5th time is not a charm for Mark David Chapman

[Raydeen1]

Huedell,
Starting off with a sigh is just a pathetic attempt to make me look bad.

You still totally missed the point and you are putting words in mouth.

I don't have any expectations when I meet celebs and I've met my share. The ENTIRE point of what I said was how Dime was gracious like celebs should be. If you work hard and make a career for yourself, more power to you but if you whine about the celebrity thing, honestly, that's just pathetic. These people KNOW WELL IN ADVANCE what they are getting in to. Poor career move if you don't want attention. Now, I never said word one about interupting folks at meals or stalking or being on their property or any of that nonsense...but if you play a show in Timbuckto and fans want your autograph, it's a sad day when you turn your nose up at them.

You are typing things I never said and somehow reading things I didn't write. Much like me disapproving of IronBatman's armor, without reading what's said, the first thing people say is: "Why don't we put him in Adam's West's suit then"? NOT ONCE did I say I wanted that but that's how people perceive things just because I happen to think he looks rediculous and unlike Batman in the armour.

You read way too much in to a few comments Huedell.

Are we done with the personal attacks now? Can you honestly not state your point, whatever it is, well enough without resorting to childishness?

*sigh*

Actually I totally got your point----I'll tell ya where I just screwed up royally---

it was with the metaphor I used to show how twisted your original post's philosophy
really was.

Here's the proof that my original post minus the meat packer metaphor
supports what I'm trying to say after fully understanding your post.....you said:


Even AFTER my miswritten observation of your post---your follow up post
confirms what I got from your original post...

You'll suggest a celeb getting a different career because they'd prefer to not
be "your version" of "gracious" and hang with fans and be buddy-buddy like
Dime was----and, was, in your eyes "supposed" to be????

Show me where it's written that entertainers have to work extra hard
outside of their actual work performance to curry a fan's approval of
how they "should" be-----it's ludicrous man.

And, I repeat----it's misplaced attitudes and expectations like yours
that contribute to getting nutjobs angry at celebrity people.

[huedell]

Number One ----Hector: Apologies if it got too personal. I just have a habit of
criticizing people when they speak "big words" regarding important issues on the Net----
it's very EASY to do, but very HARD to follow up.

Two...YES my post you were referring to WAS an indirect passive-agressive jab at you
and the ones that disagree with me---it also was commending Joe's level headedness--
and...
--I'm proud to admit that, because I believe in that.

Was that a mature post from me?
I thought so. You didn't.
I don't know what else to say to THAT point.

Third----I probably didn't commend seeker's post because it probably didn't come off
as balanced as Joes' (I'll have to re-read seeker's posts in this thread)-
---yes, whatever you want to believe, my full intention of my post wasn't to be
an attack on the ones who disagree with me---it was because I SINCERELY thought Joe's stance
was the most well put....balance, thoughfulness in a certain siotauation which I thought
you and others lacked Hector.

And Raydeen---not to sound immature or short---but regardless of all the explanation
you could give, I know what you're saying----yours' is a pretty common stance for "fans"
across the globe and, even though I know this---- I still get the creeps anyway----

it's like there's this unwritten law that stars owe fans something more than
it makes any sense to owe---

yes, you're not sure exactly how I'm interpreting your posts---but be assured,
I'm getting enough of the gist---you've noted different things in your posts
in this thread that in their own way add up to baselesss expectations----with nothing more
than "they knew what they were getting into" as a defense---THAT to start with
is silly----everything AFTER that is just icing on the "silly cake".

To both Hector AND Raydeen----hey we can agree to disagree---
Hector has used the words "personal attacks"---so if it appears I'm getting too
harsh reacting to your posts---then I have to apologize. I just thought
my specific problems with your specific posts were focused---and not mean-spirited--
and that's what I'm concerned about, frankly.

[Johnny]

"I don't believe in killing whatever the reason!"
--John Lennon

Every now and then a perfect post occurs. In this thread that was it.

Brilliant.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

"I don't believe in killing whatever the reason!"
--John Lennon

That is a brilliant quote to add. . . .no doubt about that.

But give him 5 minutes notice of what was about to happen to him. . . .I am guessing he would have had a very sudden change of opinion. He would have been very happy for another person to be killed so that an innocent person namely himself, could and absolutely correctly . . .been allowed to live out a normal happy life with wife, children friends and loved ones. Pretty darn sure. . . that given 5 minutes notice. . . John would have been trying to find/buy/access a gun himself. . . . as would I or any innocent person.

Had it been Yoko. . . shot by a disappointed and rabbid Beatles fan, blaming her for the break up or something. . . he probably would have very different views as well.

Rich, famous people with too much money and free time. . . .protected from the normal day to day stressors of life. . . .often afford to have unrealistic views as well. . . .that the rest of us can't afford to share. Nothing specific to John necessarilly here. . . just an over generalisation that often times is true.

[Cosmicman]

"Life is what happens to you while your busy making other plans."

-John Lennon 1980-


My brother and I wrote a song about John Lennon in 1996 called, "He was...I am". It pretty much covered everything we have talked about in these last four or five pages of posts. It has given me the initiative to go dig it up and re-record it and possibly make a music video for it.

