Batman's fate in Final Crisis #6--MAJOR SPOILERS

[EMCE Hammer]

I like my pretend to make a reasonable effort to stay within its established parameters and not feel like I'm trying to decipher the rosetta stone as I wade through it. However goofy the foundation is, it's still the foundation. One man's "groundbreaking" or "innovative" is another man's "anything goes, there are no rules" cop out. Sometimes when most people don't like something and think it's crap....they're right. This whole thing has been way too disjointed and frustrating, and I've been too distracted trying to figure out what's going on to enjoy this at all.

I thought DC's purpose going into all this was to create a cohesive universe, or multiverse if you will. I think they've actually managed to get farther away from that than they have ever been. What a waste; maybe they'll get it right next time.

[The Toyroom]

I thought DC's purpose going into all this was to create a cohesive universe, or multiverse if you will. I think they've actually managed to get farther away from that than they have ever been. What a waste; maybe they'll get it right next time.

But will there be any readers left by that point who even care...

[johnnystorm]

Quote from Rich Johnston's latest Lying in the Gutters column at Comic Book Resources website:


"ONE FINAL DAY?
Is "Final Crisis" DC's "One Last Day?" Just as a third of Marvel's Spider-Man readers stopped buying Spidey comics after Peter Parker sold his marriage to the devil, so to DC appear to be dealing with a mini-rebellion. While not apparent as much online, retailers have told me about longtime readers so incensed by "Final Crisis" that they have stopped their DCU books. The complaints usually involve an abscence of comprehension, a sense of condescension and a huge lack of cohesion."

[The Toyroom]

^ Money talks

[Earth 2 Chris]

I read Johnston's comments as well. Nice to see that there may be some hell to pay for all of this undelivered hype.

Here's an idea, and it's one that's not too far fetched. DiDio is apparently entrenched at DC. He says he loves the late 70s/early 80s era of DC. Hand the reins over to Marv Wolfman and Len Wein. They were the Golden Boys of DC during that period. They rode into town and pretty much saved DC from total blandness. These guys KNOW these characters, and when other people weren't mucking around with their writing and editing, they did fantastic, exciting stuff with the DCU. While I disagree that Crisis on Infinite Earths was necessary at all, at least they told a compelling story, and set up a new universe that WOULD have worked had other creators followed their model.

Put them in charge as DCU editors emirtus, and let them work with Geoff Johns to work things out, and just tell DAMN GOOD stories again. Not an "event" every issue. But the monthly adventures of Fill-in-the-blank Man.

THAT would bring this disgruntled fanboy back to DC. Not stream-of-consciousness ego-stroking at the expense of beloved characters.

Chris

[ctc]

>These guys KNOW these characters, and when other people weren't mucking around with their writing and editing, they did fantastic, exciting stuff with the DCU.

....twenty years ago. The question is; how relevant would that be for the current audience? It's a tough call, since I suspect a large percentage of their readers are the old school, 80's guys. Another chunk would be the kids of those 80's fans, who read the comics 'cos of dad's prompting. So this would seem like a good idea; but I still feel that a lot of the disgruntledness the current readers feel is 'cos a lot of them have outgrown their books and don't realize it. They don't actually want a rehash of the good ol' days, they want that sense of discovery and surprise they felt back in those days. You're not gonna get that from reimplementing the old styles. You nedd to do something new.

Problem is, humans are creatures of inertia; and a lot of the old fans would balk at something TOO different. That's why I ponder the gradient the average fan uses to determine what's TOO different. Therein lies the hurdle. The fans want something new, but still exactly the same as the old. The new fans don't have that problem, but they're probably not too keyed up for the old school stuff, since old=bad, boring and irrelevant.

>The monitors go away cause its 2009 and its time to move on from Crisis and monitors just like anger dick head Miller Batman is a symbol for the 80s and modern comics so they are gone time to make new hottness like Green Lantern and maybe someone will make a Super young team book featuring Sonny Sumo.

Yeah. Like that. So as a producer you're working at crossed purpose. Batman may have name recognition, which is a plus; but he also comes with a LOT of baggage. Baggage that the hardcore FANS are loathe to let go of.

Don C.

[The Toyroom]

I read Johnston's comments as well. Nice to see that there may be some hell to pay for all of this undelivered hype.

Here's an idea, and it's one that's not too far fetched. DiDio is apparently entrenched at DC. He says he loves the late 70s/early 80s era of DC. Hand the reins over to Marv Wolfman and Len Wein. They were the Golden Boys of DC during that period. They rode into town and pretty much saved DC from total blandness. These guys KNOW these characters, and when other people weren't mucking around with their writing and editing, they did fantastic, exciting stuff with the DCU. While I disagree that Crisis on Infinite Earths was necessary at all, at least they told a compelling story, and set up a new universe that WOULD have worked had other creators followed their model.

Put them in charge as DCU editors emirtus, and let them work with Geoff Johns to work things out, and just tell DAMN GOOD stories again. Not an "event" every issue. But the monthly adventures of Fill-in-the-blank Man.

THAT would bring this disgruntled fanboy back to DC. Not stream-of-consciousness ego-stroking at the expense of beloved characters.

Chris

Sounds like a plan

Seriously though, this shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Wolfman is already involved with Johns on co-ordinating the DCU Online project.

