Batman: The Brave and the Bold JUMPS THE SHARK!

[BlackKnight]

I'm not a Kyle fan, but I am a Kyle advocate.

This conversation needs no futher Address by my part then, It Obviously went Political.

[samurainoir]

Seriously, did anyone ever think they'd live to see this day?


I'd love to see a boxset with Guy, Sinestro, G'Nort and Bat-Lantern in the B&B style.

[samurainoir]

Was anyone here a member of HEAT?
Join HEAT Application

[madmarva]

Kyle was THE Green Lantern, now he is A Green Lantern.

I'm all for the Corps being back, but the star of the book "Green Lantern" should be Kyle. He earned it, and he deserves it. He should not have to take a backseat to tainted goods IMO.

I'm not a Kyle fan, but I am a Kyle advocate.

Well, Kyle didn't earn the ring. He stumbled across a Guardian in an alley and received the ring just because he happened to be there. That was the central thesis of first 50 or so issues starring Kyle, him trying to become worthy of the responsibility given to him.

Jordan earned the ring by being honest and brave and being selected by the ring in the first GL story in Showcase No. 22. Hal was worthy when he got the ring.

Kyle worked his way into being worthy of the ring over time. He was the anti-Hal, an everyman, a Peter Parker with a a power ring instead of web shooters. As originally conceived, Hal was a hero prior to getting the ring. Kyle was just Joe Blow and to his credit eventually rose to the occasion.

That's how it was plotted by the writer's and the editor's of the comics.

Now, the reason why DC brought Jordan back had to do with sales. Green Lantern sold well with Kyle as GL early on but the book's sales had declined and to the point where some sort of change was needed to spark sales.

Evidently, the best idea anyone had was to bring Hal back, and it worked. Since GL Rebirth, the Green Lantern book has been more popular percentage-wise than ever. That validates DC's decision to make Jordan the headliner in the book.

A GL movie is being filmed, now, not solely but partly because of the rise in popularity of the GL since Hal was brought back.

Will Jordan's popularity recede at some point, as it had when DC replaced him with Kyle? Probably. Will DC then bring back Kyle as the lead? Maybe.

But coming off Blackest Night, it's hard argue logically against Hal being a poor choice.

As for the whole mass murder thing, you're grasping at straws in a vain attempt to support your argument. These are fictional characters. Nobody's been killed.

Besides, heroes have killed in literature, myth, films and stories since stories began to be told.

As for the Flash, I've never been a huge fan of the character, Wally or Barry. I like Flash in the Justice League, but they are only letting sidekicks in it right now. I really enjoyed the first issue of Flash Rebirth, but it's been downhill from there.

I'm hoping Johns will pick things up soon and do something new with the series. I'm pretty tired of the Rouges.

I won't argue with Wally being the better character. He was developed by Wolfman, Waid and Johns, who are all great with character, but the wife and kids weighed him down his most recent series.

And I really don't get Barry being such a hard-case, especially the fight with GA.

But the reasoning to bring back Barry from a marketing and merchandising standpoint is sound. Wally's origin is tied to Barry's. Barry's origin stands alone, a lot easier to tell in a movie or a TV series.

But I do like a more fun-loving Flash than the one we've gotten in the first couple of issued of the new series.

[The Toyroom]

^ Many great points there, Terry!

[The Toyroom]

I'm hoping Johns will pick things up soon and do something new with the series. I'm pretty tired of the Rouges.

I'd really like to see the Rogues handled individually for a while....Back in Barry's day, they were only occassionally shown together. It was implied that they hung out with each other but it was rarely shown.

Once Barry went away and it was decided that the Rogues were the laughingstock of the DCU as far as villains go, they kept putting them together as if they were a tight knit group....

When truth be told I think they've always tolerated each other and had the same goal in mind (i.e. the elimination of The Flash) but at heart they were rivlas amongst themselves...Captain Cold hated Heatwave, Captain Cold and Mirror Master were often partners who didn't get along, Captain Cold and The Top were at odds because the Top was going out with Cold's sister, Grodd didn't play well with others, and Abra Kadabra and Reverse-Flash were outcasts amongst the Rogues.

They should really split them up again if they want to make each villain formidable on his OWN....instead of as part of a group.

(And a personal favor please.....Get ridf of the NEW Trickster....I can't stand the kid...)

[samurainoir]

I'm always amazed that the Hal vs Kyle mentality still exists now that fans of both characters have books featuring their favourite GL... and that includes fans of Guy and John Stewart as well. I don't think anyone is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to finding some venue that features their favourite GL's. Even G'nort's well serviced in the Brave and Bold cartoon (even though he's absent from the comics)!

