The Ramones vs. The Sex Pistols

[huedell]

12 names for one song?

Its a great effin' song

[Bill]

Add to that that the RAMONES buried ---freakin' BURIED the SEX PISTOLS
in this pop hook regard with:
"I Wanna Be Sedated" "Do You Remember Rock 'n' Roll Radio?
"Beat on the Brat" "Sheena Is a Punk Rocker"
"Blitzkrieg Bop" "Rockaway Beach" "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend"
"We're a Happy Family" "We Want the Airwaves" "Chinese Rock"
"The KKK Took My Baby Away" "Rock 'n' Roll High School"

12 names for one song?

[Hector]

Are you guys still at it?

[huedell]

This is why "personal preference" arguments are silly. I like mushrooms. You don't. End of conversation.

Really?

I don't think this has as much to do with "personal preference" as it does
the need to stretch facts to make a band into something more than
they are (or even wanted to be)

If one can't see that the SEX PISTOL's songs have less pop sensibility and
are more "balls" and "bluster"---I don't know what to tell you.

Its like this....

You may SAY that a typical Red Delicious apple has a decent amount of
orange in it----and you can use a color spectrum analyzer on it to PROVE
you have the "right" to give that "opinion" ----but that doesn't change the
fact that 98 out of 100 people on the street are gonna call that apple RED--
--end of story.

To try to sell NMTB as an album with songs that have pop hooks comprable
to the best of what the RAMONES have to offer in THAT regard is silly.

You can LOVE the PISTOLS all you want---but that doesn't turn water
into wine ----make a red apple look orange----or make Johnny Rotten
a better popsong writer than Joey or Dee Dee----not that Rotten would
WANT to be that (or admit to wanting to be--- anyway)

[Joe90]

This is why "personal preference" arguments are silly. I like mushrooms. You don't. End of conversation.

Well, isn't "relevant" as every bit a subjective viewpoint as "personal preference"? Hmmm... It involves opinion, so yeah.

After all, Mego figures are relevant to you and I, but not to many of the people we work with.

Now, Phil Spector has bigger hair than Malcolm McLaren -- that's a fact!

[megoat]

This is why "personal preference" arguments are silly. I like mushrooms. You don't. End of conversation.

[huedell]

"Sorry (and respectfully) that is not a valid point... Bullocks has some of the catchiest
hooks EVER."
----------------------says mister droid

NOT a valid point?????

Excuse me.

-----respectfully "No"

BOLLOCKS only had two songs considered "siginificantly catchy" in the pop music zeitgiest
and that's a fact proven by history.
Just turn on your radio. Look at the tribute albums over the years.

You might love the SEX PISTOLS...but don't let that cloud reality.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

ANARCHY IN THE U.K. is one song by the SP considered "catchy" by pop standards
...and heck---you can choose the other--(good luck) because its surely not obvious
(maybe GOD SAVE THE QUEEN? SEASONS IN THE SUN?)

Add to that that the RAMONES buried ---freakin' BURIED the SEX PISTOLS
in this pop hook regard with:
"I Wanna Be Sedated" "Do You Remember Rock 'n' Roll Radio?
"Beat on the Brat" "Sheena Is a Punk Rocker"
"Blitzkrieg Bop" "Rockaway Beach" "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend"
"We're a Happy Family" "We Want the Airwaves" "Chinese Rock"
"The KKK Took My Baby Away" "Rock 'n' Roll High School"

and many MANY more---well, I could realistically call your claim "silly" at best...and
"outlandish" at second best.

Give NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS a chance?

Not in the context of pop hooks up against the mighty RAMONES discography.

That's crazy.

"Good air guitar potential" is not enough. You need killer pop hook laden songs
to be considered good at writing pop hooks---its that simple.

[misterdroid]

And, finally, this is why I appreciate THE RAMONES tons more than the SEX PISTOLS
----I'm more about "pop hook" crafting than I am about "attitude" and the RAMONES
had BOTH pop hooks AND attitude to spare (they DID precede the PISTOLS in the punk
realm after all) while the PISTOLS were merely heavier on attitude----so there's that.

Sorry (and respectfully) that is not a valid point... Bullocks has some of the catchiest hooks EVER. It is one of the few (out of the 1,000 or so) records that I own, that I cannot resist playing air guitar to. My god... the whole thing is nothing but AWESOME hooks. It has always been a head scratcher to me that in interviews the Pistols always make the "we could barely play our instruments" claim.
Ignore the attitude, ignore the political views... hell ignore the vocals entirely. Listen to Matlock/Jones/Cook knock the ball out of the park on the record.
I am not saying it negates the Ramones... I'm just saying it is an awesome record...give it a chance.

[huedell]

I never cared much for how anything has affected anything other than "me"---
I guess I'm the opposite of a history buff---so that's one main reason I keep taking it
off the subject of overall "historical relevance"---at least I'm acknowledging there IS
a difference.

