Batman: The Killing Joke gets limited theatrical release

[libby 1957dog]

^I have nothing but the greatest admiration for Timm...but the guy's got a dirty mind.

I have some of his art books. He likes to draw LOTS of naked women in his cartoony style. So knowing that...you give him an "R" rating, and a story that's already very "adults only" and this was bound to happen.

As I said, he really already went there with Bruce and Barbara. It was only mentioned in Batman Beyond by the older Babs, but they had a relationship. Clearly, it was a physical one. So it's part of the sacred BTAS continuity...like it or not. And honestly, I never really have.

Chris

[Earth 2 Chris]

^I have nothing but the greatest admiration for Timm...but the guy's got a dirty mind.

I have some of his art books. He likes to draw LOTS of naked women in his cartoony style. So knowing that...you give him an "R" rating, and a story that's already very "adults only" and this was bound to happen.

As I said, he really already went there with Bruce and Barbara. It was only mentioned in Batman Beyond by the older Babs, but they had a relationship. Clearly, it was a physical one. So it's part of the sacred BTAS continuity...like it or not. And honestly, I never really have.

Chris

[Hedji]

Could it be that Bruce Timm is "loosing it" the way creators like George Lucas have been accused? Timm has always been so revered and untouchable.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^To me, Batman and Son deserved an "R" rating for the first 5 minutes of ridiculous blood-letting action. It wasn't very mature, but it was totally over the top.

Chris

[Nostalgiabuff]

over all I really liked the movie. I even liked the prologue but the sex scene was definitely not necessary. I don't think the R rating was necessary either, even with the sex scene. they did not show anything more than her bra, big deal. they could have easily gotten the normal pg13 on this but I think they wanted an R rating to say, "see we are cool and edgy too". either way, I liked the movie and would not give an negative spin on it. the animation was good, the voice cast perfect.

I have not read the graphic novel since it came out, but I think I will have to dig it out and give it another read

[samurainoir]

Maybe this proves, you can't go home again. The creators are obviously more interested in more adult material, and the fans just want more BTAS. Why anyone thought you'd get that with the very adult and disturbing Killing Joke story, I'm not sure, but their new material has compounded the issues with that story, rather than solve them, for many at least.

Chris

I'm in complete agreement that the new material here has just simply increased the problematic aspects of the original story, but I do think Warner Animation has had great success with adapting mature content in the past few years. I quite enjoyed Under the Red Hood, Batman Year 1, Batman The Dark Knight, Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin for example. But I think there are lines that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to Batman, and to me, Killing Joke worked best when it remained suggestive and open to interpretation as the original source material was, rather than explicit. Leave it up to each individual's imagination in terms of what happened off-screen during Joker's assault on Barbara. Likewise, the speculation around whether or not Batman snaps Joker's neck immediately following the end scene gains some really powerful impact as an IDEA, again because it exists purely in the imagined realm as possibility. To some, that is rather on point with Batman's opening and closing monologue, as the logical outcome, whereas others see it as a forbidden desired outcome on Batman's part, that will never happen in the unending circular nature of their relationship being deconstructed in this story. Joker's "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" as the path of the reader/viewer.

[The Bat]

Maybe this proves, you can't go home again. The creators are obviously more interested in more adult material, and the fans just want more BTAS. Why anyone thought you'd get that with the very adult and disturbing Killing Joke story, I'm not sure

Chris

Excellent point Chris.

[Earth 2 Chris]

I love Timm's work, but he really needs to stop throwing the word "parent" around in regards to this. That takes the ick factor to the point of no return. I never thought of Batman as a parental figure to Barbara. She has a father in Jim Gordon, obviously. He's her boss...and she's usually freelance. That makes this less deplorable. Timm isn't the type who worries about how his words are interpreted, but he should have phrased that differently, for sure.

Maybe this proves, you can't go home again. The creators are obviously more interested in more adult material, and the fans just want more BTAS. Why anyone thought you'd get that with the very adult and disturbing Killing Joke story, I'm not sure, but their new material has compounded the issues with that story, rather than solve them, for many at least.

Chris

[MIB41]

Timm noted in the interview that he wasn't shocked at the reaction to the scene. "We were aware that it's a little risky. There's definitely some stuff in that first part of the movie that's going to be controversial. Here's where we came down on that specific issue: It was really important to us to show that both of the characters make some pretty big mistakes. I mean, his 'parental skills' aren't that great. Maybe never having had any kids of his own, he doesn't realize that if you tell a kid to not do something, they’re going to want to do it even more. And then she makes some mistakes and then he kind of overreacts to her mistakes and then she overreacts to his overreaction. So it's very human; it's a very understandable story. It's tricky because it's messy, because relationships are sometimes messy.

You know I really don't want any pop-psychology lessons from Timm because it sounds like his interpretations of "real" are pretty flighty. First Bruce Wayne raised Dick Grayson from a relatively early age and was his mentor. Whether he had "good parenting" skills is a pretty soft issue here since we're not talking real life circumstances. But to wrap it in this vein of "misunderstanding" because Dick is not his true blood son is the dumbest reasoning I have ever heard. It's also a cheap shot at every step parent in the world. Idiot. And his casual description of Wayne's role to Barbara is just off the wall. He essentially excuses Wayne because Barbara is making mistakes in her judgement so he's reacting to them in a similar vein which, according to Timm, gives him a "pass" because relationships are "messy"? WHAT?! So his accountability is null and void because he's a lousy parent thereby making it "understandable" for him to get aroused at the most inappropriate of moments? What a moron. Timm sounds like a person who needs to have his own head assessed. And this disturbed individual is scripting for these superheroes? Dear Lord...

