Jumbo alien, jumbo price

[Gorn Captain]

would you rather cater to 1000 people at $500 bucks a pop, or 10,000 at $50? .

I would rather have the 10,000 customers that can have their item at an affordable price ($50).
Since the price is then reasonable, these same 10,000 will come back for other items you are selling, creating a much bigger fanbase.
If you bet all your money on an elite group with a lot of cash to spend, and these eventually stop buying your overpriced items (or only have money for that one pricey thing), you will go down in flames.

And if the company consists of toy lovers themselves (not just businessmen), they might even empathize with their fellow collectors. They can make just as much money selling affordable toys and create a fan following...

[Access]

One thing I've learned in my 20 years in the pro Music business (Guitars, Sound equipment, etc) Any market like that, which would include Toys/collectables, is one based less on reason and more on emotion. That being said, the 'regular toy' market, like what Wal-Mart sells, is a completely different demographic. People in the 'emotional' market would rather pay $500 for a toy like this, so he can have a sense of exclusivity. All he would do is post pictures of it on forums like this to total strangers anyways, or try and hold on to it speculating its future sales price.

If the price is too low, the mystique is removed. Kinda like the $500 bottle of champagne, most wouldn't know the difference between it and a $10 bottle, but the high comes from bragging to others on facebook about how they had it.

[samurainoir]

I would rather have the 10,000 customers that can have their item at an affordable price ($50).
Since the price is then reasonable, these same 10,000 will come back for other items you are selling, creating a much bigger fanbase.
If you bet all your money on an elite group with a lot of cash to spend, and these eventually stop buying your overpriced items (or only have money for that one pricey thing), you will go down in flames.

And if the company consists of toy lovers themselves (not just businessmen), they might even empathize with their fellow collectors. They can make just as much money selling affordable toys and create a fan following...

That is an ideal situation, but your risk is high because it's extremely likely that there are not 10,000 customers out there. (The 10,000 number is a pretty arbitrary number. You would need much more to hit that price point imagine). What do you do with that unsold product? Dump it into deep discount at Big Lots, Matty style? Only you are not a company with the deep pockets filled by Barbie and Hot Wheels to absorb that loss. This sinks you as a company. Right out of the gate.

I honestly think folks don't understand in the collector's market place, you either have to make it for the high end collector or it doesn't get made at all. Comparing Hasbro to Gentle Giant is honestly ridiculous when you look at how different those two companies are. One is mass market, that makes toys for kids via major retail outlets worldwide, the other is niche, that makes high end collectibles for adults through their own website and specialty distributors like diamond. The production/manufacturing and distribution infrastructure, and financial models behind them are vastly different.

The evidence is not there to support that this smaller base of high end consumer will stop buying... how long has Sideshow been going now? They and Gentle Giant and Hot Toys and many more companies that have sprung up have all increased their production ad product range. I honestly don't think they would have gotten this deep into their range of 12" Star Wars figures at a lower price point/higher production number. They are certainly plentiful and still easily had at the current price point and production number, and seems to be working for them.

apply that logic to the marketplace for a high end bottle of wine. In what circumstance will they eventually stop buying an overpriced bottle of wine (or only have money for that one pricey wine)? Wine lovers with disposable income will always have money for an expensive bottle of wine.

[samurainoir]

That being said, the 'regular toy' market, like what Wal-Mart sells, is a completely different demographic.

BINGO! That's because they are TOYS first, purchased by parents for their kids to play with and eventually grow out of.

That is why that ten dollar Captain America figure at Walmart doesn't have to look like a miniature version of the actor from the movie. If they catch the adult collector at the same time, that's great, but their bread and butter is still KIDS. I think it's been noted that 3 3/4" Star Wars toys we played with as kids were hardly tiny replicas of Harrison Fords or Carrie Fishers either. It didn't really harm our play did it? Do we love them any less? (or Ape Face Wonder Woman?)

For the other kind of collector, that is why there are niche collectible companies that cater to that kind of product with the Sideshow Statues and the Hot Toys figures for collectors that do want miniature versions of Chris Evans.

If the price is too low, the mystique is removed. Kinda like the $500 bottle of champagne, most wouldn't know the difference between it and a $10 bottle, but the high comes from bragging to others on facebook about how they had it.

YES! The same applies to ANY other high priced luxury status item. Cars for instance... when do folks stop buying high priced cars if they can still afford it? High end statues and other collectibles are definitely status symbols within certain collecting community. Not saying it's a good thing or bad thing... just pointing out that it exists and will continue to exist.

We see that manifest in all manner of forms here... often high end vintage is coveted in that manner in these parts. And what makes that desirable? Price and availability are huge factors in the vintage world. Something that can often be created using price and availability as an axis to find out just what the market can bear in the contemporary collectible field.