Fans of Hal have got a movie to root for as well as the main GL title, Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Kyle has great exposure in Green Lantern Corps and has been featured even more in the DCU since Hal's return... starring not only in the extended Ion series with Ron Marz, but he was also one of the headliners for Countdown and various spinoff titles alongside Jason Todd and Donna Troy.

I'm very much intrigued by the Emerald Warrior spinoff teaming Guy and Kilowog. I always liked their interactions, from the antagonism of the eighties GL corps (where Kilowog defected to the USSR and Guy invaded) to their more friendly relationship in JLI.

[samurainoir]

When truth be told I think they've always tolerated each other and had the same goal in mind (i.e. the elimination of The Flash) but at heart they were rivlas amongst themselves...Captain Cold hated Heatwave, Captain Cold and Mirror Master were often partners who didn't get along, Captain Cold and The Top were at odds because the Top was going out with Cold's sister, Grodd didn't play well with others, and Abra Kadabra and Reverse-Flash were outcasts amongst the Rogues.

I really did enjoy the Rogue War arc a few years ago.

[madmarva]

I like Kyle. He's a good character. While I prefer Jordan and am glad he's back, I'm glad DC didn't kill him off when it brought Jordan back. it's nice to have both of them around.

Anthony, I agree it would be good if they split the Rouges up and make them worthy adversaries for the Flash on their own, once again. Let Barry bring their worst out again. It would be cool to see Wally's reaction to more dangerous rouges.

[B-Lister]

Well, Kyle didn't earn the ring. He stumbled across a Guardian in an alley and received the ring just because he happened to be there. That was the central thesis of first 50 or so issues starring Kyle, him trying to become worthy of the responsibility given to him.

Kyle earned the ring by proving himself worthy.

Jordan earned the ring by being honest and brave and being selected by the ring in the first GL story in Showcase No. 22. Hal was worthy when he got the ring.

No. Hal earned the ring because he was closer than Guy Gardner.

Kyle worked his way into being worthy of the ring over time. He was the anti-Hal, an everyman, a Peter Parker with a a power ring instead of web shooters. As originally conceived, Hal was a hero prior to getting the ring. Kyle was just Joe Blow and to his credit eventually rose to the occasion.

Hal was an ******* prior to getting the ring. The only difference between Hal and Guy is that Guy freely admits to being one, and Hal tries to hide it.

That's how it was plotted by the writer's and the editor's of the comics.

And subsequent writers and editors had different ideas. It's all cyclical.

Now, the reason why DC brought Jordan back had to do with sales. Green Lantern sold well with Kyle as GL early on but the book's sales had declined and to the point where some sort of change was needed to spark sales.

And the reason why DC axed Hal and Brought in Kyle was the same damn reason, and you know it.

Evidently, the best idea anyone had was to bring Hal back, and it worked. Since GL Rebirth, the Green Lantern book has been more popular percentage-wise than ever. That validates DC's decision to make Jordan the headliner in the book.

Not BECAUSE of Hal, though, but rather IN SPITE of him. When was the last time you read a good story ABOUT Hal Jordan, rather than a good story STARRING Hal Jordan?, because lemme tell ya, the last one I read was Emerald Twilight. Rebirth was about Hal, but I wouldn't say it was a good story. Rather a slapdash solution to a problem too many people were eager to walk away from, instead of exploring the wealth of opportunity it afforded.

A GL movie is being filmed, now, not solely but partly because of the rise in popularity of the GL since Hal was brought back.

There was never anything wrong with the property.

Will Jordan's popularity recede at some point, as it had when DC replaced him with Kyle? Probably. Will DC then bring back Kyle as the lead? Maybe.

Will Jordan's popularity recede?, If history has anything to do with it, yes. Since Kyle wasn't the first time Hal was replaced, and the book has a long history of not being able to hold up sales. Having to bring in guest stars and replacements multiple times over the years.

But coming off Blackest Night, it's hard argue logically against Hal being a poor choice.

I disagree.

As for the whole mass murder thing, you're grasping at straws in a vain attempt to support your argument. These are fictional characters. Nobody's been killed.

No. Fictional or not, the suspension of disbelief must be maintained, and if you're gonna have good and evil, right and wrong, then consequences for one's actions MUST occur.

Besides, heroes have killed in literature, myth, films and stories since stories began to be told.

And it was always out of necessity, not out of personal greed. Hal killed for selfish reasons, and thus isn't a hero, he is a killer.

Of course, that's all merely my opinion.

