Back to the Future: Just how Inbred were the McFly's?

[darklord1967]

Of course some time travel stories posit that the time traveler is somehow "outside" the timestream, and can therefore remember his/her original history. Chris

This is a vaild theory, I suppose. After all, no one (that we know of) has ever traveled through time, and/or observed any changes to their own remembered history.

The trouble is that in the Back To the Future saga, so many of these timeline changes occur in "real time" (via "ripple effect") inside the timestream.

Typically, many of these changes happen when the time-traveller is no longer outside the timestream (as they would be during an actual time trip). Instead, the changes occur when the traveler is already within the timestream, occupying the time period he is visiting.

In the Back To The Future Saga, the plot device of a changing newspaper headline or photograph (in the possession of the time travel) is used to illustrate these real-time ripple-effect changes.

The problem is, these newspapers and photos represent a different (parallel) timeline and THEY SHOULD NOT CHANGE (just like Marty's memories of that timeline did not change)

However, if the specific events of a timeline can be "erased" and / or 're-written", and if, through "ripple effect", a time-traveler can witness these changes real time in a photo or a newspaper, then that time-traveler's memories (logically) should also be re-written.

[UnderdogDJLSW]

25 years and I never noticed that twin pines mall becomes lone pine mall. And I have the trilogy on DVD.

[darklord1967]

25 years and I never noticed that twin pines mall becomes lone pine mall. And I have the trilogy on DVD.

Yeah. It's a throw-away detail (like many) in the series. Blink and you miss it.

But the difference in the name of the mall makes sense:

Right after Doc Brown demonstrates the Delorean Time machine for Marty, he mentions that all of the land currently occupied by the mall was owned by "old man Peabody" 30 years before... and that he had a crazy idea about breeding pine trees.

When Marty accidentally launches himself into 1955 and meets old man Peabody, he runs over one of two planted pine trees when making his frantic getaway from the rifle-toting old dude.

So it's pretty easy to see that had Marty NOT made that time trip and accidentally killed that pine tree, then TWO of them would have grown and thrived. Years later, when Peabody sold his land to developers looking to build the mall, the twin pine trees would have been uprooted and possibly re-located. In honor of the trees, the mall was named "Twin Pine".

This is the un-disturbed reality timeline seen at the beginning of BTTF.

But Marty disturbs this reality by accidentally killing one of the pine trees in the past, so the future mall gets named "Lone Pine" mall in the parallel reality.

Now, even the name "Lone Pine" suggests the past presence of the other tree destroyed by Marty. You see, had there been just one tree all along, then the mall would likely have been named "Pine Mall" or "Pine Tree Mall".

"Lone Pine" suggests that there was once two trees, and one of them was killed... leaving the other aLONE.

The interesting thing is BOTH of these parallel realities share a single common past right up until the early dawn hours of November 5th 1955 (when 1985 time traveler Marty arrives, crashes into the Peabody farm, is mistaken for a space alien, and kills the Pine Tree as he makes his getaway).

Marty's very arrival in that time period is the point where the timeline "branched off" into an "alternate one" (the "Lone Pine" reality).

[darklord1967]

25 years and I never noticed that twin pines mall becomes lone pine mall. And I have the trilogy on DVD.

Here's some other fun things to watch out for:

PART I

1) Doc Brown's amplifier at the beginning of the film is labeled CRM 114. This is an homage to the message decoder aboard the plane in Dr. Stangelove and the Jupiter Explorer in 2001: A Space Odyssey.


2) During the scene where Marty's band auditions for the school dance, that's 1980's pop singer Huey Lewis who is part of the judge committee that rejects them. Lewis's song "Power of Love" is also the song used throughout the movie.

3) Bill Zane (of Titanic and The Phantom) plays one of Biff's 1955 goon squad.


PART II


4) In 2015, when Marty sees the Jaws 19 title on the movie marquee Directed by Max Speilberg, that was a reference to Executive Producer Steven Spielberg's son.

5) There's a Roger Rabbit plush toy in the window of the antique shop where Marty gets the Sports almanac. Robert Zemeckis directed "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" as well as the entire BTTF series.

6) One of the kids unimpressed by Marty's skill with a gun in the video game Wild West Gunman (in the Cafe 80's) was Elijah Wood (prior to his Lord of the Rings Frodo days).

7) Jason Scott Lee is one of Griff's goon squad (prior to playing Bruce Lee in Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story).

8) Charles Fleischer (voice of Roger Rabbit) plays two roles in the Back to the Future saga: Terry the mechanic that fixes Biff's car in 1955 after the manure truck incident, and the old man in 2015 who attempts to collect donations to save the clock tower (and gives Marty the idea for betting on sporting events while already knowing the results).


