Have you actually read "Seduction of the innocent"?

[samurainoir]

Good points Don, but what I was really trying to get at is the fact that perhaps what harms the "grown up comics industry" much more than any kind of Wertham or ratings movement is that when "regular folks" turn to people who are more educated about comics, such as yourself, should you be so quick to tell them that there are no grown up comics worthy of checking out in the last fifteen years?

Particularly when you are in a very unique position to point them to material that is not Blackest Night and Dark Knight Returns?

I know that I have very few friends and family that are as "into comics" as I am, and I've really had to learn that it's not necessarily the stuff that is to my own personal taste that I will recommend to someone (although it helps to have a diverse reading list). My Dad was shocked at the age of sixty to find himself reading comics after I bought him the Lone Wolf and Cub books in the hospital after his heart attacks... because I knew he was crazy about samurai movies as a kid. My spouse always just kind of stood around the dusty old comic shops that I liked to wander into with that "ick" look on her face until I clued in that she likes Lord of the Rings and Disney films so I handed her Bone and voila... she's now browsing (around the clean and well organised comic shops) and discovery and in turn introducing me to stuff like Shaun Tan's The Arrival. Got Horror Movie friends? WALKING DEAD!

If we want an mature medium with a diversity of material, then we need to be the advocates for those around us. Wertham and the Christian Right (who are trying to ban BONE!) are just paper tigers compared to the insular comics community that seems to suffer from such low self esteem about itself and needs to embrace the wonderfully mainstream strides it's taken into the market in the past decade. Now more than ever before there is some kind of graphic novel out there for anyone... I mean COOKING MANGA is now available at Indigo/Chapters! I think I've finally found something for my mom to read!

[samurainoir]

They never quite make it to general, lasting acceptance. (If they did, Pekar would be a hero.)

BUT PEKAR IS A HERO!!! Think about it for just one second. DECADES as a file clerk slaving away and not making much in the way of dimes on his indy comic American Splendor other than his 15 minutes of fame on Letterman. In 2003 the American Splendor movie comes out with tremendous accolades and critical attention just as he retires. Since then he's been on the best seller's lists, his collections have gone back into print, and he's become a permanent fixture in the Graphic Novel section of every single mainstream bookseller in North America. Mainstream Book publishers are falling over themselves to publish any of his latest work, and putting their marketing muscle behind it. And American Splendor now has just had it's most successful run with DC Vertigo as two well distributed miniseries that have in turn been collected and are on the bookstore shelves readily available to a mass audience right this moment.

He gets to write about whatever he feels like... and covers such diverse ground as his beloved jazz, global political situations like Macedonia, adaptations of prose into graphic novel form, biography's of other people, as well as the minutia of his own daily existence. All of it is available and in print for well over a half decade now, and looks to likely remain that way for some time.

And by all accounts he's making a decent living on all these books, in his so called golden years.

How is he NOT a hero?

[ctc]

>perhaps what harms the "grown up comics industry" much more than any kind of Wertham or ratings movement is that when "regular folks" turn to people who are more educated about comics, such as yourself, should you be so quick to tell them that there are no grown up comics worthy of checking out in the last fifteen years?

I’m not saying there aren’t any grownup books from recent times, and I certainly wouldn’t tell a non-comic person there weren’t. I’m lukewarm on a lot of it; but I recognize that it’s me; some of it I’ve seen before; and some of it is the sort of thing I don’t think is necessarily well-served as a comic. But that’s a personal thing. I’ve recommended stuff I don’t like to others as well ‘cos I thought it’d appeal to them. And I definitely agree that there’s a LOT more variety out there than there has been in a LONG time.... but I suspect this isn’t a permanent situation. Like I mentioned; things move in cycles. The trick is not only producing stuff for different audiences; but getting it to them. As a medium, comics tend to run hot; whatever the current trend is becomes the VERY dominant genre.

>compared to the insular comics community that seems to suffer from such low self esteem about itself and needs to embrace the wonderfully mainstream strides it's taken into the market in the past decade

That’s a very poetic way of putting it. I think the problem here is the fans. Dunno if you were here for the “Judas Priest vs Iron Maiden” discussion a year or two back; but yeah, people need a “winner.” At any given time there can only be one worthwhile example of any genre/style/media, and everything else is poo. Comics have always suffered from this. The superhero fans hate the manga stuff, the manga fans hate the superheroes, and NOBODY considers Archie a “real” comic....

