The Ramones vs. The Sex Pistols

[Joe90]

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. What do I know about Punk???

I am glad to see that many of you have called the SP's for what they were -- a punk version of the Monkees. I would not argue if one of you stepped up and asserted that the Monkees had more artistic credibility due to the song writing and their vocal abilities. I think that Malcolm McLaren's Madame Butterfly should be considered representative of his work in general: superficially pleasing -- if you like that sort of thing -- but without any real depth. I think The Ramones were more about the music, but then so were Brit bands like The Clash.

[megoat]

Dismissing Never Mind The Bollocks as just some sort of a "phony" or "put on" punk rock really misses the point. While it is true that there were some definite calculated maneuvers via Team McLaren and Co., the one record itself still stands as one of THE defining testaments in the history and progression of what is commonly referred to as PUNK ROCK. To argue otherwise is just plain silly.....

[misterdroid]

Dismissing Never Mind The Bollocks as just some sort of a "phony" or "put on" punk rock really misses the point. While it is true that there were some definite calculated maneuvers via Team McLaren and Co., the one record itself still stands as one of THE defining testaments in the history and progression of what is commonly referred to as PUNK ROCK. To argue otherwise is just plain silly.....

Without question... Yes they were put together under the guidance of McLaren. Yes, Sid couldn't play his way out of a wet paper sack (but sid features on none of the original studio recordings) And I have no doubt Malcolm used them to his own ends as much as he could, especially at the beginning. He was offering these guys a leg up out of the working class squalor of the UK in the mid 70's... but really how much could he have made off them? Dropped from label after label and leaving one LP and a couple of singles as historical record. No tracks made the charts, I can't imagine he got rich... it all probably cost him money. It did make Malcolm a pseudo celebrity and certainly got his name in the papers, but a Monkeys comparison is a bit unfair. The Monkeys were a product designed by a corporation to be sold to the masses. With a calculated "copycat" sound to the British Invasion bands. The Pistols may have come together under guidance but the sound was definitely organic. NOTHING sounded like them! Nothing. There is no way McLaren could have forced that. Bullocks sounds new today! I imagine his take was more along the lines of "Quirky, cute boys that can help me sell a few jumpers". He's clever, but a look at his business savvy shows a guy who merely rides trends. He went from selling teddy boy gear, to latex sex stuff and THEN, eventually to punk styles - AFTER the Pistols themselves, independently, defined it.
They had SO much influence, starting before bullocks or the singles hit the streets. SO many really great bands churned up in the wake of a what they were doing musically/socially. The damned, the clash, sioxsie, chelsea on and on so much happened after that... slaughter and the dogs, sham 69, anti-nowhere league. Even much later bands like the exploited, GBH and Broken Bones can trace back a direct lineage to the "filth and the fury".
It's tough for americans to wrap their heads around it, but London in the 70's was a helluva different place than new york. Yes-the Ramones were fun and catchy as hell. But the pistols absolutely redefined youth culture/ class systems and rock 'n roll... to this day.

Whew! I'm dizzy from standing on my soapbox so long... someone help me down so I can go to bed...

[nvmbrsdoom5]

What Megoat and MisterDroid posted is pretty much true. The Pistols true "relevance" was that they influenced and inspired an entire musical movement that stretched beyond punk rock even. The whole Manchester scene, spawning bands as diverse as Buzzcocks, Joy Division, New Order, The Smiths, and Simply Red (!), was basically kickstarted by the Sex Pistols live appearance there in 1976. Whether or not you're a fan of the music that they created, there's just no way to denounce the massive impact and effect the Pistols had on music, especially in the U.K.
However, the effect that the Ramones had on them is paramount, to my mind, because of the impact that they had on both the NYC scene as well as the UK scene. Members of bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Damned, etc., have all stepped up and said that seeing the Ramones play live on their first UK tour was what truly kicked them up the backside and made them into the bands they became. So The Ramones truly did plant that initial seed, along with the New York Dolls to a lesser extent, that created both the U.S. punk scene and the U.K. scene.