[enyawd72]

^Sorry, but that $450 price tag is still nothing but pure greed on GG's part.

One can absolutely compare GG to Hasbro in this case. So the Alien is a niche collectible...okay, charge $100 for it. Assuming the production is 1/10th what a 31" Darth Vader is...the Vader figure is still nearly 25% larger than the Alien and costs 15 times less.
As for the exclusivity mentality that taints the collectibles hobby, I think companies using that as an excuse to charge exorbitant prices for things is outrageous. People have to deal with class warfare in everyday life as it is...bringing it into what is supposed to be a fun hobby makes me sick.
I may have a larger collection than some, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm better than them. It should never be about how much stuff one person has versus another, or how much it cost, but how much enjoyment it brings you and those you share it with.
Even here on these forums, we've seen some collectors reluctant to post pics of their collections because they're not huge or full of expensive items because they feel their collections are somehow inadequate or unworthy of sharing. That's just terrible. NO ONE should ever feel left out.
I think any practices by any company that fosters that type of collector exclusivity mentality is bad for the hobby.
I would be absolutely ecstatic if things like chase figures, limited editions, variants, and retailer exclusives all went away permanently, and we could go back to the pre-collector craze of just enjoying toys for being toys.

[Gorn Captain]

^Sorry, but that $450 price tag is still nothing but pure greed on GG's part.

One can absolutely compare GG to Hasbro in this case. So the Alien is a niche collectible...okay, charge $100 for it. Assuming the production is 1/10th what a 31" Darth Vader is...the Vader figure is still nearly 25% larger than the Alien and costs 15 times less.
As for the exclusivity mentality that taints the collectibles hobby, I think companies using that as an excuse to charge exorbitant prices for things is outrageous. People have to deal with class warfare in everyday life as it is...bringing it into what is supposed to be a fun hobby makes me sick.
I may have a larger collection than some, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm better than them. It should never be about how much stuff one person has versus another, or how much it cost, but how much enjoyment it brings you and those you share it with.
Even here on these forums, we've seen some collectors reluctant to post pics of their collections because they're not huge or full of expensive items because they feel their collections are somehow inadequate or unworthy of sharing. That's just terrible. NO ONE should ever feel left out.
I think any practices by any company that fosters that type of collector exclusivity mentality is bad for the hobby.
I would be absolutely ecstatic if things like chase figures, limited editions, variants, and retailer exclusives all went away permanently, and we could go back to the pre-collector craze of just enjoying toys for being toys.

And this is exactly how I feel about it all.
There's enough money to be made in this collector's market without overcharging and without making people unhappy because they can't afford the toy they would love to own.
And we're not talking about rare Fabergé eggs filled with gems and gold, we're just talking about factory produced pieces of plastic, that needn't cost an arm and a leg. I'm sure that they can produce the Alien and sell it at $100, and still make a decent profit. It's a rather basic figure with little paint application!

A happy collector keeps the hobby going.
An unhappy collectors ditches his toys out of frustration and leaves the playing field. And in this case, the seller loses his target audience completely.

Let's start the "Toys For Everyone!" campaign today!

[samurainoir]

^Sorry, but that $450 price tag is still nothing but pure greed on GG's part.

One can absolutely compare GG to Hasbro in this case. So the Alien is a niche collectible...okay, charge $100 for it. Assuming the production is 1/10th what a 31" Darth Vader is...the Vader figure is still nearly 25% larger than the Alien and costs 15 times less.

Hasbro has GIANT overall mass quantities and scale of production and is able to squeeze factories using this leverage. It's not just the amount of giant Vaders they make... it's the amount of EVERYTHING Hasbro makes. They have Walmart and other mass market retail outlets to squeeze factories on price points. I've got an uncle that runs electronics factories in China that has been telling me how ruthless the American big boxes have been on their margins because their scales and demand can cut them down to the bone... and without their business, they don't survive. It's an entirely other discussion though, but at some point I think North Americans really do need to reassess prices vs the living wages/conditions of your typical chinese factory worker (and yes, I'm a total hypocrite in this regard, but I want my cheap toys as well after all).

And as I said before, the 10,000 is a REALLY ARBITRARY number I pulled out of the air and doesn't reflect any kind of genuine production reality... and still extremely low when it comes to manufacturing. The scale of production is much more than 1/10th for that gulf of production number and price point... there are likely much much more vaders out there than that.

