Question about Return of the Jedi

[Mikey]

A lot of people don't know this.....
Spaceballs was actually written by George Lucas in 1973.
After Lucas reworked it into Star Wars in '74.... He sold the original script to Mel Brooks in '86.

[huedell]

A lot of people don't know this.....
Spaceballs was actually written by George Lucas in 1973.
After Lucas reworked it into Star Wars in '74.... He sold the original script to Mel Brooks in '86.

I'd like to note something...

I don't really mind one way or another that you're
(as I said it) "spreading misinformation" I mean, why should I care...
its not MY franchise (and why should LUCAS care---he's got his billion bucks)

I just found it ironic that you & Dave were complaining about Lucas rewriting
"real" history----while you were guilty of not only doing that---
but by taking facts about the making of STAR WARS that I took
to this arena to discuss and threw 'em away as if everybody
was in on a "make Lucas look good" conspiracy

I took it personal---am I crazy for that? Maybe. Just thought
you and Dave would appreciate it...guess I was wrong.
(the COPS thing was funny...especialy out of context...I laughed)

I'd also like to note one more significant thing about what you
said about FETT'S STORY being changed inbetween the time
of ESB and AOTC...well, there's no reason for me to think that
that wasn't a possibility....its quite possible that LUCAS blended the "clone"
and "Fett" aspect into one story because, frankly, it seems
like a logical choice that I haven't heard any thing to contradict
from anyone

Of course anything else you said in that same post is already disproven
through countless interviews---another thing Mike (and all)---
that you have to understand is that revealing all these
surprise "family matters" as SURPRISES was key to LUKE'S STORY'S
success, so it just stands to reason that LUCAS would keep them
as underwraps as possible, until the last possible moment---that'd
take a lot of the "heat" off of what went on regarding them pre ESB/ROTJ
contained in a very small circle of people & sources

[The Toyroom]

The fact that you and toyroom over here want to make it out like I'm in the wrong for trying to shed some some light
to the ignorant (namely YOU and anyone else that thumbs
their noses at facts)...well, that's your perogative...

You call it "drama'---I call it "patience" beacuse I
could've easily just dropped it instead of bringing facts to the table
---facts that were gonna be thrown away anyway----oh well

Hugh, I never said one way or another that you were wrong (although it does seem that you always have to be right)...I have no opinion either way on the topic other than what I stated...typical Huedell drama. Lighten up willya?

[huedell]

Hugh, I never said one way or another that you were wrong (although it does seem that you always have to be right)...I have no opinion either way on the topic other than what I stated...typical Huedell drama. Lighten up willya?

I see what you're saying. (I never thought you were arguing what I was saying
regarding SW, only calling my "drama" not worth your time
---i.e. "stayed too long"---instead of just enjoying it!)

If I say, I'll "lighten up" right now can I get irritated 5 minutes from now
all over again???

[Vortigern99]

I post the following with no ill intent or hidden agenda, as an ardent fan and admirer of George Lucas and STAR WARS. I post only what I believe to be the facts through years of attention and research into this matter; if I slip up in any regard I ask your forgiveness -- and your prompt correction.

There is some indication that Lucas is either mistaken about the real origins of Darth Vader, or he is deliberately obfuscating the facts in order to present a more cohesive version of the development of the Saga. The early drafts of the original 1977 film (now called Episode IV -- 'A New Hope') show us that Darth Vader and Luke's father were two distinct individuals, existing at the same time in different locations, both with lines of dialogue and totally different purposes in the plot. This remains the case through the various treatments and the first and second draft. The third draft is problematic because it's more like the filmed version, with Kenobi talking about Luke's deceased dad rather than the audience actually seeing the character on-screen, but Luke also has his own memories of his father as a normal, loving guy who could not be Darth Vader. The fourth and fourth revised drafts are the filmed versions of the script, so all we have to go one is Kenobi's "falsehood" to Luke about Vader betraying and murdering his father. If Lucas intended to combine the two characters at this point, he didn't tell anyone about it or make any notes about it, or write it down in any way that has been published or made available in any published work.

The first time the Vader-as-father subplot was written down was the draft of 'The Empire Strikes Back' written by Lawrence Kasdan in April, 1978 -- almost a year after the release of the original film. This does not mean Kasdan came up with the idea; the script derived from story meetings that took place in early 1978 between Lucas, Irvin Kershner the director of ESB, and Kasdan. (Leigh Brackett, though credited with a contribution to the screenplay, only wrote an early, unused draft of "STAR WARS II", before passing away. Her draft tellingly featured the benevolent ghost of Luke's father speaking to his son. Almost nothing of this draft remains.)