My personal belief is that folks should always try something different. The more different the better. It’s healthier for the medium. Back when I was a kid *geezerism alert* we had Archie, Harvey, Gold Key.... as well as Marvel and DC, Warp, Heavy Metal.... variety! And it was all readily available. (I was able to get all that, except the Warp stuff, at the corner store!) Come the late 80's and it was pretty much all Marvel and DC, and it was mostly only available at designated comic shops. Unhealthy for the industry in general ‘cos by the 90's you lost the kid market. Nobody was bringing in NEW fans. (Until the Shonen Jump stuff.)

....and Wertham-esque crusades are almost always GOOD for a medium. Juts during my life there was the D&D thing, Heavy Metal and the PMRC, Mortal Kombat, Gangsta rap....

>How is he NOT a hero?

What gets me about Pekar is how little he’s mentioned when folks talk about the greats of the industry. He SHOULD get as much notoriety as Moore, Lee, et al; considering how long and prolific his career. But he seems to exist just under the radar. Maybe that’s for the best though.

Don C.

[Brazoo]

Samurainoir - I think you've got some really great picks in there. Chris Ware and Charles Burns are favorite artists of mine for sure. A lot of those I haven't read yet, I'll check some of them out based on your recommendations. I keep hearing great things about "Asterios Polyp" and "Epileptic" for example. There is some stuff on your list that I probably would never even glance at normally, especially some of the genre stuff, to be honest. Also, as talented as he is I can't get into the extreme romantic sulkiness of Adrian Tomine.

By the way, is that Futuristic Tales book by Paul Pope? that cover sure looks like one of his drawings. I like his art a lot.

Personally I like Harvey Pekar, I think he's very talented, but I also think he was extremely lucky to be friends with Robert Crumb - and if I had to pick a hero in that story it would be him.

If you're looking for more great autobiographical comics I highly recommend Eddie Campell's "Alec" if you don't already know it. It's not new, but it has just been collected in a single volume just this year.


Don - I totally agree with most of what you're saying about the distinction between real adult material and a lot of the stuff that gets marketed as being "adult". You've summed it up very well. I also believe that the levels of genuine adult sophistication comes and goes in cycles in all forms of pop culture. Right now I think we're still in a cycle where most pop culture is basically for kids. Using your example, I enjoyed "The Dark Knight" a lot, but I tend to disagree with people who consider that to be a sophisticated adult film. It's one of the reasons I think Wes Anderson's movies are so interesting - his grown-up children characters speak volumes about currant cycle of pop culture to me. I'd argue that "Fantastic Mr. Fox" was my favorite real adult movie of last year - - - but that's a whole other topic. Last year we had 10 Oscar nominations for best film and I really only consider about 3 of them to be grownup movies. Most pop music these days seems excessively kiddie as well - so I don't think it's exclusively a comic book problem looking at the past 10 or so years.

I'm not even the world's biggest "Watchmen" fan, but I think you're short changing it a little by tossing it into the non-grownup category. Don't you think that the book works on two different levels? It's also very experimental deconstructive essay about the hero myth and the super hero genre - almost a perfect antithesis of Joseph Cambell's theories in many ways.

Also, I know you said you were generalizing, but I did wonder what you think of Will Eisner's later work. Which tends to be fairly broad in most ways, especially thematically, but also distinctively adult - at least for me.

[ctc]

>It's also very experimental deconstructive essay about the hero myth and the super hero genre

Well.... if you’ve been immersed in superheroes for a while maybe; but if not, it’s kinda simplistic. It’s the sort of stuff a non-super fan thinks of when they see a superhero comic. “Superheroes are all neurotic glory seekers with all sorts of interpersonal hangups? Duh.” Characters have more complicated motivation than “must... fight... EVIL...!” but they’re all still one note wonders.

>Don't you think that the book works on two different levels?