I totally "get" why folks are upset that they can't afford things they want, but this wouldn't exist if the market wasn't there for it, and again, likely wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that high price point. It's not just Gentle Giant... it's Diamond retailers that carry this product as well... in fact it's an eco-system of the license holder (in this case Fox), factories manufacturing, the toy company itself (in this case Gentle Giant), the distributor (Diamond seems most predominant here), and the Retailers themselves getting a piece of the "action" (figure) and the final consumer who wants it and will pay through the nose for it.

I'm amazed at how many comic book stores now have to make their rent on the of the kind of products that Sideshow or Gentle Giant sells... as a niche that Walmart doesn't touch. I have retailer friends that say they would LOVE to just push purely comics, but their margins on single issues of comics is a dollar or two and imagine the quantities they need to sell of those to make rent, versus the fifty or a hundred bucks they would make selling a statue to a single customer. I don't consider that greed... it's just how they are surviving in the current retail climate. They depend on that single high end consumer to pre-order and then buy that statue or they go out of business. Particularly as digital becomes more firmly entrenched across time.

[samurainoir]

And this is exactly how I feel about it all.

Emphasis on "Feel"... I get that. I'm not Gentle Giant's target demographic either, and wish I had money to throw around on this stuff too, but i think it's obvious that we are not the customers that Gentle Giant is seeking. Their version of a happy customer is one that is willing to pay $500, gets it in the mail and is overjoyed to stick it in their glass display case. Witness my brother who has no mortgage or family to support... happily tossing his disposable income at Hot Toys and statues that come in the mail every other day without thought or care.

Keep in mind that there are so many factors that you and I are not privy to.

At the end of the day we "feel" that they are being greedy without knowing how it all works on the back end where the elves work their magic. That's human nature as well, I understand, but I "feel" differently once I start to peak behind the curtain.

What's Fox's cut for licensing out the Alien and how much product does that spread across... what's Sigourney's cut for finally licensing out her image to make the upcoming Ripley Statue. Sure it's just hunks of plastic... but look at how much plastic! What's the quality of the plastic they use? How much does the tooling cost for each of those large pieces vs how many they are making? What do the factories make off of this? What's the shipping on thousands of those huge boxes across the ocean? What does Gentle Giant make out of this? What is their overhead in terms of employees that get this to market, or even rent for their offices and warehouse, or fulfillment service off their website (if it's in house or farmed out)? What do the distributers make off of this? How much does the shipping cost to get it from the distributer to individual independently owned stores? What do the retailers make off of this? Are they ALL being "greedy"?

I think it's much more complex, but that's my "feeling" as well because I don't have any kind of hard numbers. This is all speculation on all our parts from the outside trying to catch a glimpse inside... whether we think them driven by greed or not.

All I know is that of the folks that I've met or encountered who are toiling in the field of collectible toys for adults, I've yet to meet one that doesn't do it out of some form of love. But in order to survive and thrive and grow they also need to figure out the bottom line and margins that will work for their individual models of business. If the Market doesn't sustain, then Gentle Giant will go out of business. I guess we'll see how well the Alien sells... maybe they lose their shirts eventually or maybe next year we'll see an even bigger Alien Queen scaled to this figure that costs twice as much! Who knows?

[enyawd72]

Hasbro has GIANT overall mass quantities and scale of production and is able to squeeze factories using this leverage. It's not just the amount of giant Vaders they make... it's the amount of EVERYTHING Hasbro makes. They have Walmart and other mass market retail outlets to squeeze factories on price points. I've got an uncle that runs electronics factories in China that has been telling me how ruthless the American big boxes have been on their margins because their scales and demand can cut them down to the bone... and without their business, they don't survive. It's an entirely other discussion though, but at some point I think North Americans really do need to reassess prices vs the living wages/conditions of your typical chinese factory worker (and yes, I'm a total hypocrite in this regard, but I want my cheap toys as well after all).

And as I said before, the 10,000 is a REALLY ARBITRARY number I pulled out of the air and doesn't reflect any kind of genuine production reality... and still extremely low when it comes to manufacturing. The scale of production is much more than 1/10th for that gulf of production number and price point... there are likely much much more vaders out there than that.

I totally "get" why folks are upset that they can't afford things they want, but this wouldn't exist if the market wasn't there for it, and again, likely wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that high price point. It's not just Gentle Giant... it's Diamond retailers that carry this product as well... in fact it's an eco-system of the factories manufacturing, the toy company itself (in this case Gentle Giant), the distributor (Diamond seems most predominant here), and the Retailers themselves getting a piece of the "action" (figure) and the final consumer who wants it and will pay through the nose for it.

I'm amazed at how many comic book stores now have to make their rent on the of the kind of products that Sideshow or Gentle Giant sells... as a niche that Walmart doesn't touch. I have retailer friends that say they would LOVE to just push purely comics, but their margins on single issues of comics is a dollar or two and imagine the quantities they need to sell of those to make rent, versus the fifty or a hundred bucks they would make selling a statue to a single customer. I don't consider that greed... it's just how they are surviving in the current retail climate. They depend on that single high end consumer to pre-order and then buy that statue.

