The New Disney Princess

[HardyGirl]

Thanks Hugh. But to be clear, I wasn't saying that b/c I put in my cash, I'm entitled to my POV, (I should be anyway). My point was more that Disney put out a strong character that kids and moms could embrace, and now just b/c they want to make her one of the "princesses", they want to change her appearance to what THEY believe is more princess-like. That's just plain hypocritical. Not to mention a very narrow POV. Princesses are dainty, and pretty and are to be put on a pedestal b/c of that. Baloney! And yeah, they own the character and can ultimately do whatever they want. But they need to understand that as a multi-million dollar corporation that appeals to KIDS, and has done so for decades, they need to understand the impact stuff like this has on kids. And if you think the kids don't matter (but you're crazy if you believe that), then think of the adults you're turning off by doing this. The adults who take their kids to the movies and buy your merchandise are going to be really disenchanted by a company who is so hypocritical.

[toys2cool]

you guys brought up that we start complaining when they change anything on a super heroes costume but when I use the same comparison it's not the same? It's alright i think i've stated my case, i'm a hardcore disney fan and to me it's not a big deal, my wife doesn't care and my niece laughed..so i know it's not just a guy thing...take care guys

[PNGwynne]

I guess all I can say, personally, is: My little niece noticed the difference & didn't like it, and neither do I. Some here feel the changes are slight, I feel they are more substantial.

I think Hardygirl makes a good point about Disney's motives. It's okay for us, or parents, or the media, to analyze and question those motives. Just as much as we, or the media, might question DC's New 52 or Marvel's Ultimates.

[Werewolf]

you guys brought up that we start complaining when they change anything on a super heroes costume but when I use the same comparison it's not the same?

Dismissing people's concerns or complaints over this IS hypocritical considering how comics fans endlessly nitpick stuff to death here. But comparing changing the shape of Batman's or Superman's insignia to the changes made to Meridia's figure is NOT a valid comparison because it does not take into the consideration the cultural concerns and issues of changing her body and appearance.

I remember a while back someone started a thread wondering why more women don't post here. I think the dismissive comments in this thread helps answer that question.

[Zemo]

Kids wouldn't know the difference when they looked at this picture. It is only adults that make the issues of this because their bored.

If people used half the energy they put into things like this, for actual issues that mattered, the world might be a better and safer place to live.

You bet!!

[Zemo]

Dismissing people's concerns or complaints over this IS hypocritical considering how comics fans endlessly nitpick stuff to death here. But comparing changing the shape of Batman's or Superman's insignia to the changes made to Meridia's figure is NOT a valid comparison because it does not take into the consideration the cultural concerns and issues of changing her body and appearance.

I remember a while back someone started a thread wondering why more women don't post here. I think the dismissive comments in this thread helps answer that question.

That's apple's and oranges.

[toys2cool]

Oh come on now, women not posting more here has nothing to do with stuff like this...are you kidding me? women don't post here as much because the majority of members here are guys....if agreeing that I don't see that big of a deal with the change or not having a problem with it, makes me look like "sexist to some" then so be it, you can't please everyone , I'm not...I just don't honestly see the big deal, sexier & prettier obviously makes more money and that's why Disney's making the move...She's wearing a dress that doesn't show anything, I don't remember people complaining about The Little mermaid Ariel..she was what 15? and wearing shells to cover her boobs...and Jasmin with her half nude outfits, and yet no one had a problem with that..all the princesses should be as pretty as possible because that's every girl wants to be

Now if you tell me they changed something like nemos little fin, or making Quasimodo in to a hunk with a six-pack then I could see the outrage because you're changing a disability , but changing a dress, a thinner waist and not carrying a bow?? To me and only "me" it's not a big deal

[babycyclops]

By making these changes Disney are defining or reinforcing what 'pretty' is.
I like about 2% of what Disney does anyway, so my opinion is already set, this just reinforces the reasons why I stay away from most Disney product.

As for why this is a topic of discussion at all.... well hot-button political issues are not really open for discussion here; but cartoons and toys are.
This issue touches on topics of body image and gender. Why do companies like Disney help sell fatty foods and soft drinks with toy give-aways and happy-meals, while at the same time reinforcing narrow definitions of beauty.