Watchmen? No. That was why I liked Marvels so much.... it paralleled the development of the comic FAN as well as the Marvel universe. In the beginning it’s all about the slam, bang action.... a tidal wave wipes out New York! Superheroes storm a Nazi outpost! The public wants more, more action, more thrills.... By the 60's it’s different. It’s about life, problems.... marriages, bills to pay.... kinda like the aging fan. By the 80's things were different again. Supers were dark, feared. The protagonist was working on his book, but even HE wasn’t sure about the heroes. Kinda like the older fan wondering if his friends will think he’s a geek for reading comics.

And in the end he accepts things as they are.... wistfully looking back at the supers and pining for the good ol’ NORMAL days. Which reminds me of the older folks pining for the old, good natured, kid friendly supers.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

Coincidentally, I just noticed CBR has coverage of not only Harvey Pekar, but Fun Home creator Alison Bechdale at UCLA.
UCLA Live: Harvey Pekar & Alison Bechdel - Comic Book Resources

Brazoo and Don, I hope both of you will be at The Toronto Comics Arts Festival this year! It is one of the most positive events I've ever attended when it comes to not only the grown up comics scene representing US and Canada (not to mention local talent), but they have some really great stuff for kids as well. This is also the rare occassion that it's been run two years in a row instead of every other year. A fantastic opportunity to discover stuff that you wouldn't normally have a chance at seeing in many regular comic shops (outside of The Beguiling).
TCAF | The Toronto Comics Art Festival
Best of al... IT'S FREE!

[samurainoir]

Samurainoir - I think you've got some really great picks in there. Chris Ware and Charles Burns are favorite artists of mine for sure. A lot of those I haven't read yet, I'll check some of them out based on your recommendations. I keep hearing great things about "Asterios Polyp" and "Epileptic" for example. There is some stuff on your list that I probably would never even glance at normally, especially some of the genre stuff, to be honest. Also, as talented as he is I can't get into the extreme romantic sulkiness of Adrian Tomine.

Adrian Tomine is certainly the patron saint of "Emo" comics. It makes perfect sense that he has done illustrations for Weezer. I can't say I actually find "enjoyment" from reading Tomine and Ware's stuff, but there is just such a beauty in their unflinching devotion to Melancholoy. It's a place on the emotional spectrum that others tend to shy away from or simply give lip service to, which makes sense given the amount of escapism that typifies so many comics in the comic store mainstream. I don't think their is a colour lantern in Blackest Night that would choose any of Tomine or Ware's protagonists (maybe Rusty Brown would be an Orange Lantern)!

Regarding the Crumb and Pekar situation, I would argue that it's a situation of making your own luck with Pekar. He certainly knew Crumb, but by all accounts basically steamrolled Crumb into illustrating so many of his early comics. Beyond that, I think it's just forty years worth of tenacity that finally got a huge break from the feature film.

Paul Pope did a cover illustration for local blogger/scifi author Corey Doctorow.
Cory Doctorow About Cory Doctorow

[samurainoir]

That’s a very poetic way of putting it. I think the problem here is the fans. Dunno if you were here for the “Judas Priest vs Iron Maiden” discussion a year or two back; but yeah, people need a “winner.” At any given time there can only be one worthwhile example of any genre/style/media, and everything else is poo. Comics have always suffered from this. The superhero fans hate the manga stuff, the manga fans hate the superheroes, and NOBODY considers Archie a “real” comic....
s
My personal belief is that folks should always try something different. The more different the better. It’s healthier for the medium. Back when I was a kid *geezerism alert* we had Archie, Harvey, Gold Key.... as well as Marvel and DC, Warp, Heavy Metal.... variety! And it was all readily available. (I was able to get all that, except the Warp stuff, at the corner store!) Come the late 80's and it was pretty much all Marvel and DC, and it was mostly only available at designated comic shops. Unhealthy for the industry in general ‘cos by the 90's you lost the kid market. Nobody was bringing in NEW fans. (Until the Shonen Jump stuff.)

As always Don, our vision of a healthy and diverse industry and medium are completely aligned, but our interpretation of the current state of execution seems to be a bit out of synch!

You are dead on the money about fans, but I guess I've kind of mellowed around the nineties glut and the Wednesday comic store culture because there are now so many retailers that are adapting the bookstore model and embracing a bit more diversity. It seems to me that the ones that are not adapting are the ones going out of business.

Plus, I know I continue to harp on this point over and over again, the mainstream bookstore market has taken over the newsstands of our childhoods!