People need to remember John Lennon.
1940-1980

[Vortigern99]

Rich, famous people with too much money and free time. . . .protected from the normal day to day stressors of life. . . .often afford to have unrealistic views as well. . . .that the rest of us can't afford to share. Nothing specific to John necessarilly here. . . just an over generalisation that often times is true.

Just for the record, I am not rich, famous, nor in possession of too much time on my hands. Also, Buddhists are not rich and famous, though I suppose one might be able to accuse them of having too much time on their hands. Further, most of the populations and governments of the EU, Canada, Mexico, Greenland, Australia, most of South America, much of Africa, and some Asian countries are neither rich nor famous, nor, I suspect, do they have too much time on their hands.

And yet all of us share this simple credo with John Lennon: Capital punishment is wrong.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Vortigern99
. . . but the EU, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Greenland, many African nations, some of South America and other scattered countries across the world disagree with your line of reasoning and utterly reject your position.

. . .Again, the majority of nations in the world disagrees with you, Seeker.

. . . Europe, Canada (whose murder rate is practically nil), and many US states, among other nations of the world, have stricken the death penalty from their lawbooks, and many others -- including in South America, Russia and most of Africa -- have not practiced their existing execution laws for the last decade or more.

. . . .You are entitled to your opinion, but you are by far in the minority of the sum total of world opinion in this.

I really don't know if this position holds any water. I suspect more countries in the world still have some form of capital punishment than not. . .I wouldn't know. . . but you can't name a few countries and then say that.

And in countries like here in Australia where it is no longer practiced. . . you will find the majority of people are still for it, but the pollies and the political parties are just too scared to touch the political hot potato.

I have from personal experience found that the law is a pitiful and weak excuse for any form of justice, often none at all. . . and am surprised that more vigilante justice isn't dispensed.

I could personally give a rats buttocks about it be a deterant. . . some folks crimes surpass any requirement to consider them human there after and require removal from the gene pool, and this life. Like Seeker I have worked with some. . .that I genuinely believe require such removal. . . for the safety of innocent people and very often children. The law does little to keep people locked up for very long over here.

Some folks kill here and get let off. . . it is totally insane. No prison time at all. . . it makes you sick.

We live in Dangerous times because of the tolerance and uninformed naive good will of a few, that have never had to deal with these people or lost loved ones from evil and dangerous people.

And with regards to the few reports of family's calling for love and forgivess. . . the example of a small number providing anecdoatal evidence. . .in no way. . .out numbers that majority that would far rather see justice done. . . I believe anyway.

[huedell]

Well Vort, regarding what Aussie said re: rich performers---I'm saying
for the record that whether you're "rich" or "poor" economically
----sometimes it just sucks being an artist--

--particularly an entertainer---as for some reason, people like to look at entertainers
as being petty or egotistical or "take your pick" -----and this then nullifies their views.

It's bull.

As non-entertainers/celebs are so fond of saying----artists, celebs and other
entertainers are only human---and no different than any one else---

That MEANS something.

It means that entertainers views are as valid as others and their views should be
respected as such.

You can't have it both ways, saying certain people are "only human" to "knock 'em
down a peg"----and then hold them to all kinds of standards and stereotypes
based on the fact that they're "different"

The fact REALLY is that EVERYBODY is "different".

Everybody lives a different lifestyle but are still human for cripes' sake
......and yes, rich people----artists--celebs
----and otherwise suppposedly "well off" people are just as susceptible
to pain, problems and predicaments as everyone else....and they should
be viewed as such...with the same expectations you'd give towards any other
Joe on the street....and the same RESPECT.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Rich, famous people with too much money and free time. . . .protected from the normal day to day stressors of life. . . .often afford to have unrealistic views as well. . . .that the rest of us can't afford to share. Nothing specific to John necessarilly here. . . just an over generalisation that often times is true.

Just for the record, I am not rich, famous, nor in possession of too much time on my hands. Also, Buddhists are not rich and famous, though I suppose one might be able to accuse them of having too much time on their hands. Further, most of the populations and governments of the EU, Canada, Mexico, Greenland, Australia, most of South America, much of Africa, and some Asian countries are neither rich nor famous, nor, I suspect, do they have too much time on their hands.

And yet all of us share this simple credo with John Lennon: Capital punishment is wrong.

Sorry Vort, I posted my above post before seeing this one of yours. I just think you have a strong opinion which you are entitled too. . .no doubt about that. . .but I don't think you should try to justify that position by trying to claim you are in the majority of the world view.

I also don't believe that majority positions are always the correct ones anyway. Many times a minority may have the most moral or best justified views or position on a subject.

Seeker and I have a different view from yours. . . because we confront some of these issues on a daily basis. I laugh, work with, and care for people in my daily job. . . .that I believe pose far too much risk too innocent people and children. . . and would rather not see released on the streets, but know that our - self-destructuive and overly tolerant society will release. . . .to pertertrate more carnage upon its innocent members.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Well Vort, regarding what Aussie said re: rich performers---I'm saying
for the record that whether you're "rich" or "poor" economically
----sometimes it just sucks being an artist--

--particularly an entertainer---as for some reason, people like to look at entertainers
as being petty or egotistical or "take your pick" -----and this then nullifies their views.