And I agree with you when we're talking statues. I just paid a little over $200 for a fully hand painted Bowen Red Skull statue with an edition size of only 600. That's a small production run and very labor intensive due to all the hand painting. An oversized hunk of all black plastic which I'm sure will be made in quantities greater than 600 pcs is in no way, shape or form worth even close to $450. Gentle Giant could cut that price in half without even blinking and still make a huge profit.

[samurainoir]

And I agree with you when we're talking statues. I just paid a little over $200 for a fully hand painted Bowen Red Skull statue with an edition size of only 600. That's a small production run and very labor intensive due to all the hand painting. An oversized hunk of all black plastic which I'm sure will be made in quantities greater than 600 pcs is in no way, shape or form worth even close to $450. Gentle Giant could cut that price in half without even blinking and still make a huge profit.

^^^
but that's pure speculation right? We don't know how much it costs or the overhead involved. It takes the same amount of infrastructure to bring the Alien to market as the that statue. What does the hand-casting process cost for statues vs manufacturing those big steel injection molds and firing up all the machinery for all the individual pieces that comprise the Alien... how many individual large molds spread their cost across the limited production run?

And believe me, if they are both manufactured in china, hand painting is labour intensive, but they are not necessarily paying them that much more than the folks hand-assembling the pieces of the Big Chap Alien. Human labour is actually the cheapest portion of the manufacturing process.

[samurainoir]

and not having any hard facts or real numbers to back up anything I'm saying, I'll be the first to admit that I could be completely wrong with my speculation, and that it's entirely within the realm of possibility that Gentle Giant's owners and staff are in fact laughing their asses off at the folly of collectors, and spending the afternoon swimming around in their giant bin of money.

[Werewolf]

Sorry, but that $450 price tag is still nothing but pure greed on GG's part.

I feel the same about the Jumbo Wampa.

The regular jumbo figures retail for $80 (and you usually can get them around $60 when they are first released). But the Wampa is bigger and should be more and I would have happily paid twice as much. But the Wampa isn't twice as much or even three times as much. At $400 it's five times higher. I like the Jumbos but they aren't high end collectibles. They are digital blow ups of simple 5 POA figures with very few paint aps made out of hollow soft vinyl. Again, I would have paid twice as much. Maybe even as high as $200 just for the novelty of having a huge Kenner Wampa. But $400? That's not gonna happen.

[rche]

Wait til they do the Rancor.

[samurainoir]

Not saying I like the high price point either, but I'm trying to understand it rather than join in on "feeling" about it. From what I can grasp, there are so many other factors at work that it can't be assumed that it scales into a simplistic matter of "it's twice the size thus it must be twice the price".

At the higher price point, it's doubtful that they are making (or were expecting to sell) as many Wampas as they are the 12" figures right? Again spread that lower number out across the same (or higher) tooling and production costs. If they are making five time more 12" figures than Wampas, or whatever, that can have an impact on why you are paying five times more. Have they announced production numbers on Wampas compared to 12" figures?

Also larger inventory, bigger costs as well... you sell less items at a higher price point, you have much lower shipping, warehousing, inventory tracking/management headaches to deal with as well. Smaller companies (Not Hasbro) often don't have the staff and infrastructure to handle say 100,000 units of an item vs. 10,000 units (again no one take these numbers as gospel, they are simply ones I randomly conjured out of thin air).

How big a box will the Wampa be compared to the carded figures? How does that factor into your shipping costs... again across the Ocean, over to the various warehouses and to the individual retailers down the food chain. I know the statues costs an arm and a leg for my retailer friends to receive them via courier or whatever shipping company they use. The bigger the box, the more expensive, and that cost factors into the retail price tag, at least when it comes to the comic book and collectible brick and mortar stores. Anyone know how much shipping costs directly from Gentle Giant? What are their ratios in terms of inventory sold direct to consumer vs retail partners like Entertainment Earth/Big Bad Toystore, and Diamond distribution accounts?

Size must be a huge factor here as you get larger and larger scaled up. How big will that box be on the 24" Alien?

Here's the price point on other Gentle Giant product tipping in at 18" (and I'm assuming not licensed characters?).

Price: $668.99

http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GE80361&id=ME-002202116

Price: $599.99

http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GE80360&id=ME-002202116

[samurainoir]

Wait til they do the Rancor.

I'm sure a Dewback or Tauntaun can't be far behind as well. I'll be out in the snow along with the other tattered urchins with our noses pressed up against the glass on this one as well.