There are other factors pointing to the idea that Vader-as-father was not a facet of Lucas' original conception of the story, despite what the author/director has said in interviews in the last ten years or so. One of these is an interview with Lucas himself in 1977, when he described the broad strokes of the 'Jedi purge' perpetrated by Vader. In this account, Lucas reveals that Luke's father, whom he names 'Anakin', survived the Jedi purge, only to be later betrayed and killed by Vader, who is already a mechanical man. It could be argued that Lucas was intentionally misleading the public so as to spring the "surprise" on them in ESB; but if that's the case, if Lucas obfuscated facts about the Saga back then, why would it be so hard to believe that he's obfuscating the facts now? He's either simply mistaken, and innocently misremembering the facts, or he's deliberately revising film and literary history in order to present his work in a better, more cohesive light.

As I said earlier, I think such an effort is unnecessary. The creative process is one of constant revision and development, and requires no false perception by the public indicating otherwise, in order to be considered valid or important or artful.

Regarding Leia, again the filmmakers have gone back and forth, at first admitting that this was not part of the original plan, and that they took a convenient opportunity to tie up loose ends by making her Luke's sister and "the Other" spoken of by Yoda in ESB. In recent years Lucas has backtracked on this score, and now maintains it was his idea all along. The most damning indication that it was an on-the-fly, last-minute retcon is that in the original fourth draft of the 1977 film -- the shooting script of the movie -- Leia's age is given as 16 and Luke's is 19.

If anyone is interested in further reading about the origins of Star Wars, which is still hotly debated on the discussion boards I help moderate at TheForce.Net - Your Daily Dose of Star Wars, I recommend checking out a full-length e-book, The Secret History of Star Wars, at The Secret History of Star Wars . It's well researched if occasionally critical, and employs alot of interviews and articles Lucasfilm will not "own up to". Though I did not help write the book in any way, I am listed (as Noah Henson) as the originator of the observation, based on the early drafts, that Luke's dad and Vader were not intended to be the same character until well into the development of Star Wars.

[huedell]

Vortigern wrote:

I post the following with no ill intent or hidden agenda, as an ardent fan and admirer of George Lucas and STAR WARS. I post only what I believe to be the facts through years of attention and research into this matter; if I slip up in any regard I ask your forgiveness -- and your prompt correction.

Same goes for me...all respect...word to your mother and, so on

Now onto the words

Your post, informative as it was doesn't really give new information
much more than I already said...especially regarding disproving the
VADER/LEIA stuff specifically

Firstly,
Lucas' early drafts on STAR WARS show a GAZILLION things that weren't
part of the final shooting script.

In truth Lucas loved the idea of making a FLASH GORDON-like serial, but
knew to make his special, he'd have to WORK real hard at a layered myth
of a script to make it the best it could be---something he'd have to do some
good research on------and in the process of perfecting a really cool story with
alotta highly surprising twists, he changed things constantly...as we know him to do

THAT's the nature of writing scripts...especially GOOD ones.

So there's that...

Plus---take note of what I previously posted:

that you have to understand is that revealing all these
surprise "family matters" as SURPRISES was key to LUKE'S STORY'S
success, so it just stands to reason that LUCAS would keep them
as underwraps as possible, until the last possible moment---that'd
take a lot of the "heat" off of what went on regarding them pre ESB/ROTJ
contained in a very small circle of people & sources

This is dead on OBVIOUS regarding the FATHER aspect.

Just listen to the double-talking jive OWEN and BEN give to Luke
regarding VADER/ANAKIN---if the "FATHER" thing wasn't set in
stone---it sure was being considered---PLUS as you explained-
--they left NOTHING to chance and REMOVED any indication that
they were definitely TWO people in the movie....because good chances
were ---they weren't

Anything that remained --that hinted they were TWO people
(even tho' ANAKIN & VADER were likely to be ONE person)
was done for two reasons---one, as a red herring that'd
throw audiences off the scent and build some good drama
between LUKE and DARTH (and OBI and DARTH)
plus---IF NEW HOPE woulda been the LAST SW film---well,
everything woulda been wrapped up neatly enough without
actually KILLING Vader at the end of the film.

Now, the sister aspect? Same deal.
Who ELSE would have been the "other" anyway

[jwyblejr]

Unless Lucas went back to his original idea and gave Luke a brother. Although where he was hiding all of that time would be anyone's guess.

[grayhank]

I don't know if this helps but upon looking through the recent book by Steve Sansweet - The Star Wars Vault - there is a reproduction handwritten draft by Lucas for the Empire Strikes Back. It is dated 11/28/77. That was when he began writing the sequel. This was clearly after the release of Star Wars. So whether he had planned the sequel or not is debatable but he didn't start writing it until after Star Wars.

