Fantastic Four casting rumors

[MIB41]

What I hate most about all this PC casting is, it's completely one sided. If any studio DARED cast the Falcon, or Power Man, Robbie Robertson or James Rhodes as white, we'd never hear the end of it, even though there's nothing specific to any of those characters that dictates they be black. It's always okay as long as it's a white character being replaced by another race. Nick Fury, Kingpin, Heimdall, Perry White, and soon Electro, all fine.

And the thing is I like characters like the Falcon and Power Man to be exactly as they are as well. And if they create more characters with different backgrounds, that's great. I would never be against that idea. But this argument that I'm suppose to apologize for my own heritage of heroes and "step aside" so someone else can play the role is something I will never endorse. In my eyes, these are not mindless folks running around in costumes. If it's only about the costume, then they cease to have meaning.

[ctc]

>While their ethnic backgrounds may seem to have nothing to do with the character that simply isn't true. These characters are very well developed and shaped from ALL of their experiences from birth to present day and then to what they believe the future has to hold.

You're not wrong, but circumstances change over time and that changes the nature of such things. It ties in with my comments about the ethnicity of Marvel New York. In the real world, NY is pretty diverse. In early Marvel it was all white guys (mostly in hats for some reason) 'cos that's just how you drew stuff back then. The people working on the comics got their start in an era when showing a black dude as hero would have freaked people out. That carried over into earlry Marvel.... not 'cos of racism I suspect but inertia: you get used to doing something and it gets hard to stop. Hence why most Marvel heroes are white. In New York.

Nowadays things are a bit different. I don't think anybody would be surprised to see a black guy super scientist. It wouldn't register with the majority of the populace. So there's no reason Reed COULDN'T be black, or asian, or Italian, or a woman. It wasn't a big part of the character then, it's still not. It FEELS like it is, 'cos the mental image you carry around is a white guy; but even THAT'S due in no small part to inertia.

Ideally, if you wanted to diversify things you'd do it with new characters, but that's not going to happen. Studios know people will pay more to see known properties (even if they're doctored up) then they will for unknown. They're not making another FF movie because THIS is the GREATEST STORY EVER and MUST be told, for the good of all humanity; they're doing it 'cos folks will follow the name. Add the propensity of the oldster fans to poo poo anything new and you leave the studios in a bind.

>If any studio DARED cast the Falcon, or Power Man, Robbie Robertson or James Rhodes as white, we'd never hear the end of it

There's catches with that, too. One is that you really don't need to ADD white dudes to the Marvel universe. That's one reason they change the ethnicity of some characters for film, to make it better resemble what the audience sees around them. In some cases it's problematic: Robbie or James, not a big deal. Again, their ethnicity isn't a big part of their character. Falcon or Power Man is trickier, since both are based on the old 70's Blacksploitation template. So in that regard their ethnicity IS part of their character, even though that part is somewhat antiquated these days.

Don C.

[jimsmegos]

> Ideally, if you wanted to diversify things you'd do it with new characters, but that's not going to happen. Studios know people will pay more to see known properties (even if they're doctored up) then they will for unknown. They're not making another FF movie because THIS is the GREATEST STORY EVER and MUST be told, for the good of all humanity; they're doing it 'cos folks will follow the name. Add the propensity of the oldster fans to poo poo anything new and you leave the studios in a bind.

I understand all of that and can't argue the logic, but I'm just saddened that none of the big studios aren't willing to look for another "Stan Lee / Jack Kirby" team that could indeed create a new set of characters and situations. From a profit stand point, if they could pull off a great story and film with all new stuff I would think that would lend to more clear NEW profit streams.

[ctc]

>if they could pull off a great story and film with all new stuff I would think that would lend to more clear NEW profit streams

Normally I'd agree, except I see how readily folks will lose fluids over YET ANOTHER Batman film, and how different stuff gets NO mention. Not just here, but all over. Something new COULD be a hit, but we're not going to get it until the studios are COMPLETELY desperate. (If I hear about a movie exec killing themselves over their last pic I'll believe we're nearing that point.)