DC, Marvel, Heavy Metal and Archie are still around. Gold Key published cartoon and TV adaptations for the most part, which the "Mini Majors" like Boom, IDW, Dark Horse, Dynamite et al handle in great supply, while also filling for the creator owned indy genre stuff that Warp/First/Pacific/Comico used to publish.

As for Harvey... I think Bone and Scott Pilgrim are great contemporary fill ins for that kind of adventure whimsy that they specialized in. If those skew a bit older, then might I suggest our own Mego Milk's wonderful PATRICK THE WOLF BOY as a good stand in for Casper, Wendy and Hot Stuff?
Amazon.com: Patrick The Wolf Boy Volume 4 (v. 4) (9781932796834): Art Baltazar: Books
Available from Amazon with a few clicks of a button!

And we are both in complete agreement about Manga and the likes of Shonen Jump, although I have to admit that Manga seems to have peaked and I'm hoping that the drop in sales this year is simply an adjustment and not a continued downward trend. Otherwise, there would be a real void given the fact that no one else seems to publish comics available to a mass audience that deal with everything from autobiographical homelessness/vagrancy, Wheelchair basketball, and my personal favourite these days... Oishinbo (TWENTY plus volumes about culinary culture, including recipes!).

[ctc]

>I'm hoping that the drop in sales this year is simply an adjustment and not a continued downward trend.

I'm thinkin' it's an actual downturn; especially since the companies bringing the Japanese stuff over have started paring down the variety of what they bring. On the up side, I'm thinkin' we're only a few yeras off the first crop of new manga fans producing their OWN stuff, so we may be in for a whole new niche to replace it.

Don C.

[Brazoo]

Brazoo and Don, I hope both of you will be at The Toronto Comics Arts Festival this year!

For sure! We should try to meet up and maybe grab some beers after the show and fistfight about Pekar Vs. Crumb and Marvels Vs. Watchmen! I already have plans to go on Saturday, but I might go Sunday too.

Just let me know and I'll PM you guys my cell number!

I also need you guys to school me on some decent Manga. The only one I've ever gotten into was Parasyte. I read the first 3 books and really liked the twisted horror mixed with the ditko/spiderman feel of that one. What's a good story I should pick up that won't require me to buy tons and tons of books?

[ctc]

>I hope both of you will be at The Toronto Comics Arts Festival this year!

AAAAGGGHHH! I'll be in Gagetown finishing my course at that time.

>What's a good story I should pick up that won't require me to buy tons and tons of books?

Fear not the ton of books; for it means more reading.... As for stuff I'd recommend, that's a toughie. I know what I like, but I don't know where your tastes run. What sort of stuff do you like?

Don C.

[Brazoo]

That's too bad - Gagetown, are you in the armed forces? Is there anything in particular I can grab for you? Any autographs/sketches or anything?

Recommending is always tough I guess. The only superhero comics I read these days are collections of classics. I love Jack Kirby, Jack Cole, Will Eisner, Harvey Kurtzman and a bunch of the original Mad artists. I'm a HUGE fan of E.C. Segar's Popeye. One of my favorite graphic novels is "From Hell" - Eddie Campbell's other stuff is great too. I like everything by Joe Matt, Chester Brown, Hernandez Bros., Charles Burns, Chris Ware. I keep meaning to pick up that new Al Columbia book because he's great.

I'm self employed these days, so my budget for books is much tighter then I'd like, which is why starting to pick up a collection of Manga with 30 volumes is a little daunting. Maybe there's a smaller more concise collection of stories you guys could recommend to get me started?

I've got Yoshihiro Tatsumi's "The Push Man and Other Stories" and I liked that, but I didn't run out and grab more of his work after reading it for whatever reason. I do like "Parasyte" for it's strangeness and should probably pick up some more volumes at some point. I think you and Samurai both recommended "Lone Wolf and Cub" which sounds appealing because I'm a huge fan of Akira Kurosawa films.

I love classic Japanese cinema, but I've always remained pretty ignorant about Japanese comics. I think part of the problem is that I can't get past my bias that all the art looks the same to me. Another unfair bias I have to admit to, I'm always slightly concerned that any Manga I pick up is going to turn weird sexually. Some part of my brain can't help but associate Menga with pornographic Sailor Moon weirdness. I'm not even particularly prudish - most sexual content is probably fine - but cartoon pornography just doesn't appeal to me.

