I believe I'd be guilty of
a certain judgement that I don't have the comprehension to even
BEGIN to understand until I've examined the scenario thoroughly.

Not to rag on Vort---who I've actually sided with quite a bit here---

but it appears Vort and I differ a bit in these areas.

Yep----so far I feel that both sides I've been reading here have been
either too "black" or too "white" or too "right or left" for my own personal tastes.

Oh yes---one more thing----regarding:
"I really think the turn the other cheek people should have prisons built in their
home towns and half way houses put on their streets. Maybe a nice methadone clinic
next to your work."
Well, I don't think everyone that has a more civilized attitude should be penalized.

[Hector]

Yeah, yeah...you Internet Warriors are all the same...
...all talk...

Justice hasn't been served? You feel that strongly about it?

Quit typing out useless words for cripes' sake.....

Internet rock star.

[Vortigern99]

Again, the majority of nations in the world disagrees with you, Seeker. You appear to believe that all persons who suffer a murder of a close loved one will react by seeking the execution of those they deem responsible. This is simply not the case. In the last 5-10 minutes I've read numerous on-line articles and accounts about family members who seek forgiveness and healing rather than blood and retribution. Hence your suggestion, that if I were to suffer such a loss I would seek homicidal vengeance, is demonstrably false.

Also, this discussion is not about loss of close relatives and friends, which appears to be your platform, but rather about losing a public figure, a beloved musician who was not in close personal contact with anyone currently engaged in this discussion. Unless and until Yoko Ono, Sean or Julian Lennon calls for Chapman's execution, which to date they has not, your express opinion that people who lose loved ones automatically seek fatal revenge is not only baseless, it is irrelevant to this discussion.

What is relevant is the matter of life imprisonment. If your aim is to keep the perpetrator from killing again, life imprisonment achieves this effect in a manner that does not destroy another human life in the service of continuing the cycle of vengeance. All of the great mythic literature of the West -- from the New Testament to Malory's Morte D'Arthur to The Lord of the Rings to Batman comics -- is a testament to the moral correctness of mercy and forgiveness. The US Constitution also forbids "cruel and unusual punishment", which death by any means you care to name most certainly is. Europe, Canada (whose murder rate is practically nil), and many US states, among other nations of the world, have stricken the death penalty from their lawbooks, and many others -- including in South America, Russia and most of Africa -- have not practiced their existing execution laws for the last decade or more.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are by far in the minority of the sum total of world opinion in this.

[Hector]

The death penatly assures those who kill are not in a position to do it again.

Serial killers show no remorse what so ever for their crimes. They openly admit they will kill again if they ever get out. These "people" need to be put down period.

There are too many career rapist, murders and scum who rack up crime after crime, victim after victim. Even when they are in the prison system.

And until anyone can come up with some kind of "Therapy" that is 100% effective or some prison in which someone could never escape, be let out through some mistake, 0r prey on fellow inmates the Yeah I say death is not only an option but a responsibility of society.

For those who argue the morality of that I have a few people Id like you to meet. I'm sure you will change your tune. well if your still around or after youve buried your loved one

Great post...right on the money.

[Hector]

I have several friends and family members in law enforcement and corrections. I have my own experience as a EMT and a nurse in both the ER and Psych floor. And I have known several friends who have been raped or killed.

I know "people" who would happily kill you, your wife, your kid with out batting a eye, for no reason inparticular, without a trace of remorse.

People so sadistic they would do things to you that you could not imagine in your worse nightmares.

That these people are still breathing air and in some cases still on the loose are in a large part thanks to people to have that oh so nice attitude.

sometime I wish I could have my friends in the force print up some rap sheets with the ever growing list of victims complete with pictures and addresses of the families to hand to people who are so "civillized" I would love to see you enlighten them.

Untill YOU have lived it or had the pleasure of cleaning up the aftermath you have no friggan idea.

I really think the turn the other cheek people should have prisons built in their home towns and half way houses put on their streets. Maybe a nice methadone clinic next to your work.

Exactly.

[Hector]

Vort, although I may not agree with your ideas that lean more towards
relying on things akin to "karma" to bolster your viewpoint----still, much of your
post(s) points' regarding Chapman and justice towards him, I DO agree with.

What particularly struck me as sensible was the first thing you said in your last post...

A lot of times people will rush to this mindframe because on the SURFACE it makes
so much sense. It is indeed the "PC" solution.

An eye for an eye!

Screw him!

Get out the pitchforks!

Ahem.

Anyone see a little underrated movie called REVENGE OF THE SITH?

Well, this reminds me of the tone of voice big, bad Palpatine had when
trying to comfort Anakin for killing Dooku----an unarmed prisoner.

"He cut off your arm. You wanted revenge." he says very nonchalantly.

Those words uttered by Palapatine SOUND sensible enough to the immature---
---or the ones looking to be easily comforted for performing a rash, extreme act...

but we....as more thoughtful beings (and as big STAR WARS fans
that KNOW Palpatine is manipulating the HECK outta trhe future Vader)
know that it's not that sensibly morally simple to deal out the death penalty
without a trial ---or some kind of examination that is performed, to lend an
element of intelligence and honor to such a weighty situation and decision.

Oh great, now you are comparing a sci-fi movie with real life...wonderful.