The New Disney Princess

[huedell]

Like I said at the beginning of my first response here, I'm just basing my opinions off of what I read from the other comments here. But how is this:

so much worse or any different than this:

To me?

*Totally* "worse/different".

Leia's outfit was as a prisoner in a well-known movie. Leia had no say in the matter and everyone, kids and adults knows this.

In the Merida example, every adult knows that the Princess move was solely a corporation strategy, and every kid (who have no inkling of such corporate realities) has to swallow that without even realizing the implications of what's going on.

It's a souless company dictating that something makes the most economic sense for their interests.

The Leia thing is a "story point".

[ctc]

>no one has even mentioned the point I brought up about The Black Cauldron which apparently gets no love anywhere, I guess, despite being one of Disneys best animated films.

That’s a weird one though. It wasn’t very popular, and I suspect that was ‘cos it came out at transition point for animation. Stuff was moving towards the boy’s action shows, so an old school lookin’ Disney film seemed anachronistic. There were a few other sword and sorcery, old school style cartoons around that time that didn’t do well either; despite the fantasy boom in the early 80's. I suspect THAT was changing too, as sci-fi became more the thing.

On top of that, the Black Cauldron is an oddity in pacing and script. It’s pretty minimalistic for a cartoon, and it’s halfway between serious and cartoony. That sort of thing makes it tougher to find an audience ‘cos there’s a very small window in which people are open to that. Kids want cartoony, action packed stuff; grownups something more serious and blatant.

>Miridia is no more or less special than any of the other similar character types we've seen in the Disney universe with one exception; she's fat.

I think you’re right, except for the fat part. I didn’t think she was fat at all. It’s weird how we can all look at the same pics and see completely different things. But that’s the nature of the human brain; we all work with different internal definitions and expectations.

>They put her in a dress thats more fitting for a Princess

Kinda. The offending outfit from the new design is closest to the one she wears at the very end of the film, with a smidge of her default green one. But shinier.

>the loss of her bow and arrows

THAT’S more of a big deal I’d say.... but it’s also problematic. Bows are weapons, and parents get antsy about weapons. So I can see them omitting it not as an attempt to princess things up, but as an attempt to draw parental oversight away from the dangerous, pointy things.

>Weapons don't get more phallic than that

....look up the Zande....

>In Brave the princess character was genuinely different.

WAS she? Sure, she fires a bow and defies her mom.... but in the end she comes around. After the big reconciliation we see her and mom working together on a new tapestry; traditional women stuff. We see the princes lined up to impress her, and the part that kinda rubbed me the wrong way was that we see dad.... her biggest supporter.... now engrossed with the boys. Now that Merida’s spending more time with mom.

So it LOOKS different, but I don’t think it strayed too far from the norm. Especially when you consider the stated theme of the story is finding your own destiny, and Merida’s LED THROUGH THE ENTIRE STORY BY THE WISPS! It doesn’t come across that she changed her destiny, just that everyone was wrong about what her destiny actually was. The only decision she made on her own was to poison mom; and that was an uninformed one.

>I don't see why a female character can't be shallow, traditional or subservient, but in the correct context. In a children's story FOR little girls I don't know if there's a place for the old princess anymore.

....but the problem there is you’re STILL limiting options. What becomes the right context? How do you define what’s an acceptable and what’s an unacceptable character? What if, after all your best effort your daughter STILL wants the princess thing? When do you accept, and when do you fight on?

Don C.

[Brazoo]

>In Brave the princess character was genuinely different.

WAS she? Sure, she fires a bow and defies her mom.... but in the end she comes around. After the big reconciliation we see her and mom working together on a new tapestry; traditional women stuff. We see the princes lined up to impress her, and the part that kinda rubbed me the wrong way was that we see dad.... her biggest supporter.... now engrossed with the boys. Now that Merida’s spending more time with mom.

So it LOOKS different, but I don’t think it strayed too far from the norm. Especially when you consider the stated theme of the story is finding your own destiny, and Merida’s LED THROUGH THE ENTIRE STORY BY THE WISPS! It doesn’t come across that she changed her destiny, just that everyone was wrong about what her destiny actually was. The only decision she made on her own was to poison mom; and that was an uninformed one.

We read the movie differently. To me it's an allegory to a lot of the issues we're discussing in this thread.

I think the movie fully acknowledges that Merida is young and that she can't possibly know everything. That's part of what I think is so different about her, she has genuine flaws and she's too young to recognize her flaws. That's a major part of her character's arc, to me.

What Merida DOES know for sure is that she doesn't want to be defined by the same things her mother wants her to be defined by - but then THAT dislike is what starts defining Merida.