>I'm just saddened that none of the big studios aren't willing to look for another "Stan Lee / Jack Kirby" team that could indeed create a new set of characters and situations

Yeah, but it's not the studios alone; it's also the fans. There IS new, different stuff out there.... LOTS of it, but it stays in the background 'cos everyone's wondering who's gonna play Dr Doom THIS TIME, or what story the next Batman film is SORT OF going to adapt.... You see it all the time, on the internets, on entertainmetn shows, even the real news if it's a slow day. TONS of people are making their own tv shows and movies, and comics online. A lot of them are damned good, but folks are gun shy about trying them. ('Cos.... I guess.... the ten minutes of your life it'd take up to try one is MUCH more valuable than the next four days of ranting over the last issue of X-Men....)

The big studios AREN'T pushing any kind of agenda, or trying to intentionally defame your heroes, or raping your childhood so your tears can feed Ba'al.... they're producing what they think the sudience wants. And EVERYBODY whines and haws over how out of touch they are, and yet EVERY MOVIE is #1 for at least a week, and we've been seeing box office records fall like dominoes for years now. All they care about is pandering to the audience, and their level of success implies they know us better than WE do.

Don C.

[enyawd72]

Here's the problem with that ctc...

I know there's new stuff out there. I'm not interested in it, and I shouldn't need to be. I have plenty of characters that I already like. I just want to see those characters done right. That's it. It's not difficult.
What amazes me the most about so many of these comic movies is that comics are basically movie storyboards in and of themselves. Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel all the time, somebody should just hand the director a copy of Amazing Spider-Man #121 for example, and say, here's your script, complete with dialog and costume designs already done. Shoot it.

[Brazoo]

Well said Jim! I think it's a given that when we were kids, we only dreamt of a reality where we could see movies made about our heroes on the big screen with big budgets and big name actors. But not at the cost of who they are, what they look like, or even what they represent. Most countries take pride in their cultural traditions which are not subject to interpretation like we do here. While some may consider a "hero" to be little more than dispensable entertainment. The truth is most people connect with their heroes on a very personal level. Unfortunately Hollywood is run by liberal, special interest groups who have a well documented history of wanting to wipe the slate clean in favor of their own interpretation. Sadly our country is becoming a collection of sheep who feel compelled to lower our heads and allow others to dictate, less we run the risk of "hurting" someone's feelings. Equality comes from respecting one another, not stepping aside to be manipulated. Unfortunately when I look at the direction these films (and animated features) are going, they cease to be about the characters I knew or even tread on familiar themes that reflect the values these characters use to embody. The capes are little more than window dressing to grandstand someone's personal ideals on a society who should be more aware of the messenging going on here.

I'm side stepping your political commentary for my own sanity and out of respect for the fact that we are repeatedly asked to try to keep things non-political on these forums...

To me you're entirely missing the point. The whole issue is that nobody making these movies cares about anything about what you're talking about. These movies have nothing to do with "cultural traditions", these movies are just products based on brands with high Q scores.

These movies aren't products of YOUR country - they're paid for by global enterprises, produced by people all around the world, for a global market. Nobody really cares about where the characters originated - American domestic distribution is only one piece of the pie.

The whole feeling that you have, that Hollywood movies are about documenting American culture - that Hollywood movies elevate the importance of your heroic ideals - that's just another sales pitch you happen to buy into. These characters ARE entirely disposable to the corporations who make them. If superheroes stop selling they're going to jump to whatever else will fit the demographics they're looking for quicker than you can say 'Krypton'.

I think it's fine if people enjoy these movies - I enjoy some of them myself - but they're roller-coaster rides. It's probably sad that movies like the ones you're talking about aren't getting made, but the real issues are miles away from what color The Human Torch's skin is.

[MIB41]

The big studios AREN'T pushing any kind of agenda, or trying to intentionally defame your heroes, or raping your childhood so your tears can feed Ba'al.... they're producing what they think the audience wants. And EVERYBODY whines and haws over how out of touch they are, and yet EVERY MOVIE is #1 for at least a week, and we've been seeing box office records fall like dominoes for years now. All they care about is pandering to the audience, and their level of success implies they know us better than WE do.