It's bull.

As non-entertainers/celebs are so fond of saying----artists, celebs and other
entertainers are only human---and no different than any one else---

That MEANS something.

It means that entertainers views are as valid as others and their views should be
respected as such.

You can't have it both ways, saying certain people are "only human" to "knock 'em
down a peg"----and then hold them to all kinds of standards and stereotypes
based on the fact that they're "different"

The fact REALLY is that EVERYBODY is "different".

Everybody lives a different lifestyle but are still human for cripes' sake
......and yes, rich people----artists--celebs
----and otherwise suppposedly "well off" people are just as susceptible
to pain, problems and predicaments as everyone else....and they should
be viewed as such...with the same expectations you'd give towards any other
Joe on the street....and the same RESPECT.

Because they are rich and whatever - people often put more stock in their beliefs. . .when these can often be without any real informed basis, or experience in the area. I think my point is they may take positions often from popular opinion or an ill informed basis, with little or no experience in the areas they wish to push their beliefs or agendas. . . .and then those positions are held in such high esteem. . . .without any real reason for them to be so. . . . .if that makes any sense.

[huedell]

Because they are rich and whatever - people often put more stock in their beliefs. . .when these can often be without any real informed basis, or experience in the area. I think my point is they may take positions often from popular opinion or an ill informed basis, with little or no experience in the areas they wish to push their beliefs or agendas. . . .and then those positions are held in such high esteem. . . .without any real reason for them to be so. . . . .if that makes any sense.

This is a traditional stereotype that I believe Lennon did not fall into.

I guess that pretty much sums up why we'd see differently
regarding Lennon specifically Aussie.

Yeah, ironically I thought Lennon was pretty much a jerk---just from my
humble vantage point---(and that had a lot to do with where he came from
and how I interpret it personally---and I admittedly could be wrong)

BUT, I did see Lennon as being--- not only looking to improve himself
with a passion----but also as a well-educated guy doing such.

Lennon WAS in touch with a lot of realities, as far as I'd estimate---
Yeah ---he wasn't really "in the trenches" (he was pretty busy being
one of the most influential artists of the modern era)----but he
seemed to hone in on injustice
in a way unlike most people---celebrity or otherwise.

Sometimes it TAKES being rich----putting the monetary worries
to rest in order to focus on other things--- to find out the realities of life
around you....you just have to be wise and passionate about it.

It goes both ways.

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Being a meat packer myself I gotta say, I hate when I am out in the bar and inevitably some drunk recognizes me and starts in with the "hey man, pack some meat for us", "c'mon do that funny meat pack thing" or "hey, do that line from the day you packed that meat in the wrong container" Equally annoying is when they start quoting great meat packing lines I have said or worse still when they try to act them out.

But, it is something I accepted when I joined the glamorous world of meat packing. I knew what I was getting into. It isn't all bright lights and sweet, sweet smells, my friends.

LMAO. Tired of the dudes coming up and doing the whole Air-Meating packing thing!

[AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM]

Also, there is the matter of wrongful incrimination. DNA evidence has in the last few years exonerated a number of people once headed for death row, and has even shown that some people have been wrongly executed. [I]Those are deaths that happened as a result of this system you guys are supporting.

I do have to admit. . .it is always hard to argue this point. This does happen and I certainly have very little trust left in police. . . corruption is rife in virtually every force in the world. . .even if only amongst a MINORITY (sorry I had written majority by mistake) of law enforcement officers. . . but it is there.

But I still believe there are cases that are beyond doubt that probably justify it. I really don't know what the answer is though. It is just a really tough issue isn't it.

[Vortigern99]

The answer, if there is one, is lifetime incarceration, without possiblity of parole, and in a "death-row" type setting. This removes the perpetrator not only from society at large but also from the general prison population. It also takes away the chance the state may have the wrong person, in such cases where this is a possibility.

This is humane, moral, punitive and logically sound. I hope that one day we may put this system into operation instead of the one we currently have.

[Seeker]

As long as we want to talk about history and the world at large.

Yeah it would be kind of pointless to talk about ethnic cleansing, genocide,(Africa, Eastern Europe) the crime rate, murders , assasinations (particularly south and latin america) or the middle east. Or discuss the prison systems in Russia and most of Asia minor. (Lets just say they don't coddle prisoners with cable TV and such)

We could mention the Nuremburg trials. I dont recall too many countries arguing about the death penalty then.
Or are you also against the current Iraqi War crimes convictions?
Didnt see to many candlelight visuals in the US protesting that one.

An eye for an eye is wrong? One for 10 to 15? (Average serial killer)? One for a thousand?

Would you have a problem putting down a rabid dog? Sure its sick, its dangerous, and there is no way you can make it better.

Would you lock it up, try to keep it fed and such (Endangering the workers who have to go in a care for it) till it died naturally?