Have you actually read "Seduction of the innocent"?

[Brazoo]

TrueDave - with all due respect, I actually think a few of us argued against some of these points already - It's 100% fine if you disagree, but if you want to converse maybe you should respond to other people's points instead of just posting the same opinions again and again.

I don't think anyone on here argued that all material is equally appropriate for kids and adults. A few of us are just arguing FOR parental responsibility and AGAINST censorship. The code did NOT stop kids from being influenced in negative ways or committing crimes. It DID kill EC Comics and nearly destroyed the comic industry.

The code was a complete sham. If you think it's main purpose was protecting kids as a rating system you should do some more research. It was created by EC's competition because they were too cowardly to stand up for their own rights while Gaines was busy defending free speech. The code was just a political maneuver which was also used by the other publishers to add all kinds of anti-EC comics concessions to weaken EC in the market. Famously one new rule stated that the words "horror" or "terror" or "weird" could not be used on a cover. That doesn't sound like a deliberate attempt to take down EC to you?

On top of everything else the code authority even had a creepy anti-progressive agenda. They objected to an EC story where an astronaut revealed that he was black at the end. So no, I really don't think there was much value in the code.

If you still think the code was anything other than business and PR maneuvering then read the original actual Code sometime - I think you're in for a few surprises.

I just found this great quote from Scott McCloud on the comics code: "the list of requirements a film needs to receive a G rating was doubled, and there were no other acceptable ratings!"

[ctc]

>Those satanic cult cases are another great example of how this kind of overreactive fear can lead to tragedy.

The problem with this sort of thing is that it snowballs, in an ad-hoc kinda way. The D&D thing came first, but was quickly usurped into a “satanists are secretly taking over!!!” idea. Add on a “recovered memory” flap for good measure, play off people’s fear of kids and time’s not being “what they USED to be” and voila! There was an ex-FBI agent who wrote a book about it; about how many hours were wasted looking for evil cults. (I specifically remember him discussing all the alleged sacrifices that were being done, how there wasn’t anywhere’s near enough missing persons cases to account for them all, so the investigation spent millions on trying to find the baby farms where kids were raised for sacrifice.)

>Parents back then thought when a kid was going to get comics he was buying Casper the Ghost and Superman.

Herein lies part of the problem: at the time, comics weren’t just for kids. Almost everyone read comics. So there was a lot of stuff out there not appropriate for kids, but it wasn’t rare or esoteric. Parents shouldn’t have been surprised by something like “Crime SuspenStories.” They weren’t exactly hiding the content. But the inquest put the idea in people’s heads that ALL comics SHOULD be kid safe. THAT was the problem because it was a fundamentally wrong notion. And the other publishers jumped on board ‘cos EC; with their icky-bad comics were by far the top sellers. (Probably because their more mature audience content was attractive to a larger audience. Imagine that, “Vault of Horror” as a proper general audience book!) The Code was self-imposed by the industry, and went a long way towards dethroning EC.

It’s always seemed odd to me that comic books were censored so heavily; but NOT newspaper comic strips. Dick Tracy could dispatch his foes in numerous gruesome ways, but Fates help you if Superman fought a vampire.... (We know who’d win, anyhoo.) It seems to me that the inquest was where the “comics is’ fer kids!” idea got insinuated into N. American thinking. But then again; people have always done what they’re told. If Geraldo says it’s bad for you, it MUST be.

>why again is a Child Psychologist who works in teh inner city a crackpot because he made parents aware of what was out there?

‘Cos he used spurious logic to support his idea. Wertham gathered up a bunch of delinquents and asked if they read comics. Since EVERYONE did back then, they of course said yes. It’d be like rounding up a bunch of axe murderers and asking if they wear shoes; and then using the inevitable answer to pass my thesis that shoes make people into axe murderers.