For example: Merida is not interested in sewing tapestries, and she especially does not want to sew tapestries just because she's a girl. She ends up being defined by NOT wanting to sew tapestries. Pride fowls her up, because tapestries weren't important to her at all, but she made them very important in a different way. She allowed sewing to taint who she is - because of her pride.

Merida's anger mounts, and she literally makes her mother out to be a monster - represented by the spell - which is not fair, because her mother's values were defined by the times her mother grew up in. It's not really anyone's fault that they can't see eye-to-eye. Times change. That's life. It's not fair to always judge people in the past with the same values we have today. Merida learns this later.

Anyway - I think the ending is perfectly explained by the clues the witch left. To be honest, I can't remember the specifics of the clues right now, but something about "pride" and "mending" were major parts of the clues for sure. Symbolically the mending is the rift Merida caused between her and her mother - literally represented by the tapestry Merida tore. Merida let "pride" become her defining quality - she wants bravery to be her defining quality, but her inexperience and emotions lead her astray.

In the end, I didn't read that Merida has "come around" to being a traditional princess, what I read in those last scenes was that even if Merida doesn't love sewing she truly loves her mother, and sewing a tapestry to celebrate their family is a way they can connect with each other. To me, that's what she comes around to learning at the end. To be defined by the things that are really important to her.

As I said before, I don't think the movie tries to resolve all of these issues perfectly. Sure, it feels like a resolution - it's an animated movie - but I think the movie does leave the lingering concerns in Merida's hands. I think the real ending is that Merida still doesn't know everything, but she'll grow and learn - and hopefully figure more of this out as she goes.

>I don't see why a female character can't be shallow, traditional or subservient, but in the correct context. In a children's story FOR little girls I don't know if there's a place for the old princess anymore.

....but the problem there is you’re STILL limiting options. What becomes the right context? How do you define what’s an acceptable and what’s an unacceptable character? What if, after all your best effort your daughter STILL wants the princess thing? When do you accept, and when do you fight on?

Don C.

First up, I'M not limiting ANY options man! I don't have any power! These are just my opinions of how I see people reacting to these issues.

It's very hard for me to have a clear opinion about why you think your work is being criticized by people, because we're speaking so abstractly about something I'm totally unfamiliar with. As I've already said, in my opinion these things need to be looked at in a case-by-case way because there's no one answer for everything.

What I do know for sure is that context absolutely matters to people. Like, I think people can appreciate "Birth of a Nation" in it's historical context without wishing there were more movies about the heroism of the KKK, if that comparison makes sense. I think people can appreciate a movie about a character who beats his wife, like "Raging Bull", because that movie is about his comeuppance and redemption. It would not be accepted if it was just a movie about LaMotta beating his wife and then ending with the championship match he wins. It's all about context. Is that "limiting"? I don't know. I just think most people don't want to make that movie or see that movie.

How do I define what's acceptable? Right now, I don't think people want new fairy tales depicting a helpless princess and the heroic prince who saves her. I think that time is gone - at least for now. Studios don't make them and audiences don't seem to want them.

What if my daughter still wants a princess? As I've said, my nieces LOVE older cartoons that are extremely out-of-date and politically incorrect. I'm happy to show them those cartoons, maybe I have a blind spot because I love these cartoons so much. I've talked about how old these cartoons are with my nieces, so I assume they appreciate that attitudes were different in different times, but maybe they don't. As much as they love the old stuff, their heroes seem to be the newer cartoons, so I never think the stuff I'm showing them impacts them the same way. Maybe I'm dead wrong. I might be a terrible influence! I hope not!

[ctc]

>what I read in those last scenes was that even if Merida doesn't love sewing she truly loves her mother, and sewing a tapestry to celebrate their family is a way they can connect with each other

That's very true; but mom represented the old way of thinking, and in the end it felt like the ultimate winner was mom. That's the confounding variable for me. It felt askew since we see her doing something mom pushed for.

Don C.

[Brazoo]

>what I read in those last scenes was that even if Merida doesn't love sewing she truly loves her mother, and sewing a tapestry to celebrate their family is a way they can connect with each other

That's very true; but mom represented the old way of thinking, and in the end it felt like the ultimate winner was mom. That's the confounding variable for me. It felt askew since we see her doing something mom pushed for.

Don C.

Well, the queen conceded about forcing Merida's marriage - which was probably the bigger issue - so from your perspective it should at best be a fairly even compromise. No?

I still don't see it that way though, when they were sewing the tapestry of their family together the act of sewing, to me, was secondary to what was going on. I don't think Merida is sewing to make her mom happy, I think Merida appreciated the value of doing something with her mom to celebrate their family together. Again, just my take.