Don C.

I can't embrace the notion that because a couple of films like Avengers and Iron Man 3 (which fed off Avengers) made big money suggests studios have it's core audience figured out. With the exception of Iron Man, Cap and Thor were very modest hits domestically and overseas. The Hulk has yet to be profitable as a stand alone franchise. Ghost Rider flopped. Daredevil flopped. The Wolverine movies have been very disappointing domestically. The original FF movies were not all that well received either. And if you look a little further down the hero genre, the Lone Ranger is on par to be one of the biggest flops since the last big disgrace which was John Carter. All of these fit the hero format and cost studios big money. The Spider-man reboot has not reached the levels of any of the previous totals achieved in the Raimi trilogy. And Man of Steel, which was directed by Zack Snyder (who bombed with the Watchmen), needed overseas numbers to make that project profitable. So I would never claim studios 'know' it's audience all that well. If anything, it could be argued that such popular licenses have never reached their full potential simply because of all the tinkering going on. Let these characters breath as they were originally intended and we could see considerably better results.

[hedrap]

In early Marvel it was all white guys (mostly in hats for some reason) 'cos that's just how you drew stuff back then. The people working on the comics got their start in an era when showing a black dude as hero would have freaked people out. That carried over into earlry Marvel.... not 'cos of racism I suspect but inertia: you get used to doing something and it gets hard to stop. Hence why most Marvel heroes are white. In New York.

Nowadays things are a bit different. I don't think anybody would be surprised to see a black guy super scientist. It wouldn't register with the majority of the populace. So there's no reason Reed COULDN'T be black, or asian, or Italian, or a woman. It wasn't a big part of the character then, it's still not. It FEELS like it is, 'cos the mental image you carry around is a white guy; but even THAT'S due in no small part to inertia.

Don, you know I respect your opinion, but that statement is totally inaccurate. Modern politically correct, diversity groupthink has led people to think that statement is an accurate reflection of New York in the '30-mid '70's, but it's not even close. My parents were raised in the same period and the same boroughs as all the major comic players. The FF represented the diversity of that period; Reed's a Brit, the Storms are Irish, Ben was either Italian or Jewish. That was dominantly New York. The latino and black populations were miniscule, let alone Asian, so to not build a cast around those groups wasn't an issue of inertia, it's that groupthink today only recognizes diversity through broad strokes.

That, in turn, has made the diversity cause a caricature which perfectly lends itself to stereotype casting through "good intentions". It was good intentions that made MC Duncan the Kingpin, but it was blind groupthink that made them unaware they were implying black businessmen, no matter how successful, were still gangstas at heart. Same thing with Jordan as Torch. They'll cast a black guy as the emotional hothead, but not other roles. Why? Because if its Sue or Reed, you have a biracial relationship which does not sell at all - internationally. That's a dirty little secret the studios don't want out, along with the fact that only one or two black male leads play well outside the States. As for casting a black guy as Grimm, they won't do it because it they're afraid it dilutes Luke Cage's IP value and the themes of The Thing can be interpreted as too contextually racial for studio PC sensibilities.

Ideally, if you wanted to diversify things you'd do it with new characters, but that's not going to happen. Studios know people will pay more to see known properties (even if they're doctored up) then they will for unknown. They're not making another FF movie because THIS is the GREATEST STORY EVER and MUST be told, for the good of all humanity; they're doing it 'cos folks will follow the name. Add the propensity of the oldster fans to poo poo anything new and you leave the studios in a bind.

In the case of the FF, that's not correct. They're doing it because they're contractually obligated if they want to keep the property. The old Marvel deals were en perpetuity, so the studios had to have some level of development occurring to keep the rights. Once Marvel secured their own financing, they started looking for loopholes, which is how they got Iron Man back. Now, the studios now its crap-or-get-off-the-pot with Marvel. Fox found this out with Daredevil recently. Once their last development staged fizzled, Marvel reclaimed it. While they're not pushing to get Spidey or the X properties back because they stay in production, they would take the FF back in a second.