And it seems odd that he’d NEED to inform parents of something that was really, REALLY obvious. He flavourized it for them; gave an excuse to the concerned citizens. “Crime SuspenStories?!? Violent drivel! Shocking Tales?!?! Lurid trash! Why can’t you kids like GOOD comics, like Dick Tracy and L’il Abner?”

Don C.

[thunderbolt]

How could you tell every book , website , video game , movie, etc was appropriate if things like the Comics Seal wasnt created?

Hey its great stuff warped minds like Carpenter, King, Speilburg, etc.

BUT it wasnt suitable for kids.

You want your kid reading a comic that shows a guy throwing his girlfriend off a rollercoaster because he finds out she pregnant? On teh cover?

So, if you were a parent, you'd depend on others to tell your children what was appropriate for them to view, read, etc? That's the damn parents' job. When you start letting others tell you what is ok and not ok you are going down the slippery slope of censorship. PMRC anyone?

[Brazoo]

Aha-ha-ha! The PMRC photo on Wiki of that collection of weirdos with super-concerned looks on their faces is just priceless!

Here's a great "Mad" swipe at Wertham:

[cjefferys]

"Wertham was a crackpot!" Are you repeating someone else or have you read him ?

I read Seduction of the Innocent in it's entirety when I was in university. I stand by my statement that Wertham was a crackpot. Maybe a fame ***** too.

Have you read EVERy issue of EC . Have you seen the content?

I've probably missed some of the pre-trend stuff, but I've read virtually all of the New Trend and New Direction stuff. I've been reading EC for nearly 30 years now. So yes, I'm quite familiar with the content.

Gaines Jr just sprung the NEW DiRECTION on the stands to appeal to the vets who had just returned and sen some hard stuff and wanted thier comics harder.

Not at all. The New Direction titles were a desperate effort for EC to stay alive due to the Code restrictions. Since horror and crime titles were practically banned (including some of the words EC used in the very titles themselves), they had to scramble to create new titles and new genres to replace the horror and crime stuff. And since most of these issues were code approved, it was hardly "the hard stuff". Unfortunately, it was horror and crime that was their bread and butter, EC used the profits from those books to publish the lesser selling books like the SF and war stuff, just because they were proud of those books.

I don't think anyone on here argued that all material is equally appropriate for kids and adults. A few of us are just arguing FOR parental responsibility and AGAINST censorship. The code did NOT stop kids from being influenced in negative ways and committing crimes. It DID kill EC Comics and nearly destroyed the comic industry.

The code was a complete sham. If you think it's main purpose was protecting kids as a rating system you should do some more research. It was created by EC's competition because they were too cowardly to stand up for their own rights while Gaines was busy defending free speech. The code was just a political maneuver which was also used by the other publishers to add all kinds of anti-EC comics concessions to weaken EC in the market. Famously one new rule stated that the words "horror" or "terror" or "weird" could not be used on a cover. That doesn't sound like a deliberate attempt to take down EC to you?

On top of everything else the code authority even had a creepy anti-progressive agenda. They objected to an EC story where an astronaut revealed that he was black at the end. So no, I really don't think there was much value in the code.

Exactly. You took the words out my mouth, you nailed it.

[thunderbolt]

Aha-ha-ha! The PMRC photo on Wiki of that collection of weirdos with super-concerned looks on their faces is just priceless!

Here's a great "Mad" swipe at Wertham:

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...cWerthless.jpg

Nail on the head, the nut job Wertham could have taken anything and turned it into the reason kids are delinquants, he just chose comics.

[ctc]

>either way it's not very conducive to the idea of free speech

Funny thung with ratings systems; they actually WORSEN the "problem" 'cos you open up legit lines for more scandalous material. The PMRC got mentioned, and some of you propbably remember the video game flap of the 90's that led to a game rating sytem. And if it wasn't for those, we wouldn't have Gangsta rap or Grand Theft Auto since both wouldn't have recieved mainstream release. The complaints generated publicity (nobody cared about Mortal Kombat when it came out, but a year later when we learned it was bad for us....) and the rating system allows mainstream companies to go all hardcore 'cos they can just slap on a disclaimer. (There's a great discussion of this in the "Heavy: The Story of Metal" doccumentary.) I think the Senate hearings on comics was the only time this sort of thing WORKED; probably because it was the only time any sort of consequence was forwarded by the target. (That is, the publishers who enacted the code.)