[ctc]

>Disney put out a strong character that kids and moms could embrace, and now just b/c they want to make her one of the "princesses", they want to change her appearance to what THEY believe is more princess-like

Hmmmm.... I think part of the dilemma here is that everybody's focussing on JUST the appearance. Isn't there more to the character than that? Have they changed any of her personality? (It's the Superman's undies qunundrum: if the character is so shallow that such a small change makes a dif, how much of a character ARE they?)

I don't see a huge dif between the designs, other than the newer one has been brought more in line with the standard ones.... an act I still feel has more to do with standardized production than pushing any sort of ideology. 'Course then it becomes more chicken and egg: does their aligning towards a standardized concept of "attractive" represent some sort of scheme on their end, or is it them ascribing to the social norm so's to sell more product?

>or making Quasimodo in to a hunk with a six-pack

They did that. He was called "Helios" or somesuch. And to be fair, I remember a LOT of outrage over that one.

>Not every Disney leading lady becomes a princess.

....not YET....

>If Disney is going to bestow this honor on Merida, then it should be the way she is

You're not wrong, from a fan point of view.... but I think you have to remember that the whole "Princess" thing was a way for Disney to rebrand a bunch of their old properties. It's easy to call shenannegains on them because it really IS a case of shenannegains on their end. BUT; they're a megacorp, that's what they do. It's not about audeince gratification; that's a means to an end. It FEELS like it is, to us, the audience.... but that's 'cos we ascribe things to the characters, stories and films we like that isn't neccessarily there. Like the Big Two-ish on the superhero end, Disney can and will rebrand their stuff into whatever form the think will sell. They're not characters, they're product. It's ALWAYS been like that. In some ways Merida got off lucky with a sparkly skirt.... when Tinkerbell finally got a voice she went from an uppity, assertive, selfish character to a generic giggly, girly action hero.

Don C.

[huedell]

You're not wrong, from a fan point of view.... but I think you have to remember that the whole "Princess" thing was a way for Disney to rebrand a bunch of their old properties. It's easy to call shenannegains on them because it really IS a case of shenannegains on their end. BUT; they're a megacorp, that's what they do. It's not about audeince gratification; that's a means to an end. It FEELS like it is, to us, the audience.... but that's 'cos we ascribe things to the characters, stories and films we like that isn't neccessarily there. Like the Big Two-ish on the superhero end, Disney can and will rebrand their stuff into whatever form the think will sell. They're not characters, they're product. It's ALWAYS been like that. In some ways Merida got off lucky with a sparkly skirt.... when Tinkerbell finally got a voice she went from an uppity, assertive, selfish character to a generic giggly, girly action hero.

I think you Don, along with everyone else that is bucking the ones affected by this, are missing the point that regardless of whether we see the character more as a "fan" thing or as a "product" thing, that there's huge irony here that anyone would tell us to (cue Shatner voice) "Get a life" on a board full of superhero and sci fi nerds who don't get slammed this hard for having a strong opinion based on a character aspect change.

Granted, if you were to look at this solely as "product" then people like t2cool would have a point when they give their Batman comparison and in THAT regard, I retract what I said about there being absolutely no connection between an insignia change for Batman and Merida's uncharacteristic image makeover.

However, the whole dismissive attitude to the point of "the world might be a better and safer place to live" ("better" AND -----"SAFER"!)... and it even got an "Amen", well, it's ludicrous. Geez, slam an opinion if you must, but putting the world's safety in jeopardy in your statement is a bit much, when all these Disney fans want to do is save a character's potential value as a role model from being exponentially diminished.

T2cool's neice may laugh at the idea that this could happen through a makeover that takes away key elements of the character's persona, but there are also neices that will ask questions that will place a parent in a rough spot. Parents will have to explain why this character wasn't fine the way she was and she needed a makeover in spite of the movie's moral message.