One is that you really don't need to ADD white dudes to the Marvel universe. That's one reason they change the ethnicity of some characters for film, to make it better resemble what the audience sees around them. In some cases it's problematic: Robbie or James, not a big deal. Again, their ethnicity isn't a big part of their character. Falcon or Power Man is trickier, since both are based on the old 70's Blacksploitation template. So in that regard their ethnicity IS part of their character, even though that part is somewhat antiquated these days.

Don C.

But that goes right back to the original issue. PC groupthink isn't "celebrating diversity", its grouping people based on marketing demographics. The attempt to pan-racialize every group into large blockades is not character exploration. Japanese do not identify with Chinese, so if the new Godzilla film cast a Hong Kong actor instead of Ken Wattanbe, that would have caused a problem. Now true, it's dependent on the story, so in the case of the FF its appears easy because they've been homogenized Americans in every medium. But that requires a definition of American and Marvel has shown time and time again, like the majority of the studios, they have no interest in showcasing Americana. So when studios diversify a group, they're not doing it as metaphor of America as melting pot. It's done to chastize and correct what the diversity groups, (who studios do run their projects by during development), as cultural hegemony, dressed up as change.

Now, this is before we even get into the idea of casting 20 year olds and what that means for the FF.

[MIB41]

To me you're entirely missing the point. The whole issue is that nobody making these movies cares about anything about what you're talking about. These movies have nothing to do with "cultural traditions", these movies are just products based on brands with high Q scores.

Pop culture is very much a part of tradition in this country and others. And all countries have their heroes. Captain America was not born with Saudi Arabia in mind.

These movies aren't products of YOUR country - they're paid for by global enterprises, produced by people all around the world, for a global market. Nobody really cares about where the characters originated - American domestic distribution is only one piece of the pie.

We all understand the capitalistic nature of the film industry. We're discussing the merits of the product being ushered out based on it's origins.

The whole feeling that you have, that Hollywood movies are about documenting American culture - that Hollywood movies elevate the importance of your heroic ideals - that's just another sales pitch you happen to buy into. These characters ARE entirely disposable to the corporations who make them. If superheroes stop selling they're going to jump to whatever else will fit the demographics they're looking for quicker than you can say 'Krypton'.

I never said Hollywood is documenting 'American culture'. If anything, it's ignoring the roots of these heroes. Whether they are born within the borders of this country or not is not the nature of my point. Since when did the Panther have anything to do with America? Johnny Storm might have Irish blood in him for all I know. What I do know is it's seldom a good idea to turn a concept on it's ear after it's lasted nearly five decades as something entirely different to so many generations of people. That is a pop culture tradition.

I think it's fine if people enjoy these movies - I enjoy some of them myself - but they're roller-coaster rides. It's probably sad that movies like the ones you're talking about aren't getting made, but the real issues are miles away from what color The Human Torch's skin is.

I don't deem them as dispensable entertainment. That kind of attitude is why they are being compromised to the extent they are. If they're no more than a 'cheap ride', then they cease to have any relevance or purpose outside of surface entertainment.

[hedrap]

I'm side stepping your political commentary for my own sanity and out of respect for the fact that we are repeatedly asked to try to keep things non-political on these forums...

To me you're entirely missing the point. The whole issue is that nobody making these movies cares about anything about what you're talking about. These movies have nothing to do with "cultural traditions", these movies are just products based on brands with high Q scores.

These movies aren't products of YOUR country - they're paid for by global enterprises, produced by people all around the world, for a global market. Nobody really cares about where the characters originated - American domestic distribution is only one piece of the pie.

Without the American immigration experience, none of these characters exist. 90% of the original creators were Eastern Euro Jews whose families fled to the States after WWI or during the rise of ol' Adolf. So not just does the physical existence - parents meeting to have children - not occur, but neither does the cultural experiences.

This is beyond Superman. It goes to all the great classical horror from Universal, the sci-fi pulp writers. Rod Serling. These are international brands, today, but if it wasn't for a few generations of Americans producing and buying them, they wouldn't be. It's historical revisionism otherwise.