....although I recall the video game rating system was self-inflicted too.

Don C.

[samurainoir]

There is a rumour that the producers of Married with Children sent the woman who spearheaded protests against them a fruitbasket every year they were renewed for another season for about a decade.

There was a huge ratings surge for the show on the fledgling Fox Network at the time the protests started and MwC went on to become one of the most popular and long running shows on Fox.

They couldn't have bought that kind of publicity.
(same with the protests around The Simpsons)

[thunderbolt]

The Simpsons even got presidential bashing from George and Babs Bush.

[fallensaviour]

How could you tell every book , website , video game , movie, etc was appropriate if things like the Comics Seal wasnt created?

That's easy check it out before hand that's what I do and I have three kids it's part of the job of being a parent!!!
To rely or depend on somebody else to tell you good or bad is lazy and ignorant!!!
It ranks right up there with idiots that slip and fall on ice outside somebodies house and sue them because they fell on the ice.Or people who spill hot coffee on their crotch and sue because the cup never said the coffee was hot!!!

Hey its great stuff warped minds like Carpenter, King, Speilburg, etc.
BUT it wasnt suitable for kids.
You want your kid reading a comic that shows a guy throwing his girlfriend off a rollercoaster because he finds out she pregnant? On teh cover?

Wertham isn't even close to the writing genius of King,Carpenter or spielberg he doesn't even belong in the same sentence as those guys!!!
The only thing they all have in common is they all wrote fantasy,only Wertham believed his own drivel!!!
And amassed a cult like following.Kind of reminds me of David koresh!!!

Ridiculous plain and simple.

[samurainoir]

Wertham isn't even close to the writing genius of King,Carpenter or spielberg he doesn't even belong in the same sentence as those guys!!!

I think what Dave is trying to express is that Stephen King, John Carpenter and Stephen Spielberg all acknowledge the influence of EC Comics on them growing up and their creative work as adults.

Although i'm not quite grasping the Wertham connection.

[fallensaviour]

Yes I understand,I was being sarcastic...Perhaps this would help.

Does that help???...LOL

[samurainoir]

Yes I understand,I was being sarcastic...Perhaps this would help.

Does that help???...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF7MroTLDfU

[fallensaviour]

^^^^ Exactly ^^^^ LOL

[TrueDave]

By "new Direction" I meant the NEW "new Direction" M.D. , Panic, Valor, Psychoanalysis. Piracy etc.

Post Wetham blow up.

I do not know much about the details of the seal. I do know Swamp Thing Lost it and I thaought it was cool as a teen then Jenette Khan ( I think) censeored the Jesus Meeet sSwamp Thing story and I didnt like it.

Back then and today you cant preread EVERYTHING a kid sees. I just dont see how it could have been possible then or now. Theres no wauy you could absolutely see everything first .No way to keep a comic out of a kids hand.

I see what you are saying about what the code did.

It should have split the comics business instead of censoring it. Our Hobby would have been reconized as legit a lot sooner.

Rather than make ALL comics suitable for kids you wish they had reconized some comics were intended for different audiences.

Oh yeah that would have been great . Never even thought of it. Comics as legitimate adult entertainment took a long time.

Wertham I have not read much on besides a few Comic Mag Articles and his book.

Excellent point abut juvinille deliquents and comic books. Everybody reads then so oit proves nothing. I agree .

I also thought his ideas on Homosexuality and Batman and Superman belittling humankinds accomplisments were silly.

I would like to read a non biased story about what happened back then. I get the whole witch hunt thing. I'm familiatr with it when Moms went after Aurora Models .

I do think its ironic Werthams book is out of print yet EC is being reprinted constantlly.