AnyOne Know What's Up With Namor ?

[samurainoir]

i used to have that comic sold it for a buck, d'oh!! and yeah i'm waiting for namor to come back too. he's a great character cause he's a not really a "good or bad guy" he looks out for his best interest which makes for good drama.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how they interpret Namor's wilder early days in Ed Brubaker's Marvels Project, particularly the antagonism between him and the original Human Torch.

[goldenryan]

I did like the moment that Doom and Namor shared. I really enjoyed Super Villain Team-up as a kid, and even though their initial hookups on that title were tenuous at best (and probably still is), it looks like they have fallen into a rhythm over the years. "Same thing we always do... you take the sea, I'll take the land."

http://dailsbargains.com/cart/images/COM%20-%20510.jpg

i used to have that comic sold it for a buck, d'oh!! and yeah i'm waiting for namor to come back too. he's a great character cause he's a not really a "good or bad guy" he looks out for his best interest which makes for good drama.

[The Toyroom]

Hey BK, Check out this thread: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=134443 It's quite lengthy (at 34 pages) but it's very funny and very insightful into the "art" of Greg Land. This guy swipes EVERYTHING....real photos, other artists, even his own work....again and again and again.

[The Toyroom]

Google "Greg Land" and I'm sure some of his sources will come up There's tons of stuff about his swipes out there on the net....

[BlackKnight]

they're going outside the industry and grabbing whatever porno mag and blatantly tracing/lightboxing the images.

WOW ....
It seems I need to find the Issues you are Reading,.. or Figure out what Porn You Read.

[ctc]

>I'm saying it's not just a difference between modern and vintage comics.

....although it was less prevalent in the older books. Probably not by design; but owing to the insane schedules the artists had to keep up. The cartoonists would slip into their default mode a lot more often.... rendering each character as a more standard template instead of an individual design. The newer, more realistic artists can get more time to put their stuff together.

You see it a lot with the folks who do one-off paintings, such as for novel covers. You can usually guess who was the inspiration for each. (Or; if you know such things, which live model posed for it.)

>(and Betty Page as well),

Oh yeah, the Rocketeer. That was actually an in-joke that was part of the story.

Don C.

[Earth 2 Chris]

The first thing I ever saw Land on was the original Nightwing mini from the mid 90s. He swiped quite a bit from Alan Davis on that one, esp on Batman and Alfred.

I think that's the difference for sure. Guys like Gil Kane cast actors, friends, etc as the characters, but they didn't redraw photo stills like they were working on a TV series adaptation.

I wish I can remember which artist it was who was his assistant back in the day.

George Perez started out as Buckler's assistant. I read an article in the last BackIssue that David Micheline quite the "Star Hunters" comic series over Buckler blatantly swiping the main character's spaceship design from a then-current Saturday morning cartoon.

Chris

[samurainoir]

Yeah tracing and swiping have been around since the Golden Age but that was more within the industry, so to speak. Yes, Gil Kane may have "cast" Martin Milner as Guy Gardner but he was still drawing the character from scratch, freehand, whatever you want to call it. The resemblence is there but it's still all "Sugarlips" Kane....

As was Kirby's very distinct style. Dave Stevens might have been drawing Betty Page, but there is no mistaking a Dave Stevens woman, even if he's using photos as reference.

I know most folks aren't fond of Deadato's style but I think he belongs in this camp as well, unless there are direct photographic tracings from him? As far as I can tell, that is Tommy Lee Jones, but through the filter of Deadato's own current heavy-blacks "noir" style.

Looking at how process heavy Alex Ross' stuff is, you can't really say he's guilty of being lazy. The reliance on photo reference starts to kick in, but you can accuse his main influence Norman Rockwell of the same things. At the end of the day, it's distracting that the Professor from Gilligan's Island is there, but that art is all Ross and you can pick him out of a line-up of other artists that come from a photorealist tradition. Plus the companies are paying him the big bucks to do this because the fans lap it up.

Things start to get fuzzy when we arrive at Bryan Hitch. There is no mistaking his stuff, and we all know he was originally an Alan Davis clone. But now he's managing to trace Sam Jackson and meld it with a more detailed realistic style that still has that bit of Alan Davis in it. At the end of the day, that is still his own popular style even if he's sometimes a tracer. I can only imagine the kinds of pressure he must be under to produce the detailed work that the fans expect, while everyone is yelling at him about his chronic lateness. Here is a guy who is probably better off on special projects instead of stepping up to the "monthly" plate time and again.

The problem I have with a lot of these modern guys, take Greg Land, for example, is they're not "paying homage" to a fellow artist by swiping or even using them as an influence....they're going outside the industry and grabbing whatever porno mag or People magazine and blatantly tracing/lightboxing the images. And when the majority of their pencils in an issue can be sourced from somewhere else, that's pathetic....

The big problem with most of Land's stuff now is the tracing is overpowering what style he had been exhibiting earlier (in his Crossgen stuff). In Ultimate Power, Ultimage Fantastic Four, X-Men etc you can tell this guys doesn't really do much in the way of Casting because he's tracing a different person each time he draws someone like Sue Storm or Emma Frost. It's not like he's using Pamela Anderson every time he's drawing a particular character so that you can say his Sue Storm is Pam. He's always "off model" these days more often than not, and his storytelling has really suffered. I can never tell who is doing what in the pages of Uncanny X-Men and always pray that the next issue is a Dodson issue. I understand deadline pressures and shortcuts, particularly since he seems to be drawing casts of thousands in everything he does. Maybe this is a guy who is better off not doing the monthly grind and going back to his earlier process.