One thing I DO acknowledge as far as "history" is the affect things I like have on pop
culture---but again---its only to discern why I may think a certain way--- in the
context of history/the masses.

And, finally, this is why I appreciate THE RAMONES tons more than the SEX PISTOLS
----I'm more about "pop hook" crafting than I am about "attitude" and the RAMONES
had BOTH pop hooks AND attitude to spare (they DID precede the PISTOLS in the punk
realm after all) while the PISTOLS were merely heavier on attitude----so there's that.

[misterdroid]

I think the main thing that this thread has exposed is that 90 percent of the replies I read have interpreted this thread as WHO DO YOU PREFER as opposed to WHO IS MORE RELEVANT. There is a big difference. I appreciated the initial idea of RELEVANCE because it makes for a much more interesting discussion. At least one that you can quantify to some extent (i mean, when it comes to personal preference, it's hard to argue convincingly one way or the other).

Ultimately, I personally enjoy listening to the Ramones more than the 'Pistols, but I see them both as HUGE giants in terms of historical importance. But that said I'd rather listen to The Buzzcocks, Wire, The Fall, The Germs, Black Flag, Television, The Minutemen etc. more than the Ramones or the Sex Pistols combined, but I'd be stupid to deny the influence of both said bands on the music that I have loved and cherished since I "discovered" it when i was fourteen years old.....

Amen... I attended my first punk show in early '84. I attended my last one this past Monday. In the intervening 24 or so years I have seen thousands of bands. When I dip in to my record collection I rarely grab for the Ramones OR the Pistols (but sometimes I crave one or the other... tie). Punk means a LOT to me. Maybe I overthink it, but music may be the BIGGEST part of my life. I listen to a lot of stuff I wouldn't have tolerated then, but I've grown up and moved on. To me things that predate or exist entirely out of the sphere of punk are still "punk". Big Star is punk, The Sonics are punk, early Stones are punk... Roky, MC5, Bolan, Bowie... Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Beefheart, The Troggs... Anything and anyone operating outside the musical safety area. Hell, Little Richard is most likely the TRUE father of punk!

[megoat]

I think the main thing that this thread has exposed is that 90 percent of the replies I read have interpreted this thread as WHO DO YOU PREFER as opposed to WHO IS MORE RELEVANT. There is a big difference. I appreciated the initial idea of RELEVANCE because it makes for a much more interesting discussion. At least one that you can quantify to some extent (i mean, when it comes to personal preference, it's hard to argue convincingly one way or the other).

Ultimately, I personally enjoy listening to the Ramones more than the 'Pistols, but I see them both as HUGE giants in terms of historical importance. But that said I'd rather listen to The Buzzcocks, Wire, The Fall, The Germs, Black Flag, Television, The Minutemen etc. more than the Ramones or the Sex Pistols combined, but I'd be stupid to deny the influence of both said bands on the music that I have loved and cherished since I "discovered" it when i was fourteen years old.....

[misterdroid]

I get the impression that it's agreed that the British Punk Scene had it's Genesis in the New York Scene. I think as surely as the British Invasion had it's beginnings in American popular music. I won't dismiss the impact of the Sex Pistols on pop culture, just like I can't dismiss the impact of Tupac, or 50 Cent on the mainstream culture of today. As far as credibility, well...

Musically, however, I think that the Sex Pistols were the Herman's Hermits to The Clash's Beatles.

And the Ramones, Iggy Pop, The Velvet Underground, etc were the Bo Diddly, Little Richard, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, etc, etc, etc, to that British Invasion of the late 1970's...

And Malcolm McLaren was just a shadow of Phil Spector...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/9/156...8beb4dd73c.jpghttp://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/..._300x414,0.jpg

This thread is wearing me out. It has travelled to my work and morphed into who had more influence, Grandmaster Flash or NWA... Sort of the same question. One helped create a genre the other changed it overnight.
And I understand the resistance to the Pistols due to the McLaren connection. I feel much the same way about The Velvets and Warhol.
So let's all pick a favorite and ROCK.

ps... Spector's hair is amazing...

[Joe90]

I get the impression that it's agreed that the British Punk Scene had it's Genesis in the New York Scene. I think as surely as the British Invasion had it's beginnings in American popular music. I won't dismiss the impact of the Sex Pistols on pop culture, just like I can't dismiss the impact of Tupac, or 50 Cent on the mainstream culture of today. As far as credibility, well...

Musically, however, I think that the Sex Pistols were the Herman's Hermits to The Clash's Beatles.

And the Ramones, Iggy Pop, The Velvet Underground, etc were the Bo Diddly, Little Richard, Louis Jordan, Chuck Berry, etc, etc, etc, to that British Invasion of the late 1970's...

And Malcolm McLaren was just a shadow of Phil Spector...

[megomonkey]

Ramones vs. the Pistols? Ramones by a 'slide. Most relevant act? Iggy Pop and the Stooges- RAW POWER, BAYYYY-BEEEEE!

[Hulk]

The Ramones by KO early in the second round.