Or worse yet, parents will feel hypocritical themselves when buying Disney product, because they don't like the message Disney is constantly pushing the parameters on. If your answer is "Fine. Don't buy it. Go somewhere else for your entertainment." Well, its just a shame that has to happen in the first place. And there are indeed many spurnned parents that WILL choose other company's heroines to replace the Disney ones over time (although now Princess Leia becomes a questionable respite!)

In the end, you "detractors of the detractors" are the winners, because as Don mentioned, it's all about the dollars when come to what ideas are embraced and what are trashed by the mainstream. But that "mainstream" we're talkin' about here.

How about here at the Museum? Sometimes I'd like to think that as intelligent and practical as the majority of posters here are, that they can at least see these debates from the POV of the ones being negatively affected, theones to who dollars men absolutely nothing to in this context. The posters here don't have to agree with the idea that this stuff should be handled differently than how Disney sees fit. But at least the posters should see the value in the arguments made by people who want more from their favorite corporations than the big money grab ALL THE TIME and forever.

But now i see that what I'd "sometimes like to think" isn't the reality here, as there many people here who would rather dismiss this stance altogether. No acknowlegement of good ethics, no nothin'.

Well, you know what they say: "It is what it is."

[huedell]

Oh come on now, women not posting more here has nothing to do with stuff like this...are you kidding me? women don't post here as much because the majority of members here are guys....if agreeing that I don't see that big of a deal with the change or not having a problem with it, makes me look like "sexist to some" then so be it, you can't please everyone , I'm not...I just don't honestly see the big deal, sexier & prettier obviously makes more money and that's why Disney's making the move...She's wearing a dress that doesn't show anything, I don't remember people complaining about The Little mermaid Ariel..she was what 15? and wearing shells to cover her boobs...and Jasmin with her half nude outfits, and yet no one had a problem with that..all the princesses should be as pretty as possible because that's every girl wants to be

No one SHOULD be complaining about Ariel's shells or Jasmin's ****ty wardrobe.

This is not about nudity or any other "sexual" type thing alone.

Ariel was a mermaid, so she wore shells. Jasmin was a Middle East chick so she wore outfits that showed more skin becauase they kept her cool in the heat. Meridia was a tomboyesque character whose defining stuff did not include becoming a Princess with a high-end wardrobe. Out of the three examples, Meridia is the one who was altered.

It's not like putting Ariel in a business suit, but it's along the same lines.

[huedell]

Thanks Hugh. But to be clear, I wasn't saying that b/c I put in my cash, I'm entitled to my POV, (I should be anyway)....

Apologies for confusing the issue by trying to paraphrase your "more money than they should legally be allowed to make" quip. I saw that as witty hyperbole and was riffing on that. And BTW apologies if you weren't really joking when you made that statement. Either way, I liked reading it!

My point was more that Disney put out a strong character that kids and moms could embrace, and now just b/c they want to make her one of the "princesses", they want to change her appearance to what THEY believe is more princess-like. That's just plain hypocritical....

I essentially agree with you there. Obviously we feel more alike than "not alike" on the subject. My greatest qualm is more summed up with messing with a character's core than an overall Princess/"beauty" issue that Disney could be seen as being toxic with.

As you and I both agree, we realize that Disney can do whatever the heck they want to make money... we just don't think it's a sensible decision as far as issues of hypocrisy be they about the character or women's image issues in general.

Personally? I'm all for women being whatever they want to be. So if Jasmin wants to dress "hot" who am I to say she's a bad influence on kids? Even if that WAS the case, I don't want to be that guy that figuratively/theoretically "takes away the freedom of choice from another" by being judge and jury... and as funny as it sounds, that applies to fictional characters, as well as "real" people.

[ctc]

>there's huge irony here that anyone would tell us to (cue Shatner voice) "Get a life" on a board full of superhero and sci fi nerds

I say it.... well, imply it anyhoo.... all the time.