[samurainoir]

But in those cases, Kane created those characters. Mallev suddenly deciding ol' Flat-top Namor is supposed to look like a Goodfella is just wrong, IMHO.

Bendis' script called for Namor to look a bit down on his luck to be resorting to this, but given Maleev's penchant for drawing more gritty "street level stuff", that was taking it way too far.

Dodson's got him looking more like the Imperious Rex of old...

Not only did Mazzucheli use Peck for Bruce Wayne, Ross did too somewhat, in Kingdom Come.

Looking like he stepped right out of Old Gringo!

I've read that Rich Buckler is kind of notorious for swiping.

I wish I can remember which artist it was who was his assistant back in the day. I had read in an interview with that artist, that Buckler kept a huge filing cabinet filled with reference material to swipe from (mostly Kirby) and that part of the assistants job was to comb through comics and magazines looking for swipe material. Of course now google image search has replaced the big metal filing cabinets.

[The Toyroom]

Yeah tracing and swiping have been around since the Golden Age but that was more within the industry, so to speak. Yes, Gil Kane may have "cast" Martin Milner as Guy Gardner but he was still drawing the character from scratch, freehand, whatever you want to call it. The resemblence is there but it's still all "Sugarlips" Kane....

The problem I have with a lot of these modern guys, take Greg Land, for example, is they're not "paying homage" to a fellow artist by swiping or even using them as an influence....they're going outside the industry and grabbing whatever porno mag or People magazine and blatantly tracing/lightboxing the images. And when the majority of their pencils in an issue can be sourced from somewhere else, that's pathetic.....

[samurainoir]

Sorry .. you can spend the rest of the day posting vintage examples (and I could counter with a zillion modern ones from the "Swipe File" column on Comic Book resources... but we'd be exactly at the same place.

I still feel it's all extent and degree... My eyes tell me that the likenesses are far too similar now compared to back then and far more frequent.. (but what do I know, I've only been reading comics since '66?? LOL)

I don't think the the point of simply saying "yes" and "no" back and forth. We're having a discussion and in doing so, we clarify points and positions.

I believe you are correct in your assertions that "Casting" is more noticeable now, and it has everything to do with contemporary printing technology vs ink blobs on newsprint, and our oversaturated celebrity culture. Alex Ross has in fact built a career on increased versimilitude with his painted images of Superheroes (as Don pointed out in terms of the more "realistic" art), this would not have been possible in the sixties outside of the covers.

I'm simply saying that "Casting" is not some new innovation and that there are many examples out there where direct likeness are used. Particularly when you start to realize how often an artist will "Cast" himself or the people around him. Frazetta himself is recognizable in much of his artwork, including his comic stuff. There's no doubt that Dave Stevens resemblance to Cliff Secord is not coincidental (and Betty Page as well), ditto Matt Wagner and Kevin Matchstick from Mage, John Cassaday as the Drummer in Planetary etc etc.

But this is all about increased access and information technology that is now available to us at our fingertips. You would have to have a huge library of magazines and comics to have been able to catch all the swipes back in the day.

If I failed to make my point, I would not have been able find any vintage likenesses at all. Not volume of likenesses.

But Tracing, Swiping, general laziness... as old as time itself. Not a contemporary thing at all. Whether you are using paper and a lightbox or photoshop, it was as prevalent back then as it ever was today.

[Earth 2 Chris]

Yeah, casting goes way back. Kane also based Hal Jordan on Paul Newman, although I never really saw the influence much beyond the first few years. Milner isn't one I knew about, but it seems obvious now.

But in those cases, Kane created those characters. Mallev suddenly deciding ol' Flat-top Namor is supposed to look like a Goodfella is just wrong, IMHO.

Not only did Mazzucheli use Peck for Bruce Wayne, Ross did too somewhat, in Kingdom Come.

Good call on the "casts" and "traces" list. I've read that Rich Buckler is kind of notorious for swiping. I had no idea as a kid.

Chris

[samurainoir]

Also keep in mind we are talking about two issues that operlap....

"Tracing" and "Casting".

As far as I can tell from a distance, Alex Ross, Kirby, Gil Kane, Muzzicelli "Cast".

Greg Land, Rich Buckler, Greg Land, Rob Liefeld, Bob Kane "Trace".

Bryan Hitch both "Casts" and "Traces".

[60'schild]

Sorry .. you can spend the rest of the day posting vintage examples (and I could counter with a zillion modern ones from the "Swipe File" column on Comic Book resources... but we'd be exactly at the same place.

I still feel it's all extent and degree... My eyes tell me that the likenesses are far too similar now compared to back then and far more frequent.. (but what do I know, I've only been reading comics since '66?? LOL)

[samurainoir]

Something else to consider... swiping isn't limited to Photos found on the internet, just as "laziness" isn't a modern invention. Vintage comics are full of swipes with artists swiping from other artists, from Bob Kane to Rich Buckler.

Hal Foster original


Bob Kane swipe


Rich Bucker swipe.


Jack Kirby original.



It's really no different than Greg Land tracing the Celebrity/Porn Star du jour is it?


Laziness isn't a fad, it's just laziness and artist have been doing it for centuries.