PART III

9) When Marty mentions Clint Eastwood to Doc Brown back in 1955, Doc responds with "Clint who?" indicating that the actor has not yet become famous. But displayed on the wall beside them are the posters for the films Revenge of the Creature and Tarantula... two of Eastwood's early films.

10) In 1885 a billboard advertises horse trader Honest Joe Statler. In 1955 Statler motors Studebaker is seen outside a local movie theater. In 1985, Statler is a Toyota dealership.

11) As Marty and Doc stand at the rail station in front of the Hill Valley map discussing the name change of Shonnah Ravine into (the future) Clayton Ravine, Clara Clayton, the school teacher they were supposed to be there to pick up is seen waiting in the background.

[huedell]

8) Charles Fleischer (voice of Roger Rabbit) plays two roles in the Back to the Future saga: Terry the mechanic that fixes Biff's car in 1955 after the manure truck incident, and the old man in 2015 who attempts to collect donations to save the clock tower (and gives Marty the idea for betting on sporting events while already knowing the results).

Why isn't Terry and "the old man in 2015 who attempts to collect donations"
the same character? In other words: "Why isn't the old man in 2015 who
attempts to collect donations Terry"?

[samurainoir]

But the thing I enjoyed exploring the most in my paper is the question of what became of "Lone Pine Mall" Marty McFly (who is seen at the very end of Back To the Future accidentally launching himself to 1955, just as our "Twin Pines Mall" Marty did at the beginning of the film). I can tell you that his fate (as I imagine it), although it is not seen in the films, is likely not a happy one.

Twin Pines Marty saved the 1985 Yuppie parents/successful siblings future of Lone Pines Marty in 1955 as seen in Back to the Future II. Unless his interference by taking away the almanac from Bif caused yet another wildly divergent future somehow, or his subsequent adventures in the old west could probably muck things up for LPM as well (unless LPM follows the same journey to the old west).

[darklord1967]

Hmmm... good point. And according to the cast credits listing for BTTF 2 in IMDB, he is Terry! Shut my mouth!

[darklord1967]

Twin Pines Marty saved the 1985 Yuppie parents/successful siblings future of Lone Pines Marty in 1955 as seen in Back to the Future II. Unless his interference by taking away the almanac from Bif caused yet another wildly divergent future somehow, or his subsequent adventures in the old west could probably muck things up for LPM as well (unless LPM follows the same journey to the old west).

Hmm... I would respectfully disagree. The 1985 Twin Pines Marty (from Part 2) saves himself, the 1985 Twin Pines Marty (from Part 1).

Twin Pines Marty simply duplicated himself with his BTTF 2 adventure in 1955.

As evidence to support this, I would direct you to watch the parking lot scene between Marty and Lorraine (in BTTF Part 2). In this scene, the (Part 2) 1985 Twin Pines Marty overhears his teenaged mother Lorraine being scolded for drinking alcohol by the (Part 1) Twin Pines Marty.

Annoyed Lorraine responds that she will not be strict with her future kids. And when Part I Marty mutters "I'd like to have that in writting", Part 2 Marty responds quietly to himself with, "Yeah, me too".

All of this alludes to something we saw at the beginning of BTTF Part 1: Twin Pines Marty's mother Lorraine (mother A) is clearly an alcoholic. AND she mentions how much she dislikes Marty's girlfriend Jennifer for calling him and inviting him to spend the weekend with her. She says how girls in her day never did any such brazen things.

At the END of the film we meet Lorraine, the mother of alternate Lone Pine Mall Marty (mother B). She is NOT an alcoholic, she is a much more liberal (and well- adjusted) woman in a happy marriage. She tells Marty how much she LIKES Jennifer and slyly asks if the two teenagers still have plans to spend the weekend together.

Clearly, BOTH Marty's from BTTF 2's 1955 scenes come from the same alcoholic, overly pushy Mother A. They both react to mother A's (future) drinking and pushiness in the same way. This would have been highly unlikely if they both had wildly different up-bringings and different mothers (as Twin Pine and Lone Pine Martys clearly must have had)

I'm afraid that with the exception of his very brief appearance at the end of BTTF Part 1, there is no other trace of alternate Lone Pine Marty OR his Delorean time machine seen anywhere in the saga.

Lone Pine Marty must be a very different individual than the Twin Pines Marty (who's adventure we follow through three films). Consequently, it is very unlikely that they would even think alike, or do things in the same way as each other. They would have followed different journeys... even if they both shared the common accident of launching themselves to November 5th 1955.

No. Something happened to Lone Pine Marty and the car...