Say; maybe that's why I have no friends. *sniff*

>there are also neices that will ask questions that will place a parent in a rough spot. Parents will have to explain why this character wasn't fine the way she was and she needed a makeover

Maybe; but I think even more won't notice. Kids will have already locked into "their" idea of the character, and this change will be absorbed into that. Kinda like how folks of our age can reconcile the Dark Knight AND the "POW! BAM!" Batmans. (BatMEN?) I also don't know if the whole beauty standard thing is as much an issue for the kids as for us. OUR generation was one of the first to be big on the tolerance and equality issue; so it's still a sticking point for us, since we can easily remember times when it was a big problem. But the kids today, three or four generations removed have grown up with a stronger sense of equality. Sure there are still problems, but I think there are more solutions. Plus, the kids coming up now had a lot of female characters who were just as badass as the males; I think that's one reason stuff like Naruto and Bleach have such large female fan bases. It's not weird to see a female action star.... hence the "where's her bow?" question from the young'uns.

>at least the posters should see the value in the arguments made by people who want more from their favorite corporations than the big money grab ALL THE TIME and forever

That's a sticking point for me. You can definitely take that position, but ultimately Disney IS a big company, and their characters are franchaises.... so it's inevitable that they're gonna get remixed depending on what the marketing dictates. It's not a question of not maiiung the money grab; they're a corporation, corporations don't have morals or perspectives; the money grab is the sole purpose they exist. And you CAN argue that maybe the people can make moral decisions, but as anyone who's ever dealt with a big corp knows; there's a whole slew of processes in place the minimalize the effects of the individual. (And not out of a sense of evil; it's what happens to an entity that exists solely for profit.)

So there's a weird undercurrent that happens in cases like this. Meridia herself isn't the product of someone's imagination, who penned a story, and has definite goals and ideas for the character.... she was created by dozens, if not hundreds of people, for the purpose of making money. Someone pitched the story, which was then vetted by the producers and executives who finally agreed on a story they thought would sell. She then went through a design process, which probably involved no less than ten people.... juggling designs against a sellable image, and what would work CGI. The script was written and rewritten by the writing department, probably another dozen folks.... and sent for storyboards, pacing, test marketing, revisions.... What we get is ALREADY a corporate conglomerate. So we may enjoy what we get at any given point, but you can't REALLY be surprised when that changes. (Just like Superheroes....)

...but we ARE, because we see the end result as an entity unto itself, and every later permutation is compared to said entity. That part's normal. It's also why folks tend to lose interest in stuff and move on. But it's a bit of personal smoke and mirrors.

>Out of the three examples, Meridia is the one who was altered

Yeah.... but not that much. I think we see it as more drastic 'cos of my aforementioned point: that we were brought up more aware of such things.

Don C.

[BlackKnight]

Oh come on now, women not posting more here has nothing to do with stuff like this...are you kidding me? women don't post here as much because the majority of members here are guys....if agreeing that I don't see that big of a deal with the change or not having a problem with it, makes me look like "sexist to some" then so be it, you can't please everyone , I'm not...I just don't honestly see the big deal, sexier & prettier obviously makes more money and that's why Disney's making the move...She's wearing a dress that doesn't show anything, I don't remember people complaining about The Little mermaid Ariel..she was what 15? and wearing shells to cover her boobs...and Jasmin with her half nude outfits, and yet no one had a problem with that..all the princesses should be as pretty as possible because that's every girl wants to be

Now if you tell me they changed something like nemos little fin, or making Quasimodo in to a hunk with a six-pack then I could see the outrage because you're changing a disability , but changing a dress, a thinner waist and not carrying a bow?? To me and only "me" it's not a big deal

No ..
I Agree with U 150% Brother.

[Werewolf]

However, the whole dismissive attitude to the point of "the world might be a better and safer place to live" ("better" AND -----"SAFER"!)... and it even got an "Amen", well, it's ludicrous. Geez, slam an opinion if you must, but putting the world's safety in jeopardy in your statement is a bit much, when all these Disney fans want to do is save a character's potential value as a role model from being exponentially diminished.

I think that is the most telling part of this whole thing.

It's not that some people are disagreeing with those that may have issues with the changes. It's the dismissive and condescending way they are going about it. The attitude that the issue shouldn't even be allowed to be discussed and some how even the act of discussing it makes the world less safe. While giving each other amens and verbally high fiving each other. All this in place that is filled with people nitpicking characters, comics and movies they like/care about on a daily basis.

I find it all a bit depressing.