In terms of who had better music.....well I enjoy them both but I'm a much bigger Ramones fan. At the same time, to be honest, it's alot easier to choose when you're pitting one band with twenty years worth of recordings up against another band who only had one officially released album. And while the Ramones' music might come off as repetetive and simplistic to some, I would'nt be too quick to write them off as only "fair" songwriters. They're written many lyrics, riffs, and melodic hooks that stick in your head for ages, and that's not very easy to do!

[monkey tennis]

The Sex Pistols could spit better...

In your face Music

[Hulk]

The Ramones by KO early in the second round.

[megomonkey]

Ramones vs. the Pistols? Ramones by a 'slide. Most relevant act? Iggy Pop and the Stooges- RAW POWER, BAYYYY-BEEEEE!

[Joe90]

I get the impression that it's agreed that the British Punk Scene had it's Genesis in the New York Scene. I think as surely as the British Invasion had it's beginnings in American popular music. I won't dismiss the impact of the Sex Pistols on pop culture, just like I can't dismiss the impact of Tupac, or 50 Cent on the mainstream culture of today. As far as credibility, well...

Musically, however, I think that the Sex Pistols were the Herman's Hermits to The Clash's Beatles.

And the Ramones, Iggy Pop, The Velvet Underground, etc were the Bo Diddly, Little Richard, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, etc, etc, etc, to that British Invasion of the late 1970's...

And Malcolm McLaren was just a shadow of Phil Spector...

[misterdroid]

I get the impression that it's agreed that the British Punk Scene had it's Genesis in the New York Scene. I think as surely as the British Invasion had it's beginnings in American popular music. I won't dismiss the impact of the Sex Pistols on pop culture, just like I can't dismiss the impact of Tupac, or 50 Cent on the mainstream culture of today. As far as credibility, well...

Musically, however, I think that the Sex Pistols were the Herman's Hermits to The Clash's Beatles.

And the Ramones, Iggy Pop, The Velvet Underground, etc were the Bo Diddly, Little Richard, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, etc, etc, etc, to that British Invasion of the late 1970's...

And Malcolm McLaren was just a shadow of Phil Spector...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/9/156...8beb4dd73c.jpghttp://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/..._300x414,0.jpg

This thread is wearing me out. It has travelled to my work and morphed into who had more influence, Grandmaster Flash or NWA... Sort of the same question. One helped create a genre the other changed it overnight.
And I understand the resistance to the Pistols due to the McLaren connection. I feel much the same way about The Velvets and Warhol.
So let's all pick a favorite and ROCK.

ps... Spector's hair is amazing...

[megoat]

I think the main thing that this thread has exposed is that 90 percent of the replies I read have interpreted this thread as WHO DO YOU PREFER as opposed to WHO IS MORE RELEVANT. There is a big difference. I appreciated the initial idea of RELEVANCE because it makes for a much more interesting discussion. At least one that you can quantify to some extent (i mean, when it comes to personal preference, it's hard to argue convincingly one way or the other).

Ultimately, I personally enjoy listening to the Ramones more than the 'Pistols, but I see them both as HUGE giants in terms of historical importance. But that said I'd rather listen to The Buzzcocks, Wire, The Fall, The Germs, Black Flag, Television, The Minutemen etc. more than the Ramones or the Sex Pistols combined, but I'd be stupid to deny the influence of both said bands on the music that I have loved and cherished since I "discovered" it when i was fourteen years old.....

[misterdroid]

I think the main thing that this thread has exposed is that 90 percent of the replies I read have interpreted this thread as WHO DO YOU PREFER as opposed to WHO IS MORE RELEVANT. There is a big difference. I appreciated the initial idea of RELEVANCE because it makes for a much more interesting discussion. At least one that you can quantify to some extent (i mean, when it comes to personal preference, it's hard to argue convincingly one way or the other).

Ultimately, I personally enjoy listening to the Ramones more than the 'Pistols, but I see them both as HUGE giants in terms of historical importance. But that said I'd rather listen to The Buzzcocks, Wire, The Fall, The Germs, Black Flag, Television, The Minutemen etc. more than the Ramones or the Sex Pistols combined, but I'd be stupid to deny the influence of both said bands on the music that I have loved and cherished since I "discovered" it when i was fourteen years old.....