Wein has recently returned to DC and has written some good stuff...the Libra story in "Final Crisis Secret Files" and "Superman/Batman Annual" #3 (where he re-introduced the concept of the Composite Superman in a creepy little story) come to mind. Both looked at old characters but neither felt dated to me. I don't think his writing is out of touch with today's audience.

[johnnystorm]

I'm not so certain on Wolfman...that B&B Raven/Supergirl book was horrible.

I'm thinking here that a lot of the issue with Final Crisis is not so much in any changes made as in how those changes were presented. I think many fans would buy into some of this better if it were done correctly instead of "artistically".

For example, when the original Crisis came out in the 1980S, a LOT of things happened, including major reboots of Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, JSA, etc. Some of it good, some not so good to me, but I really went along with it, particularly the Flash & Superman parts. And even the JSA, my most favorite group of all. I continued to buy the books, and while I may have complained some to my friends, I know for a fact I was not as angry about the changes then as I seem to be now.
And I think that comes from the fact that COIE was a coherant, well-plotted series, given the space needed to tell the tale, consistant characterization, and most of all, the company had a goal in sight. Sure, there were the "red sky" books that were published, and a couple characters got really screwed up through editorial meddling (HAWKMAN, I'm pointing at you), but all in all, it unfolded rather smoothly.
Come this time, DC has had over 3 years to work on this, and yet there were still storyline problems, artist issues, editorial snafus between series. Look at the fiasco that was Countdown...things happened at the beginning that were contradicted at the end. What was the purpose of Countdown Arena? Or The Ray Palmer spin-offs where everyone died at the end of each issue? Or the Death of the New Gods books that were contradicted within days of concluding...see what I mean?
Too much taken for granted, decisions made on a whim, and most of all- NOTHING EXPLAINED.

Think it's just me or the other old farts here? Obviously not, read the Johnston post. Go to this link where people are listing their questions about the series hoping people can answer:

Comics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book Resources Making a Final Crisis FAQ

And worst of all, the condescension from DC management. Go to Newsarama and watch the Dan Didio video where he attempts to answer questions by being cute. Listen to the crap answer about Batman using the gun- especially since the 52 series was based in part on Batman going away to find himself for a year AFTER USING A GUN!
Go to the Grant Morrison interview there as well and read where he says that he basically detests Wonder Woman so he dressed her in the dog outfit to show just how much. And this is the writer DC has entrusted with their TRINITY, a man who can't stand one of the Big Three?

But I can promise you this...a lot of thisstuff won't matter, because DC Editorial doesn't follow up, and many series simply won'y follow the new program (if there is one). Writers on a lot of books may aknowledge it for an issue otr two, then go on their own merry way. Perhaps Batman mostly will be affected, but I predict other stuff will get in the way of this Crisis things and in a year or so it will be largely forgotten as far as DC editorial is concerned, especially once they start producing the next Really-Final Crisis.

[Steeler80]

And worst of all, the condescension from DC management. Go to Newsarama and watch the Dan Didio video where he attempts to answer questions by being cute. Listen to the crap answer about Batman using the gun- especially since the 52 series was based in part on Batman going away to find himself for a year AFTER USING A GUN!
Go to the Grant Morrison interview there as well and read where he says that he basically detests Wonder Woman so he dressed her in the dog outfit to show just how much. And this is the writer DC has entrusted with their TRINITY, a man who can't stand one of the Big Three?

And therein lies my major problem with Didio. Not that he tries things that don't work, but if they don't work he tries to be all cute about it. It's never that it was just a poorly done story, no, it's fanboy overreaction, an unwillingness to look at anything new (well that and the general lack of cohesiveness on just about anything they're doing recently).

I'll say it again. From my experience of reading comics (since '76 with a break in between when I was too cool), editorial driven storylines usually don't work. Everything going on in the DCU is top-down storytelling and it shows. Get your top talent, put them on the books they're excited about, and let them tell some stories. Take a break from these event books (a year or two) and let the creators tell stories. If you need some event, let it grow organically just as Sinestro Corps war which basically ran in two books. Editors need to stop trying to dictate storytelling and get back to editing and coordinating.

And the same storytelling principles that applied 20 years ago still apply. A good story is still a good story. There's been some tropes that have changed, sure. There's a lot less exposition (no more of "Batman swings on a gossamer thread of strengthened alloy." and the art has Batman swinging). But good storytelling is still good storytelling. Take a look at Captain America if you don't believe me.

[johnnystorm]

From my experience of reading comics (since '76 with a break in between when I was too cool), editorial driven storylines usually don't work.

Agreed...and it's not just DC. How about all those Marvel Annual crossover events...Atlantis Attacks, Evolutionary War? Shoehorning the Punisher into it, or Moon Knight? DC of course gave us DC Apes, that really god-awful future series of Annuals...

Again this is driving home my theory that Dan Didio chooses his next company project by shopping quarter-boxes at the flea market.

"Oh, look, Armageddon 2001 was SO COOL! Let's do it again as a plotline in Countdown! Oh, how about Superman in space? Worked the last time we did it, let's go again! Oh, hey Superman dying sold good...let's try that again, only this time we'll kill Batman...and maybe later Bane can break Superman's back! Well, that's enough planning to cover the first quarter...now to get me a Slushie!"

I think he really believes nobody will notice. And Quesada's not immune to this either. After 40 years he finally figured out monkeys & gorillas on the cover sell comics. Must have read Julie Schwartz' biography...look for a spate of Dinosaur covers, followed by flaming giants.