An excerpt from Sansweet's book:

"Lucas, physically and mentally exhausted from his four year writing and directing ordeal, decided to farm out both [writing and directing] for Empire. He wrote a detailed story treatment, but hired Leigh Brackett, a noted fantasy and science fiction author, to write the screenplay; she died of cancer just after handing in a first draft. The draft didn't work for Lucas, so he wrote a second draft and then recruited writer Lawrence Kasdan (with whom he'd been working on the screenplay for Raiders of the Lost Ark) to polish it." Pg.52

[huedell]

I don't know if this helps but upon looking through the recent book by Steve Sansweet - The Star Wars Vault - there is a reproduction handwritten draft by Lucas for the Empire Strikes Back. It is dated 11/28/77. That was when he began writing the sequel. This was clearly after the release of Star Wars. So whether he had planned the sequel or not is debatable but he didn't start writing it until after Star Wars.

An excerpt from Sansweet's book:

"Lucas, physically and mentally exhausted from his four year writing and directing ordeal, decided to farm out both [writing and directing] for Empire. He wrote a detailed story treatment, but hired Leigh Brackett, a noted fantasy and science fiction author, to write the screenplay; she died of cancer just after handing in a first draft. The draft didn't work for Lucas, so he wrote a second draft and then recruited writer Lawrence Kasdan (with whom he'd been working on the screenplay for Raiders of the Lost Ark) to polish it." Pg.52

That has always been the story...and its a true story...but its a
condensed story

After alotta wacky script drafts with plots not much resembling the
movies we came to know Lucas wrote LUKES STORY and eventually
(as he was writing yet ANOTHER rewrite---one closer
to the movies we know) saw that it was too long for
ONE 2 hr. movie (this story concluded with DARTH turning on
the EMPEROR after a final battle over a Death Star type space station)
This was even before any "close to the real story" drafts
scripts were shared with anyone else.
Indeed, once Lucas KNEW there were gonna be
THREE 2 hr. movies and got the idea that
DARTH may be LUKE's father and that LEIA may be
LUKE's sister...and that these CRUCIAL SURPRISE plot
points were gonna be in movies released a long time
after NEW HOPE----well, he kept his great secret(s) to
himself---the future of his STAR WARS project depended
on not ruining those surprises

As mentioned in previous posts---Lucas ALSO wasn't
sure if STAR WARS (NEW HOPE) was going to be the first &
LAST SW movie ever made, so he tried to make SW a self-contained
movie by tacking the DS Battle at the end of ACT ONE of LUKE'S STORY
(a 6 hr. project now turned into a 2hr. project for the time being)
and not touching upon Luke's definitive father story or siblings in ACT ONE
--ACT ONE now being a full 2 hr. movie "A NEW HOPE"

[Bo8a_Fett]

...are we there yet?

[huedell]

Unless Lucas went back to his original idea and gave Luke a brother. Although where he was hiding all of that time would be
anyone's guess.

Interesting---a brother Han Skywalker? Ha!
Talk about sibling rivalry----

Seriously though---quite a bit a foreshadowing
in EMPIRE what with the "FORCE COMMUNICATION"
between LUKE & LEIA at the end.

One great thing for the "doubting Thomases" here would be
to ask KASDAN and get HIS definitive answer on the definitve subtext
in that scene (and the "there is another" scene)

Personally, I'm going off what Lucas/history has said...

..and more importantly (to me)...the "what the heck else could
those things be hinting at?" theory

I'll also concede that LUCAS was leaving the idea open in case
he decided to go the other way---a less incestual (i.e. "safer"
and thus, a possibly more marketable) way.

In fact, Lucas HAD to leave it open as FORD was threatening
to leave the franchise if he didn't have script approval,
& certain "other" perks...etc. (Ford was the only one who didn't
sign a 3 picture deal) FORD was close to forcing Lucas to
KILL OFF HAN ----and that would've (most likely) forced Lucas to
pair LUKE up with LEIA romantically in the third movie

[Dave Mc]

Ahh Hugh, you make it too easy. I've been working on you for years but you just don't get it. You think I have some dislike for you and some personal vendetta. Far from the truth, I kind of get a kick out of you and I love your passion for customs. However, you get so wound and intense over any of these little debates, so focused on trying to swing others to your point of view and so unwilling to concede any points or issues that it's hard for a guy like me not to "poke the bear" now and again and watch him spin.

I don't know the facts, you've probably stated many things that are true. Probably stated many things that are myth. My personal opinions are the same as originally stated, I don't think as much of it was planned as Lucas now states. However, I'm not so convinced I'm right that I couldn't be easily swayed. However, you get so intense over trying to convince, that's it's too hard to resist playing the other side hard core just to watch you snap. From our first CTVT debate to this current one, and every debate you've had with any member in between, it's the same thing. You discredit yourself by taking it all too seriously and getting all worked up. It kind of becomes a game you let yourself fall victim too. People stop listening to what you say and just start watching the show.

