Is Sabbath, Zeppelin & Alice METAL ?

[ctc]

Hmmmm....

When you discuss stuff like this you have to remember that yes; nothing happens overnight, and most labels are applied in retrospect. "Metal" covers a LOT of ground. Even today.

"Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" does an excellent job covering this debate; although he traces the origins back a LOT farther. Valdi, wasn't it? So Zep and KISS don't fit the current definition; but from them came the base that the new guys built on. Thankfully metal as a genre HASN'T stagnated. The difficulty cataloguing it is testament to this. And over the years each generation has drawn from some odd sources. Who'd have ever thought opera and power chords would go together? (Before groups like Nightwish and Manowar.)

Late 60's music had a lot of influence on metal. Musically; if not conceptually. (Although Arthur Brown's "Fire" may be an exception.) If you get the chance; listen to "The Story in Your Eyes" by the Moody Blues, but listen to the guitar. Those are proto-metal power chords.

>When did Motley Crue become Classic Rock?

When their albums passed 20 years old.

Don C.

[Hulk]

I think Heavy Metal as its own genre of music died when the movie came out. Most everything since then has been a variation of the original (glam / punk / hair / whatever), even among most of the bands that defined it. Rush was certainly Heavy Metal until Permanent Waves came out. All of the bands listed could have been considered Heavy Metal back then, although today they'd be labeled Classic, Hard or Progressive Rock or something else. Now its just a label that has little meaning in context of modern music. I have to agree that Deep Purple and early Black Sabbath define Heavy Metal for me though.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Check out these early head bangers. And I never even knew hippies could be head bangers.

no no no

child in time

Killer stuff. Don't forget the Purple. Check out the links. Some very early metal stuff there.

Well headbanging had to get its start somewhere! Basically "hippies" are the original headbangers. Ian Gillan was really an early master of that.

Love those DP clips. That clip of "No No No" is what got me into them when I saw it on late night television as a young kid. The "Fireball" album is my favorite, next to "Burn".

[nvmbrsdoom5]

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting my two cents.

No man I totally hear ya, believe me

And you're right about the Alice thing.....it's one thing if people want to debate the 1960s and 1970s output, but from Constrictor on, I feel that he definitely fits into the Metal category.

This is all fun for debate and discussion really, as long as people ultimately realise that there is no "definitive" answer to something like this. As mentioned earlier, it's probably folly trying to categorize all this stuff anyhow, as so many artists are diverse enough that you cannot pigeonhole their entire output into just one specific category.

[huedell]

I would agree. The only true metal band is Black Sabbath. Zeppelin could be metal, but wasn't too frequently. Alice is just rock, while KISS is bad glam rock. Sorry, I don't like KISS.

It's okay Goblin--as a KISS fan and a guy who could care less about Alice---
I could just describe Alice as "bad rocK"---wouldn't have done so originally--
-but ye who cast the first stone

[Goblin19]

I would agree. The only true metal band is Black Sabbath. Zeppelin could be metal, but wasn't too frequently. Alice is just rock, while KISS is bad glam rock. Sorry, I don't like KISS.

[apes3978]

[QUOTE=The Toyroom;149576]Just remember that when these bands first came out terms like "Classic Rock" didn't exist...to quote "Bowling for Soup" in "1985":

"When did Motley Crue become Classic Rock"? [QUOTE]

That line in that song has nothing to do with "classic rock" per se... It's all about that chick in the song being stuck in the 80s and wondering when Crue became "classic rock" as in they're an "oldies/classic" band now... The same way she didn't know who Hagar was when she asks "Who's that other guy sisnging in Van Halen?"

[hobub]

The God of Hell's Fire and significant influence of both Alice and Kiss.

[Cosmicman]

Sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting my two cents.

[hobub]

I'd have to say that along with Steppenwolf with the lyric "heavy metal thunder" coining the name and Iron Butterfly with their hard core heavy sound, the one band that stands out to me that was heavier than Zeppelin, and Sabbath both for the same exact time period was Deep Purple. If you compare, though the others had heavy sound to them in some of their songs. Purple, with fireball and deep purple in rock, no doubt had a very early start to the later sound that developed into hard core metal.

Check out these early head bangers. And I never even knew hippies could be head bangers.

no no no

child in time

Killer stuff. Don't forget the Purple. Check out the links. Some very early metal stuff there.

[Brue]

I'd say Zep has always been lumoed with metal or at least hard rock based on a few songs, bands intensity and time of popularity. Are they metal - No. Classic Rock is too generic - I'd go Blues rock.

Sabbath - defines heavy metal

Alice Cooper certainly could go in that category but could be placed elswhere.

Kiss - disco era heavy metal - which as stated earlier is Glam rock.

November's Doom? I dunno - how do you categorize legends?

[megoat]

I don't know, maybe it's just a fool's game to try and put music in neat catagories.

This is true. Most labels are pretty loosely defined. MANY things fit under the umbrella of most music labels--then you have to start to sub catagorize. I mean, take ROCK N' ROLL for instance. This includes everything from Elvis to The Beatles to Black Sabbath to Black Flag etc etc....

Also, no music form is born overnight. They evolve over time. The origins of Metal are found in the late 60's as a sort of offshoot of the hard rock/hard psych/hard blues scene. Most early "hard rock" was a "hard blues". So yeah, Zeppelin certainly fits into the equation. It really wasn't until the late 70's NWOBHM that the blues element was taken away. Sabbath certainly were the progenitors of the darkness and the doom. They really are THE proto-metal band. But when their first LP came out, it would have just been understood as a dark psych record with a hard edge. It took years for metal to form into it's own distinct form....

And since we're on the topic of proto metal, I'd like to take the time to share one of my faves. Flower Travelin' Band outta Japan. Early 70's Far East Sabbath Heavy Weirdness. They rule:

YouTube - Flower Travellin' Band 8mm footage

[cjefferys]

If you've heard their first album "Pretties for you" I think you must agree that while shortlived, Alice Cooper actually started of as a somewhat typical (for the era) blues influenced psych/garage rock band. Really good stuff that seems to get overlooked by just about everybody.
Check out the cut "ain't that just like a woman", to hear some fine "harp" work by Vinnie himself.

Alice also went in some different directions and styles in the late 70s and early 80s with albums like "From the Inside", "Lace and Whiskey", "Dada", etc. Very far from heavy metal.

I consider Black Sab more of "proto metal", a big influence on later metal bands.

KISS: music-wise, a straight forward, simple hard rock band

Led Zep: a heavily blues based rock band, along with folk and world music influences. That's one reason why I like them so much, their songs have so many different styles. The band almost defies catagorization.

I agree with the comment that "heavy metal" meant a different thing in the 70's than it does today. And of course, metal itself now has a seemingly endless amount of sub genres.

I don't know, maybe it's just a fool's game to try and put music in neat catagories.

[nvmbrsdoom5]

The Canadian prog-metal band Voivod did an awesome cover of "The Nile Song" in the early '90s. They also did a well known cover of "Astronomy Domine".

Again, I don't think of Pink Floyd being a metal band, but did they influence alot of metal bands/artists? Absolutely.

[Mikey]

It's a really tough one...

Even bands like Pink Floyd dabbled in what has later become metal.

Every hear, The Nile Song from 1968 ?

Only music with a static photo
YouTube - Pink Floyd - The Nile Song

m