Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[thunderbolt]

I think you're disrerspectful for thinking that....either that or you just need
some kind of justification for me disagreeing with you. Sad.

NO, it just seems like you disagree with everything in any given thread. That is the sad part. Just look at this thread, page after page of argument that has gotten nowhere. Personally I think Supes rogues can be every bit as good if handled properly. For the most part Byrne and Bruce Timm seem to have gotten it right. Before the Timm-iverse, the last time Luthor was handled right was the Superman serial with Kirk Alyn. The Hackman/Spacey version was poorly handled, especially the Hackman one which had a camp Batman 1966 flavor to it.

[samurainoir]

I think Byrne was really hit and miss the Superman's Rogues. On the one hand, turning Luthor into a "legitimate" Businessman and Mastermind was incredibly innovative and opened up entirely new avenues to explore that they had exhausted with "Mad Scientist" Lex. It turned him into a constant threat and an ongoing supporting character for the following decades. Although I understand that Marv Wolfman had quite a bit of input into that as well.

I feel Byrne's Brainiac was a bit of a convoluted Misfire. That led to all those different iterations that Geoff Johns finally cleaned up recently.

And as successful as the "Terminator" style Metallo was from the visual action aspect of the comics, there was something to be desired about losing many aspects of his personality and motivations in the process of beefing him up. He seemed to be simply "muscle" for the past few decades as opposed to the schemer he was in the 70's.

Screaming Banshee was an interesting creation, particularly when she was drawn by Mike Mignola. Glad she's finally getting some more play.

I guess in some respects, Byrne was the one who jumped back to Kirby and made Darkseid a Superman threat and pulled various New Gods threads into the Superman corner of the DCU.

All in all though (and my memory of that era is kind of hazy admittedly), did Byrne add a lot to the Superman Rogues in his run?

I agree with whomever pointed out earlier that Doomsday was probably the first A-list Superman bad guy that had "stuck" in decades. I even have a hard time placing Metallo or Parasite into that "A" category, and they were created in the 70's I think.

[thunderbolt]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex. Its the part of his proposal that DC kept. Byrne reworked Prankster, Toyman, Bizzaro, Mxy into creepier actual threats.

[samurainoir]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex. Its the part of his proposal that DC kept. Byrne reworked Prankster, Toyman, Bizzaro, Mxy into creepier actual threats.

I liked Byrne tragic and creepy Bizarro. Can't remember his Prankster, Mxy and Toyman too well though. What did Byrne do with them? It wasn't Byrne who made the Toyman into a child killing seriel killer was it? I wan't to say it was Roger Stern, but my memory of that era isn't too good since I lost interest soon after Byrne's departure back to Marvel.

Were there any other memorably Superman Rogues that Byrne created?

[samurainoir]

Do we consider Lobo part of Superman's Rogues these days? I always think it's fun whenever they put these two together, particularly in the animated series.

[samurainoir]

^^ Actually Marv Wolfman is credited with Citizen Lex.

I think you're right about Wolfman's contribution being the Businessman. Although I think Byrne handled Citizen Lex more memorably. I'm thinking about the defining moments in The Man of Steel series where Lex comes right out and lays it on the line for Superman, and in particular that one issue of Superman where Lex tries to entice a waitress at a remote diner into dropping her life and coming with him. It seemed much more evil to mess with that poor lady's life like that on a whim than to threaten the world with a death ray in some respects.

I actually kind of wish they had followed up on the Lois, Lex, Superman relationship traingle more in the beginning. Drawing it out a bit more.

[thunderbolt]

Letsee, Prankster was a fallen kiddie TV show host, Toyman was pretty much his oldschool roots,Mxy's rules were changed a bit where he didn't always have to be tricked into saying his name backwards, it was for the first time, but next time it will be something different.

[samurainoir]

Letsee, Prankster was a fallen kiddie TV show host, Toyman was pretty much his oldschool roots,Mxy's rules were changed a bit where he didn't always have to be tricked into saying his name backwards, it was for the first time, but next time it will be something different.