Back off on the coffee or something man, but put it in perspective. LIGHTEN UP! Sometimes you're wrong, consider that. Sometimes you are right but can't convince the other side of it. No big deal, it's not worth getting yourself all lathered up about. You can never see when someone is actually debating you, or when someone is just pushing your buttons. I admit, it's not a nice thing to do, but sometimes it's just hard to resist.

[huedell]

Don't know EXACTLY what to say Dave---

I hear ya--you have fun on message boards, egging people on...

...guess its kinda the same reason I pro-actively chime in on threads where
I know I'll have tough opposition on certain subject matter (?)
(altho' I always have a sincere passion for what I'm saying--
-and I don't say it just to "say it" or "wind people up")

--I don't know if you can tell from my reply posts--
-but I try to temper each of my irritated reactions with
something to balance it----to bring some additional logic
to the thread subject or whatever.

Is it a lot of "drama", or whatever? Apparently so.
However, to me, my passionate insights are straight-up "me"

You just continuing on doing what you're doing for posts is your business
(right or wrong, you seem okay enough)...
and, myself, I'd prefer continuing doing what I'm doing--- which is
certainly not being a "troll"....that term doesn't jive with me, because its
just not true...

---but we all know how SUSPECT the "truth" is around here

...ahem...

regarding the STAR WARS stuff ...I've learned a couplea things here---
and hopefully you & others have to...that's about it

[Vortigern99]

Huedell, I think you've missed my point. I wholly appreciate the vagaries of the creative process, and as an artist and writer I fully understand the surprisng twists and turns a story or a piece of artwork can take, seemingly of its own volition. I have no problem with the idea that Vader and Luke's father were originally two distinct characters, then merged at some point in the development of the Saga -- probably, as I've shown, in early 1978. In fact, I think it's a stroke of genius. The impact that revelation had on me as a young man is indescribably profound.

The problem -- and the reason for this discussion -- arises when Mr. Lucas asserts, as he has done for many years now, that "Vader and Anakin were always one character" and that "STAR WAR was always about this monster villain who turns out to be the hero's father". (These are almost direct quotes of what Lucas has said time and again; I'm only paraphrasing the order of the wording.) These statements are demonstrably untrue. Thus, Lucas is either innocently mistaken about the origins of his own story -- perhaps he simply has a poor memory -- or he is deliberately obfuscating the truth in order to lend more credence or validity to his work.

Vortigern wrote:


Same goes for me...all respect...word to your mother and, so on

Now onto the words

Your post, informative as it was doesn't really give new information
much more than I already said...especially regarding disproving the
VADER/LEIA stuff specifically

Firstly,
Lucas' early drafts on STAR WARS show a GAZILLION things that weren't
part of the final shooting script.

In truth Lucas loved the idea of making a FLASH GORDON-like serial, but
knew to make his special, he'd have to WORK real hard at a layered myth
of a script to make it the best it could be---something he'd have to do some
good research on------and in the process of perfecting a really cool story with
alotta highly surprising twists, he changed things constantly...as we know him to do

THAT's the nature of writing scripts...especially GOOD ones.

So there's that...

Plus---take note of what I previously posted:


This is dead on OBVIOUS regarding the FATHER aspect.

Just listen to the double-talking jive OWEN and BEN give to Luke
regarding VADER/ANAKIN---if the "FATHER" thing wasn't set in
stone---it sure was being considered---PLUS as you explained-
--they left NOTHING to chance and REMOVED any indication that
they were definitely TWO people in the movie....because good chances
were ---they weren't

Anything that remained --that hinted they were TWO people
(even tho' ANAKIN & VADER were likely to be ONE person)
was done for two reasons---one, as a red herring that'd
throw audiences off the scent and build some good drama
between LUKE and DARTH (and OBI and DARTH)
plus---IF NEW HOPE woulda been the LAST SW film---well,
everything woulda been wrapped up neatly enough without
actually KILLING Vader at the end of the film.

Now, the sister aspect? Same deal.
Who ELSE would have been the "other" anyway

[huedell]

Vortigern---its not so much that "I missed your point" as
I guess I just was addressing YOUR points as if
I was moreso talking to some of the others that have posted
in this thread ---as, at some times I thought you
were doing something strange by seemingly pressing
points which I felt like we were long past realizing
and by doing that, contributing to some misundersandings
regarding issues that we WEREN'T "past realizing"
and giving others on this thread fodder for complicating
some points of my own I was trying to make...

(The most apparent point being the obvious thing of
VADER AS LUKE'S FATHER coming into play VERY late
in the game...I thought we settled that early on
in the thread)

I realize the above explanation is a bit tricky to decipher
---but re-read it a few times and you may get what I'm
trying to say

Regardless---I think I know what you're getting at with your posts
----especialy after skimming thru your great book