[B-Lister]

I'm always amazed that the Hal vs Kyle mentality still exists now that fans of both characters have books featuring their favourite GL... and that includes fans of Guy and John Stewart as well. I don't think anyone is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to finding some venue that features their favourite GL's. Even G'nort's well serviced in the Brave and Bold cartoon (even though he's absent from the comics)!

It exists because Kyle was dealt an unfair hand, and the Hal fans act like there's nothing wrong with that. They're happy because their guy is "The" Green Lantern, when Kyle fans (and supporters) believe that he is undeserving.

Fans of Hal have got a movie to root for as well as the main GL title, Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Kyle has great exposure in Green Lantern Corps and has been featured even more in the DCU since Hal's return... starring not only in the extended Ion series with Ron Marz, but he was also one of the headliners for Countdown and various spinoff titles alongside Jason Todd and Donna Troy.

Kyle has to share his book with an ensemble. How is that even a fair comparison?

I'm very much intrigued by the Emerald Warrior spinoff teaming Guy and Kilowog. I always liked their interactions, from the antagonism of the eighties GL corps (where Kilowog defected to the USSR and Guy invaded) to their more friendly relationship in JLI.

honesty, sometimes I think Hal fans can't see the forest for the trees.

if you love him, you love him, and I'm happy for you, but I think Kyle got the shaft, and I feel it's my duty to tell the world. I am not trying to convince anybody but DC themselves. Kyle got screwed, and he got screwed by a character of questionable morality. To me it would be like revealing the Joker as the next Batman.

[The Toyroom]

I don't see how Kyle got screwed....he's not dead.

[The Toyroom]

When Kyle debuted I was reading "Green Lantern" along with everybody else....but as time went by I lost interest, not so much because of Kyle but because of the writers and direction of the book.

I became interested again in the form of Geoff Johns and what he did with "Rebirth"...he took a sticky situation regarding Hal's "morality" as you put it and was able to restore Hal's luster and status as a GL without totally retconning the Emerald Twilight jazz as if it never happened.

If anything, he made a more compelliing story about Hal Jordan, the Greatest GL of All, and how even he was corrupted by the Parallax entity. By introducing that story element, sure it got Hal "off the hook"...that's a given...but it also redefined the meaning of "fear" in the GL universe and gave the building blocks for what would become Blackest Night.

As a result, I dare say that Green Lantern as a title and a franchise has been enjoying its greatest success ever. And that should be seen as a win/win for ALL Green Lantern fans, regardless of which GL they cheer for.

And let's face it...this is comic books folks....Everything gets swept under the rug once in a while....over the years many of our comic heroes have done things that we would question today, given their popularity now.

I've already mentioned Punisher and Wolverine (which I see went ignored ...apparently it's all about Hal) . But Batman once carried and used guns.....Superman threw people off rooftops...Wonder Woman as a comic was often a metaphor for bondage. Heck, even now we have The Hulk all over children's products, yet he's currently being portrayed in various storylines as somewhat of a deadbeat dad who is knocking up every chick he crosses paths with While that's not exactly the same thing as a "mass murderer" I question the morality there as well

[madmarva]

Mr. Blisterfits

As for Guy Gardner, he was a retcon that came a decade after after Julie Schwartz, John Broome and Gil Kane re-imagined the Green Lantern character with a sci-fi bent rather than a mystical one.

Gardner made one appearance and was not seen again for a decade. He appeared in a couple of issues in the late 70s or early 1980s and vanished again for 5 or 6 more years before Englehart brought him back right before Crisis.

He was put in the Justice League book to be a punchline as well as fill the Hawkeye, Green Arrow role of malcontent that all comics writes felt was needed in a team to make it work.

In the GL series, he was used at times as an effective counterpoint to Jordan to mainly show how much better Jordan was at the job of being a Green Lantern.

He was a tacked-on, one-note character, who has been developed into a decent but limited supporting character over the years. It will be interesting to see what Tomasi does with him in August when the third GL book comes out.

I read very little of the Warrior book, where I'm sure he was more fleshed out as a character. If he's starring in a book he can't be written as such a one-note joke of a jerk as he was in JLI or in the GL books.

Since Rebirth, Gardner's has been worked into a better character and I'm looking forward to the series starring him, Kilowog and Arisia.

But the original concept for GL was that Hal was the the most worthy person on Earth for the job, not one of the most worthy. Changing that was a misstep, in my opinion, that watered down the concept. The story in Action Comics in the 1980s further diluted the idea.

Again, Kyle was created to be the anti-Hal, and I don't use anti in a negative way. He was created to be a character that grows into the role by necessity not a character who was already qualified for the role, as Hal was.