Sounds like fun to go back and reread them. I'll have to go dig those out! Thanks for pointing them out. I don't think I ever went back to reread Byrne's run since they originally came out two decades ago!

[The Toyroom]

I agree with whomever pointed out earlier that Doomsday was probably the first A-list Superman bad guy that had "stuck" in decades. I even have a hard time placing Metallo or Parasite into that "A" category, and they were created in the 70's I think.

Metallo was created in the 50s (in fact I think his first appearance was also in the same issue that Supergirl 1st appeared in). The Parasite was created by a young Jim Shooter in the 60s.

[The Toyroom]

Toyman was pretty much his oldschool roots

I think Toyman had some connections to LexCorp....

[The Toyroom]

And as successful as the "Terminator" style Metallo was from the visual action aspect of the comics, there was something to be desired about losing many aspects of his personality and motivations in the process of beefing him up. He seemed to be simply "muscle" for the past few decades as opposed to the schemer he was in the 70's.

This version is officially gone...Geoff Johns just rebooted John Corben/Metallo with a new origin in Superman:Secret Origin #5.

[samurainoir]

This version is officially gone...Geoff Johns just rebooted John Corben/Metallo with a new origin in Superman:Secret Origin #5.

Just read that issue yesterday! I quite enjoyed it. Particularly since it does give him a more complex and emotional relationship with General Lane, Lois and Clark.

Hopefully they can follow this up in the current ongoing series in present continuity.

[BlackKnight]

This version is officially gone...Geoff Johns just rebooted John Corben/Metallo with a new origin in Superman:Secret Origin #5.

That Book Was Awesome.
With Secret Origin ..., and the Last Stand of New Krypton Arc with the Legion ...., I am Actually Enjoying Superman Titles the Last Month or so .., over anything in the Bat Camp. ... But the Ras/Drake arc in Red Robin is good too imo.

[madmarva]

You know the more I think about the initial questions on this thread, I think it goes back to Batman just being a better all-around and more broadly relateable character than Superman.

Personally, I prefer Superman to Batman because of the basic optimistic outlook of the character, but Batman is more cool. He can be threatened by lesser threats than Superman and there is more inherent danger to being Batman, which should make his adventures more thrilling not matter who the villain is. Batman deals in the dirt and grime and smog and grit of the city while Superman flies above it.

Johns does have a great way with villains. The work he done with Sinestro and Black Hand has really upgraded both villains. He's not done a lot with Hector Hammond, but what he has done has been super creepy. I would like to see Johns revise his origin.

Johns has done some nice stuff with Parasite and Metallo, making them better characters in secret origins and his version of Brainiac and Zod which Robinson and Gates are using right now in the Superman books has elevated them to a greater level of prominence and threat.

Johns in his Zod story and Brianiac story also latched on to the idea that the only way to truly get at Superman is to threaten or harm the people he loves.

Brianiac now is probably the second biggest threat in the DCU next to Darksied.

[The Toyroom]

Johns does have a great way with villains. The work he done with Sinestro and Black Hand has really upgraded both villains. He's not done a lot with Hector Hammond, but what he has done has been super creepy. I would like to see Johns revise his origin.

Johns has done some nice stuff with Parasite and Metallo, making them better characters in secret origins and his version of Brainiac and Zod which Robinson and Gates are using right now in the Superman books has elevated them to a greater level of prominence and threat.

That's one of the points I was trying to make earlier when things got side-tracked....Superman's villains CAN be deadly...it's just been a long time since anyone has treated them that way. It's been over 20 years since Byrne's reboot and like 30 or so since guys like Metallo and Parasite were real threats to Superman during the Swan days of the 70s.

Anyone remember when the Parasite first returned post-Crisis? He wasn't even a Superman foe by that point and he was initially rebooted as a enemy for Firestorm working for the Suicide Squad. And I think he was green.