Amen... I attended my first punk show in early '84. I attended my last one this past Monday. In the intervening 24 or so years I have seen thousands of bands. When I dip in to my record collection I rarely grab for the Ramones OR the Pistols (but sometimes I crave one or the other... tie). Punk means a LOT to me. Maybe I overthink it, but music may be the BIGGEST part of my life. I listen to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have tolerated then, but I've grown up and moved on. To me things that predate or exist entirely out of the sphere of punk are still "punk". Big Star is punk, The Sonics are punk, early Stones are punk... Roky, MC5, Bolan, Bowie... Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Beefheart, The Troggs... Anything and anyone operating outside the musical safety area. Hell, Little Richard is most likely the TRUE father of punk!

[huedell]

I never cared much for how anything has affected anything other than "me"---
I guess I'm the opposite of a history buff---so that's one main reason I keep taking it
off the subject of overall "historical relevance"---at least I'm acknowledging there IS
a difference.

One thing I DO acknowledge as far as "history" is the affect things I like have on pop
culture---but again---its only to discern why I may think a certain way--- in the
context of history/the masses.

And, finally, this is why I appreciate THE RAMONES tons more than the SEX PISTOLS
----I'm more about "pop hook" crafting than I am about "attitude" and the RAMONES
had BOTH pop hooks AND attitude to spare (they DID precede the PISTOLS in the punk
realm after all) while the PISTOLS were merely heavier on attitude----so there's that.

[misterdroid]

And, finally, this is why I appreciate THE RAMONES tons more than the SEX PISTOLS
----I'm more about "pop hook" crafting than I am about "attitude" and the RAMONES
had BOTH pop hooks AND attitude to spare (they DID precede the PISTOLS in the punk
realm after all) while the PISTOLS were merely heavier on attitude----so there's that.

Sorry (and respectfully) that is not a valid point... Bullocks has some of the catchiest hooks EVER. It is one of the few (out of the 1,000 or so) records that I own, that I cannot resist playing air guitar to. My god... the whole thing is nothing but AWESOME hooks. It has always been a head scratcher to me that in interviews the Pistols always make the "we could barely play our instruments" claim.
Ignore the attitude, ignore the political views... hell ignore the vocals entirely. Listen to Matlock/Jones/Cook knock the ball out of the park on the record.
I am not saying it negates the Ramones... I'm just saying it is an awesome record...give it a chance.

[huedell]

"Sorry (and respectfully) that is not a valid point... Bullocks has some of the catchiest
hooks EVER."
----------------------says mister droid

NOT a valid point?????

Excuse me.

-----respectfully "No"

BOLLOCKS only had two songs considered "siginificantly catchy" in the pop music zeitgiest
and that's a fact proven by history.
Just turn on your radio. Look at the tribute albums over the years.

You might love the SEX PISTOLS...but don't let that cloud reality.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

ANARCHY IN THE U.K. is one song by the SP considered "catchy" by pop standards
...and heck---you can choose the other--(good luck) because its surely not obvious
(maybe GOD SAVE THE QUEEN? SEASONS IN THE SUN?)

Add to that that the RAMONES buried ---freakin' BURIED the SEX PISTOLS
in this pop hook regard with:
"I Wanna Be Sedated" "Do You Remember Rock 'n' Roll Radio?
"Beat on the Brat" "Sheena Is a Punk Rocker"
"Blitzkrieg Bop" "Rockaway Beach" "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend"
"We're a Happy Family" "We Want the Airwaves" "Chinese Rock"
"The KKK Took My Baby Away" "Rock 'n' Roll High School"

and many MANY more---well, I could realistically call your claim "silly" at best...and
"outlandish" at second best.

Give NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS a chance?

Not in the context of pop hooks up against the mighty RAMONES discography.

That's crazy.

"Good air guitar potential" is not enough. You need killer pop hook laden songs
to be considered good at writing pop hooks---its that simple.

[megoat]

This is why "personal preference" arguments are silly. I like mushrooms. You don't. End of conversation.