[samurainoir]

The Toronto Library System is pretty great for manga these days. You can even go online and reserve books quite easily. The only drawback for the multi-volume epics is that they will NEVER come in proper reading order if you reserve them all at once, so there is a wait time between reserving each one, waiting for it to come in to pick it up and read, and reserving the next one and waiting for it to come in to pick up and read.

There are also websites which are in the "grey" when it comes to scanslations. Manga that is not available here in translated book form, but they are taken down when they do finally get published in English (although there are literally hundreds that never do make it here).

In the vein of Robert Crumb, Chester Brown and Joe Matt autobiography, The Disappearance Diary is a fascinating account of one of Japan's foremost "Lolita" Manga creators descent into alcoholism and homelessness, which is rendered in an oddly whimsical manner. It's certainly an interesting juxtiposition. It's "done in one" volume.

Do you like new wave Japanese Horror films like Ringu or Pulse? The closest I can think of in terms of the surreal atmospheric horror of Charles Burns is a series like GYO. Three volumes. "Night of the Mechanical Zombie Fish"

[samurainoir]

Not really manga, but from your reading list, it sounds like you would dig the work of Korean American cartoonist Derek Kirk Kim.
index

[ctc]

>The only superhero comics I read these days are collections of classics.

I can empathize. Even as a kid I didn’t like superheroes and read stuff like the Warren mags, Heavy Metal, the Harvey books..... (Dunno if there’s a connection there.) I got into comics serious-like during the 80's boom, with Grimjack, Mars, Judge Dredd, Golgo 13....

Didn’t read superheroes until I was in my mid-20's and working at a comic shop. I found for myself, the stuff I enjoyed was:

DC: The mid/late 60's “gogo checks” era. They still had the completely unfettered imagination of the earlier books, with a touch of consistent story.
MARVEL: Late 60's/early 70's. Same insane ideas, but with thoroughly constructed stories.

By the mid/late 80's it seemed like all the imagination had been sucked out in favour of “plot,” “development” and worst of all “pertinence.”

>I can't get past my bias that all the art looks the same to me.

This one always kinda makes me laugh; especially from people who DON’T have the same problem with superhero comics. You can usually tell the era ‘cos everybody’s following one of a handful of “acceptable” styles. After reading a few Japanese books, especially from different genres and eras you’ll be able to tell ‘em apart.

>I'm always slightly concerned that any Manga I pick up is going to turn weird sexually.

...and/or feature disturbing violence. (Nobody EVER mentions the violence....) I grew up on Heavy Metal, so it doesn’t bother me.

As for recommendations; some of my faves are:

-JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. THIS one has a zillion chapters ‘cos it’s actually several different sagas that build on previous ones. Currently VIZ is publishing the fourth series, which is one of the best. It’s a weird take on superheroes, where everybody has psychic powers that manifest as a dude.
-Reiko the Zombie Shop. WAY insane levels of T&A, and lots of disturbing violence; but kinda funny. Almost a parody of comics where kids collect things and make ‘em fight; in this one the kids collect the souls of the damned.
-DeathNote. 12 volumes, and one of the few stories where the characters are supposed to be super-intelligent and actually ACT that way.
YuYu Hakusho. The first few volumes are AWESOME; but it devolves into the tournament thing in several spots, which drag on and on....
-Area 88. The first series I read in Japanese, ‘cos they never finished the official English translation. An action book done by a former Shoujo artist.
-UruseiYatsura. A friend describes it as “the Japanese Archie,” and that’s .... well.... maybe. With aliens. And monsters. And.... er.... you kinda hafta just read it.
-FrankenFran. Maybe not to your tastes ‘cos it’s.... wrong.... on durned near every level.
-BlackJack. Mercenary surgeon. One of Tezuka’s weirdest books.
-Gundam Sousei. A fictionalized account of how the original Gundam TV show came about. It makes me wish we had someone like Tomino here.
-Billy Bat. Another one that’s pretty indescribable. It jumps back and forth throughout history, and is comprised of a number of shorter storylines connected by the “Billy Bat” cartoon character. (“Are you the good one, or the bad one?”)

Don C.