[MIB41]

Without the American immigration experience, none of these characters exist. 90% of the original creators were Eastern Euro Jews whose families fled to the States after WWI or during the rise of ol' Adolf. So not just does the physical existence - parents meeting to have children - not occur, but neither does the cultural experiences.

This is beyond Superman. It goes to all the great classical horror from Universal, the sci-fi pulp writers. Rod Serling. These are international brands, today, but if it wasn't for a few generations of Americans producing and buying them, they wouldn't be. It's historical revisionism otherwise.

Well said. Thank you!!

[Hector]

I'm side stepping your political commentary for my own sanity and out of respect for the fact that we are repeatedly asked to try to keep things non-political on these forums...

To me you're entirely missing the point. The whole issue is that nobody making these movies cares about anything about what you're talking about. These movies have nothing to do with "cultural traditions", these movies are just products based on brands with high Q scores.

These movies aren't products of YOUR country - they're paid for by global enterprises, produced by people all around the world, for a global market. Nobody really cares about where the characters originated - American domestic distribution is only one piece of the pie.

The whole feeling that you have, that Hollywood movies are about documenting American culture - that Hollywood movies elevate the importance of your heroic ideals - that's just another sales pitch you happen to buy into. These characters ARE entirely disposable to the corporations who make them. If superheroes stop selling they're going to jump to whatever else will fit the demographics they're looking for quicker than you can say 'Krypton'.

I think it's fine if people enjoy these movies - I enjoy some of them myself - but they're roller-coaster rides. It's probably sad that movies like the ones you're talking about aren't getting made, but the real issues are miles away from what color The Human Torch's skin is.

Those horrible liberals, they are going to ruin the entire known universe, oh the horror, the horror, lol.

The most hilarious thing about the whole thing is that Stan Lee is non-religious Jewish agnostic and a liberal...lol.

Oh the horror, the horror, lol.

[Brazoo]

Those horrible liberals, they are going to ruin the entire known universe, oh the horror, the horror, lol.

The most hilarious thing about the whole thing is that Stan Lee is non-religious Jewish agnostic and a liberal...lol.

Oh the horror, the horror, lol.

I always thought Lee was not really that political, Kirby and Ditko however...

And yeah, I think you've pointed out a significant part of the irony here.

[Brazoo]

Pop culture is very much a part of tradition in this country and others. And all countries have their heroes. Captain America was not born with Saudi Arabia in mind.

We all understand the capitalistic nature of the film industry. We're discussing the merits of the product being ushered out based on it's origins.

I never said Hollywood is documenting 'American culture'. If anything, it's ignoring the roots of these heroes. Whether they are born within the borders of this country or not is not the nature of my point. Since when did the Panther have anything to do with America? Johnny Storm might have Irish blood in him for all I know. What I do know is it's seldom a good idea to turn a concept on it's ear after it's lasted nearly five decades as something entirely different to so many generations of people. That is a pop culture tradition.

It seems like you're shifting gears a bit, but maybe I'm wrong. I was referring to what you said here: "Most countries take pride in their cultural traditions which are not subject to interpretation like we do here."

I don't deem them as dispensable entertainment. That kind of attitude is why they are being compromised to the extent they are. If they're no more than a 'cheap ride', then they cease to have any relevance or purpose outside of surface entertainment.

You keep missing my point. The way YOU take these things is different than the way these things are made. Nobody makes these movies for YOU or your ideals. That you happen to like them and go to these movies, and for some reason think they're important - that's all aside from the point. If the original source means they'll make more money - they'll stick closer to that. If the committees who okay these decisions think White Panther will sell better than Black Panther - guess which one will get made? It's not about politics - you're giving these corporations way too much credit. It's only about money, it's meant to be a cheap ride. That you see something more in it - that's cool.

My attitude isn't getting these movies made - by the way. People buying the tickets are getting these movies made. (I think the last one of these superhero movies I saw in the theatre was Iron Man.)

I think we're actually arguing the same thing, in some ways - but you're putting your own political spin on what you think the problem is.