[samurainoir]

appears that the producers anticipated the uncomfortable ICK factor of Batman as a parental figure having sex with Batgirl, and just went full steam with it.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/bruce-timm-on-the-risky-batman-batgirl-sex-scene-in-the-killing-joke

Bruce Timm

Timm noted in the interview that he wasn't shocked at the reaction to the scene. "We were aware that it's a little risky. There's definitely some stuff in that first part of the movie that's going to be controversial. Here's where we came down on that specific issue: It was really important to us to show that both of the characters make some pretty big mistakes. I mean, his 'parental skills' aren't that great. Maybe never having had any kids of his own, he doesn't realize that if you tell a kid to not do something, they’re going to want to do it even more. And then she makes some mistakes and then he kind of overreacts to her mistakes and then she overreacts to his overreaction. So it's very human; it's a very understandable story. It's tricky because it's messy, because relationships are sometimes messy.

[LonnieFisher]

I thought The Killing Joke sucked. I pretty much hated everything about it. Batman seems more like a villain than a hero. Babs seems like a bully. Not heroic at all for either of them.

[MIB41]

^^^ I think your reserves really sum up how I feel. I think graphic novels are suitable for that target audience. But when the studios make them into animated features, I don't think retailers are really informed as to the nature of their content and so they too often get placed next to G-rated features in the kiddy isle. A prime example is Flashpoint. So it really leaves you wondering if retailers would elect to carry the title at all if they understood it's content, which in turn leads consumers to make ill informed decisions in buying the product based on it's location with kid friendly merchandise. Plus one does not typically look for a rating on an animated title featuring a predominantly G-rated hero. Another reason why I say the studio needs to be careful messing with the branding.

[Earth 2 Chris]

^I see your point Tom, but there's really no way to adapt The Killing Joke and make it suitable to all audiences. You can argue they should have just left it alone, and you can make the argument, and one I've started to agree with more and more over the years, that these characters shouldn't even be put in situations that aren't all ages appropriate.

Chris

[MIB41]

I definitely get the impression Warner Bros made a conscious choice to brand their DC movies edgier and darker to run contrary to type in this genre. I don't see where that has garnered them added market share. If anything it's demonstrated, once again, how little they understand the license and it's audience. They've taken a property and (in this instance) a time established story that artistically should have been a no-brainer to develop and created divisive elements where none were needed. The sad part is they cater to stereotypes that demean and demoralize these characters. It's as if they are ashamed of the license and feel some need to amp up it's perceived 'relevance' with adult themes that quite honestly amplify it's more juvenile undertones. If the costume now has to become a focal point to contribute and/or elicit sexual tension for purposes of character building, it really muddies the water in terms of finding their moral compass and reason for existing on principle.

It's not difficult nor uncharacteristic to explore social themes in these stories. I just think the meter of common sense is every bit as applicable here. Know your audience and understand the difference between shock value for story purposes versus brand messaging that carries it's own importance and consequences. People love their heroes. But having Batgirl straddle Batman while he grabs her rear in a cartoon does nothing, in my book, to elicit maturity. It caters to all the misguided notions that sexual situations somehow equate to a more diverse and expansive audience. In truth, I believe it tarnishes the brand and divides the audience. And when you're talking about characters like Batman that have broad appeal to all age groups, especially in a format like a animated feature, I think Warner Bros really does themselves a disservice by skewing the consumer in an attempt to play with the tonality of script.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Well, my theater was packed, and everyone was confused at first because THE SOUND WENT OUT! So when pics of Hamill and Lucas popped up, we were REALLY befuddled. Luckily it came back in before Hamill was finished talking, but I myself felt a beat cheated.

I'm not a fan of the Bruce/Barbara relationship in any iteration either, BUT, they had more of a flirtation early on than Dick/Babs. Barbara was close to 10 years older than Robin when she debuted, after all. A little time, and oddly enough, the Animated Series were the factors that slowly brought their ages closer together. But that same series, voiced by these same actors (at least in later seasons where Tara Strong took over the Batgirl role) eventually told us that Bruce/Barbara had a relationship. If one wanted to, you could diverge the animated timeline in this film. The Batmobiles in this film are even very close to the BTAS/TNBA models.

I agree, the sex scene would have worked better had it been implied, and cut away from with the kiss, or Batman embracing her. There was more of a "whoa" out of my audience than laughter at these scenes.

If this were in anything but The Killing Joke, I could understand the outrage a bit more. I can understand a bit of controversy over it, but people losing their crap enough to yell at convention panelists is a bit much. The Killing Joke comic never sets up Barbara. She's in Gordon's apartment, opens a door, and is brutally shot and photographed to torture her father. She shows up later just to tell Batman how scary the Joker is. If you don't have a fundamental problem with that VERY adult and disturbing material, why should anyone have such a snit over sex between two consenting adults?

The producers are probably wishing they hadn't done the sex scene now, but it's still odd that few have a problem with the disturbing and horrific torture elements of the actual story it's based on.

I bought The Killing Joke comic when it came out. I hated to see what happened to Barbara, but I couldn't deny the quality of the storytelling, even at age 13. Over the years, I've grown a bit divided on how I feel about it. Now thanks to all the hoopla, I'm divided even more.

Chris