A lot of our opinions are similar. I freely admit, Jordan's book wasn't selling when DC wanted to go in another direction.I didn't point it out because I felt it was obvious. When books are selling well —like GL is today with Hal in the leading role — companies don't change directions. Sometimes they even make movies about the character because he is so popular.

I like what DC did with Kyle, while I loathed what DC did with Hal to bring it about. My opinion, DC should have just retired Hal, kept the GL Corps in place — the GL Corps has always been the best idea in the GL mythos — and made Kyle a more worthy successor to the ring.

DC still could have gone with the rookie angle, where Kyle needed to learn the ropes without having him be a guy who got the ring just because he happened to be in the same ally as a Guardian.

But turning Hal into a Shakespeare-type tragic villain — a little bit Lear, Hamlet, Richard III —seemed like good theater to DC at the time. And if you want to disregard the essence of Hal Jordan's character — honest, brave, great will and heroic — then I guess it reads pretty well. But in an attempt to Marvelize Jordan and then turn him into a major villain, from Emerald Dawn until Rebirth, DC diluted and ultimately destroyed Jordan as a character. I can see why DC fans who first encountered the character in the 1990s don't particularly care for him. They shouldn't DC spent the better part of a decade trashing him.

There were consequences for Jordan's actions. When he died he became the Spectre, which read to me like going to Hell. Besides, Paralax used Hal to perform those murders. He was possessed. That's how the story goes. You don't have to like Rebirth, just like I don't have to like Emerald Twilight, but until DC throws it out of continuity — which they could do at any time — Hal has paid his price for the murders, been redeemed. He's not murdering people in the book now. He's a hero.

The great thing about the GL franchise now is that Hal is heading up one book, Kyle another and Guy a third come August. There is a lot of variety in the GL corps. And that's good thing.

As for Rebirth not being a good story, I disagree. To a longtime GL fan like me, it played up the best aspects of the Corps and Hal Jordan, and it did it without harming Kyle, John or Guy as characters.

Again,Emerald Twilight was so out of character for Jordan. Jordan was always billed as having great willpower and for him to crack like he did, did not add up. Hal had never been a murderer. For him to kill all those characters did not add up. Out of character totally. To me, the Paralax possession angle that Johns created for Rebirth finally made sense.

The weakness to the color yellow in the GL mythology never made sense until Johns made Paralax's imprisonment in the battery the reason for it. It also made the Ion stuff that Winnick came up with more grounded in GL lore.

Rebirth was an excellent bit of work that fed off of as well as nourished the GL mythos. All of it from Showcase 22 all the way through Kyle's run.

I think the Sinestro Corps storyline was excellent. The GL/GA team-up featuring Mongul very early in Johns' run was good, too, as was the Manhunter story. All the lead up to Blackest Night was excellent and while the Zombie/returning from the dead aspect of Blackest Night wore on me greatly by the time it was finished, Johns' building up of the other Lanterns around an emotional spectrum stands out to me greatly. He's building a fantastically rich Sci-Fi background for the Green Lantern mythos that is tapping into science, philosophy, theology that is really interesting.

Other good Hal stories in recent memory are New Frontier and the Nail, Mark Waid's Brave and Bold team-up with Flash wasn't bad, nor was JLA Year One, which prominently featured Hal. Darwyn Cooke did a nice story featuring Hal and Kyle. Heck, the team-up between Kyle and Hal that Marz did with Hal from the past (Emerald Knights maybe) was pretty good.

There have been a lot of good stories with Hal since Emerald Twilight in my opinion.

As for suspension of disbelief, it went out the window when DC portrayed Hal as a character that would murder. It was so opposite of everything ever done with the character. Rebirth supplied a reason.

Plus if you can suspend belief long enough to enjoy people running around in long underwear doing impossible things, then accepting demonic-like possession or a symbiotic-type relationship between Paralax and Jordan is not that big a leap.

[samurainoir]

I don't see how Kyle got screwed....he's not dead.

Exactly! or Evil and possessed by Parallax (well maybe that one time).

Kyle fans had a 12 issue Ion miniseries almost immediately following Rebirth. If that had sold through the roof, don't you think he be headlining an Ion book still? As it is, I don't think co-starring in a book is a bad thing, particularly when Guy is moving over to Emerald Warriors... which gives Kyle more screen-time in GLC.

It's Wally fans that should be understandable upset right now... he's not really appearing anywhere other than as a supporting player in Flash right now. Hopefully they will find a team book or niche as a back-up once things settle down with Barry's status quo.