[ctc]

>I have plenty of characters that I already like. I just want to see those characters done right. That's it. It's not difficult.

But THAT'S the problem! A lot of folks have that attitude, and it chokes out anything new, so we get the old stuff, over and over.... cannibalized so many times that it gets increasingly difficult to freshen it up. So they HAVE to get weird. Remember when Jack Black was gonna be in Green Lantern?

>somebody should just hand the director a copy of Amazing Spider-Man #121 for example, and say, here's your script, complete with dialog and costume designs already done. Shoot it

No.... that's a horrible idea! I've already READ Spiderman 121! I know what happens. I don't need to see a slightly different version at a slightly different angle. The comic was great! It's sufficient. I'd rather see a whole new story for the movie, with a new bad guy even. Hell; I'd rather see a new HERO 'cos after 40+ years of reading the comic I think I've seen every Spidey permutation possible.

We NEED new ideas. Times change, people change, perspectives change. Did it irk us when in the comics when Brainiac traded his hotpants in for a roboskull? Or when Batman became a ninja? Or Green Arrow became a ninja? Or Wolverine became a ninja? Or Psyloke became a ninja? That didn't happen 'cos ninjas are the ultimate expression of the human condition; it happened 'cos they were trendy. Same with all the theological horror books of the early 70's. Or when every superhero went "Space Cop" in the 50's. Or the post DKR "dark and gritty" wave. Which people complain about NOW; but did it REALLY bother us back then when it happened?

No, because we were young and still open to new ideas. So we schlepped together whatever came down the pike into a cohesive, cognitive whole. The "messin' with my faves" bit isn't new. These aren't characters so much as products; products that get reimagined every so often, for every permutation. (Imagine a Hulk tv show like the Bill Bixby one nowadays. "Where's the Leader? This is stupid! He's not even 9 feet tall!") The only reason it's so irksome NOW is 'cos we're old enough.... and have been around the proverbial block enough that we see it happening. So we complain, and that scares the comic companies so they've been trapped in the late 80's for the last 20 years. The movie companies don't care 'cos the comic fans are too small a group. 'Course even back in the day they didn't care. (See that Hulk thing I mentioned....)

>These movies aren't products of YOUR country - they're paid for by global enterprises, produced by people all around the world, for a global market.

Yup; but I think the problem a lot of us oldsters have is that we're used to the comics; which back in the day (pre 80's anyhoo) were a smaller operation, and allowed more direct producer/reader interface, more rapid responses to social trends (that ninja thing came out of nowhere.... LIKE A NINJA!) and an overall sense of intimacy that you CAN'T get from a movie. For the exact reasons you mention.

>it could be argued that such popular licenses have never reached their full potential simply because of all the tinkering going on. Let these characters breath as they were originally intended and we could see considerably better results.

It's entirely possible. It's also possible that they'd go the other way and tank worse. But again, they keep making them. There's a reason.

>The FF represented the diversity of that period

Maybe, but that was 50 years ago. That's the problem with a lot of long-term characters; things change and you've got to re-up them. Somehow. (Otherwise Ben and Reed are in their 90's, considering they met in WW2.) Like I said; the best way to make Marvel NY more on par with Earth NY would be to add some mixed NEW characters. The problem is like you said; people already have their favourite characters that they want to see. The extra bonus problem for the comics is that 80's Marvel (and DC) amped up the cost of production so much with their attempts to appeal to the "collector's market" that their books are too expensive for an impule buy; meaning most folks will think at least twice before trying an unknown.

>The attempt to pan-racialize every group into large blockades is not character exploration.

That's DEFINITELY true, as is how different people get pidgeonholed. And it's not the sort of thing the producers of a big budget film can buck.

>it's seldom a good idea to turn a concept on it's ear after it's lasted nearly five decades as something entirely different

I'd agree, except that's exactly what happens with the superheroes. Always has. Batman used to straight up murder guys. Then he was a smiling space cop. Then the "nanaNANAnanaNANA" tv Batman, and the darker Aparo one, and the REALLY darker Miller one, then the "gawdam" Batman....

Don C.