Why does Batman have a better Rogues Gallery than Superman?

[huedell]

I think its a losing battle to put the 1966 show on such a high pedestal
and discredit Burton's Bat-stuff at the same time---especially regarding
the characterization----and especially regarding the characterization of
Penguin in particular.

I believe that the 1966 show was more about a satirical sensibility
that pervaded the whole show and was more than the characters
themselves.

Hate Burton's Bat-stuff---that's totally cool...but the Burton movies
actually defined the characters a bit more...motivations and whatnot---
stuff that the 1966 show didn't address...again, that's fine and
the show was a huge sucess and I loved it....but you can't
paint it into something it wasn't....and conversely you can't take away
from the Burton movies something so basically there....even if you don't like
it...its still there.

[TrueDave]

I agree The Burton Penguin was just Burtonized. It was more angsty Poe stuff than Cobblepot. He did not to most of the penguins trades and I liked the duckmobile .

Merideth "quacked " a lot because he was wasnt a smoker and was actually coughing out the cigarette smoke.

least thats what i read back in the day.

[huedell]

Aheh...doubtless, several members here feel that way with this thread...

Of course, perhaps I'm contradicting myself

Hey...I pointed out exactly where I thought you were doing that
contradiction...if that's not a reason to challenge your take then I don't know what IS.

On the other hand...that quote you just made of mine...it had Toyroom
challenging a point I made by taking a small part of what I said and
unsuccessfully attempting to discredit it (re: Burton's Penguin's
characterization which he attempted say had little thought put into it
when the whole "discarded socialite" aspect was loud and clear in Burton's vision---- and then misdefining "motivation" to boot).

I'm not saying "don't argue"-----I'm just saying don't pick a post apart
to merely argue---welll, that's up for debate----and you can say pot/kettle
....but I'm doing my best.

If you disagree with me saying you contradicted yourself by saying that
you wanted something deeper from DeVito's Penguin yet you still
think Meredith's 1 dimensional quacker of a Penguin had brought the
character better realized than it had ever been....then let's
hear about it, eh?

[huedell]

I agree The Burton Penguin was just Burtonized. It was more angsty Poe stuff than Cobblepot. He did not to most of the penguins trades and I liked the duckmobile .

Thank goodness because it gave the character depth I have not seen before
or since....stuff that I, frankly, liked.

Merideth "quacked " a lot because he was wasnt a smoker and was actually coughing out the cigarette smoke.

Thank goodness, for if not for that gimmicky "quack" and Meredith's
throaty voice, DeVito wouldn't have gotten his paycheck...nor that juicy part
years later.

Burton was saddled with THE PENGUIN because the 1966 show popularized him....now actually CHARACTERIZING him...that's something that was lacking
in the '66 show and that Burton's attempted to do. Personally, I liked it a lot.

[PNGwynne]

^I think the depth of characterization on the "66 show is comparable to comics of the time. Several show scripts were based on actual comics. The camp/satiric element is another layer aimed at adult viewers. I'm not blind to the nuances of the Burton movies, which I often agree with and which you have already detailed.

A "serious" movie made 25 years after a satiric TV adaptation should bring something different or new to the table. But these offerings are not per se classic, iconic or integral to the overall concept of the character. They may be enjoyable within the framework of a specific director's vision, be it Burton or Nolan.

Worthy elements will be embraced & pulled into mainstream comics.

My specific concern with the Burton Penguin is not the Penguin/Batman duality or the Cobblepot/Wayne duality--these are interesting and have been used in comics as well, and sometimes mixed.

No, my complaint is with making Cobblepot a mutated freak to support these motivations. That is the easy way out, and Batman already has many "freakish" foes whose motivations depend on their freakishness.

I think it is much more challenging, and less superficial, to make Penguin a sane character, insecure about his perceived physical & social shortcomings, and have that serve as his motivation. The Penguin, handled well, can be another negative reflection of Batman/Wayne without adding the cheat of deformity. In fact, deformity pushes the character away from the quasi-legitimacy that has made the character more formidable since the '90s.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy seeing DeVito "chew the scenery," as you put it.

[samurainoir]

Flaming Carrot's rouge's gallery is WAY better. Flying Dead Dog, Hitler's Feet, Death, The Chair!!!

Flaming Carrot does have incredibly inventive villains.


Although I put The Tick's just slightly ahead based on animated version of The Mad Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.

[huedell]

My specific concern with the Burton Penguin is not the Penguin/Batman duality or the Cobblepot/Wayne duality--these are interesting and have been used in comics as well, and sometimes mixed.

No, my complaint is with making Cobblepot a mutated freak to support these motivations. That is the easy way out, and Batman already has many "freakish" foes whose motivations depend on their freakishness.

I think it is much more challenging, and less superficial, to make Penguin a sane character, insecure about his perceived physical & social shortcomings, and have that serve as his motivation. The Penguin, handled well, can be another negative reflection of Batman/Wayne without adding the cheat of deformity. In fact, deformity pushes the character away from the quasi-legitimacy that has made the character more formidable since the '90s.

i really enjoyed this last post but specifically the chunk I quoted^^^

I have a connection to PENGUIN thru nostalgia---that stuff that me and
Toyroom were going back and forth over earlier----
so I'm always anticipating learning more about the character and seeing him
focused on more than many other Bat-villains.

As much as I love Burton's Penguin, I kinda view that version the same way
I view the characters in SUPERMAN RETURNS....cool....awesome to watch but
ultimately not constructed the best for the "long haul"---granted I'm
over simplifying here but I'm in a rush to make this post....
its basically an alternate reality than what I see as being closer to
the "trueist" versions of the DCU----admittedly most of my vision of that
"truism" comes from BTAS/STAS/JLU etc...and not from the comics
(altho SOME does)....so, I'm game to see what comes next for Penguin and I'm perfectly fine that Burton's remain where it is, a characterization for just
one movie....that dies at the end.

[samurainoir]

Did anyone see March of the Penguins?


It game me an entirely new insight into the plight of the Penguins in Batman Returns.

[PNGwynne]

^lol

Well put, Hue.

BTW, I'm not too familiar with Flaming Carrot, but The Tick is hilarious, as are his foes. How can you not like El Cid & Octave Paganini? And Chairface Chippendale--brilliant!

The Tick is like Batman '66 on acid


Samurai, per your earlier comment on WW's rogues---I'd love to see Paula vG return as a foe and Dr. Psycho given more prominence. His mind-****ing misogyny seems a perfect foil for the Amazon. Hasn't he been used recently in SSSV?

[samurainoir]

So whatever happened to the Master Jailer anyways?


Did he ever show up Post Crisis?

[samurainoir]

I would love for Nolan to do a "Gang War" take on the Gotham villains, and I think Philip Seymore Hoffman would be the perfect candidate to go up against Johnny Depp's Riddler with Batman trying desperately to keep the lid on the resulting powder keg.

[PNGwynne]

Austin Hough should do an obscure villain of Master Jailer...

I still think Hoffman is an inspired idea (& the best choice) for a Nolan Penguin, esp. after seeing Capote.

[madmarva]

Yeah, I liked Master Jailer and The Atomic Skull back in the 1970s. There was also a cool couple of issues of Action Comics where he took on Amazo. I think it was in those issues that the Super Mobile, imortalized by Super Powers action figure line, first showed up.

There was also the Galactic Golem and Superman had a pretty cool fight with Soloman Grundy in the early 300s of his title.

As for the Penguin, I like him as he's been portrayed lately as a mob boss type of guy. I wouldn't mind seeing Joe Pesci taking a run at the character.

I'd love to see a Batman film where he takes down a Good fellas-type mob. Maybe Batman vs. the Sopranos.

[The Toyroom]

Sounds like you want to argue my post no matter what point I made, eh?

DUDE! Back the f' off! I'm not even trying to argue with you and you keep up with the "poor me" routine! Stop being a ******! In the post you quote I was trying to offer some insight into Burton's take on the character but apparently you only see/read what you want to into things and it's all about ganging up on Hugh. I'm done with you! I can see why we have the "ignore" feature now.

BOTTOM LINE IS IMO....Burton's "Penguin" could have easily been a character in ANY OTHER BURTON FILM.....Just because it was a Batman movie became secondary in regards to the character IMO.

[huedell]

DUDE! Back the f' off! I'm not even trying to argue with you and you keep up with the "poor me" routine! Stop being a ******! In the post you quote I was trying to offer some insight into Burton's take on the character but apparently you only see/read what you want to into things and it's all about ganging up on Hugh. I'm done with you! I can see why we have the "ignore" feature now.

BOTTOM LINE IS IMO....Burton's "Penguin" could have easily been a character in ANY OTHER BURTON FILM.....Just because it was a Batman movie became secondary in regards to the character IMO.

hi--im out at a resturaunt right now posting thru my phone--but geez chill man, the ignore button is for weirdos as far as im concerned---u have the option of not dealing with my posts without blocking them entirely. also please excuse that i thought you were being overly slanted instead of insightful but burton making dark characters doesnt seem particularly insightful to me. bavk to my sushi-- but i just had to post. be cool anthony.