[jwyblejr]

When Marty took out the Pine Tree, crashed into Old Man Peabody's barn, and Peabody's son Sherman matched Marty up to a cover of his Sci-Fi magazine. All of the established plot implications and real world references were too much to take in at the time!

Sherman and Peabody. I can't believe I just put 2 and 2 together until now.

[UnderdogDJLSW]

This thread is fun! R, how do you explain Doc Brown? In Lone Pines reality he has known Lone Pines Marty since he was born, and only really knows Twin Pines Marty for a few days back in 1955. Wouldn't he be worried about the welfare of that one more so that the Mary (Twin Pines) he sees again years later? Since the photos could change in real time in the past, may be the sign to the mall and the behavior of Mary's parents, etc. are in Twin Pines reality until the second original Marty re-enters 1985 and the time-line really splits then?

[darklord1967]

This thread is fun! R, how do you explain Doc Brown? In Lone Pines reality he has known Lone Pines Marty since he was born, and only really knows Twin Pines Marty for a few days back in 1955. Wouldn't he be worried about the welfare of that one more so that the Mary (Twin Pines) he sees again years later?

Well, it's unlikely (or at the very least un-clear) that he makes such a distinction in his own mind between the two Martys. True, Lone Pines Doc Brown (with the bullet proof vest) knows Lone Pine Marty longer. But the fact is, he does owe his life to Twin Pines Marty who warned him of his 1985 assassination by Lybian terrorists back in 1955.

Additionally, once Twin Pines Marty leaves 1955 and travels back forward in time to 1985 (arriving in the alternate Lone Pines reality), the Doc Brown he meets there would likely assume him to be the Lone Pines Marty that he has known for 17 years... especially since he was un-conscious for several minutes after being shot, and did not witness (Lone Pine) Marty's time-travel departure, NOR Twin Pine Marty's arrival.

But later that very morning, after Doc drops Marty off at his house, he makes his own exploratory time trip forward in time to 2015 ("30 years... nice round number"). Doc and Marty clearly did not have much time to compare notes about each other's realities. If they had, they would likely have discovered significant differences.

And of course, the next time they see each other is later still, that same morning, when the Doc returns frantically from the future, beckoning Marty and Jennifer to join him on a trip because "...something's got to be done..." about their future kids.

Again, as they launch into the adventure (seen in BTTF Part 2), Marty and Doc have very little (if no) opportunity to compare notes about the specifics of their different realities.

Since the photos could change in real time in the past, may be the sign to the mall and the behavior of Mary's parents, etc. are in Twin Pines reality until the second original Marty re-enters 1985 and the time-line really splits then?

Well, this is the main problem of time travel as it is depicted in the Back To The Future series. For the sake of dramatic license, changes to timelines are depicted as BOTH parallel realities (where the original reality continues to exist side by side with the new one that "branches" off of it), and re-written realities (where the original reality is erased and then re-written based on the interventions of a time-traveler visiting the past and disturbing established events.

Logically, the two types of shifting realities cannot be at play here. My vote goes to parallel realities (since Marty continues to remember the details of his original Twin Pines reality, even though he now occupies the Lone Pines Reality.) This indicates their simultaneous co-existence in 4th dimensional space-time.

If Marty had a photo of the Twin Pine Mall sign with him when he travelled back in time to 1955, and if real-time photo changes represented shifts toward alternate PARALLEL REALITIES then we might see the name of the mall in the photo morph from Twin to Lone at the very moment he smashes into the single pine tree with the Delorean.

But since newspapers and photos are representatives of a particular reality ONLY among an infinite number of others (just like Marty's memories), then they should logically remain un-affected by time-travel intervention of past events.

Marty's photo of himself and his siblings slowly erasing to the point where NONE of them are in it makes no logical sense whatsoever. Why would anyone... in ANY reality... parallel OR re-written... take a photo of... an empty bush?

Do you see what I mean? This is why I am a strong proponent of the Parallell timeline concept of Time-Travel in the BTTF Saga. In fact, Doc Brown himself explained and illustrated the parallel reality concept to Marty when he attempted to explain why 1985 Hill Valley had become a virtual war zone when they returned from 2015 and arrived at this alternate / parallel 1985.

BUT... they leave Jennifer and Einstien in that horrible place, assuming that when they set the past right, horrible 1985 will transform into proper 1985 "... instantaneously transforming around Jennifer and Einstien..." This is NOT the "parallel reality" concept he outlined for Marty earlier.

[samurainoir]

If we are following the outline of how time diverges in Back to the Future II... an alternate reality was automatically created when Marty ran down the Pine Tree. Thus it would have been impossible for Marty to return to his own Twin Pines past unless he arrived prior to his previous arrival. In the 1955 of the second movie, he is in fact traveling to the time-line of Lone Pines Marty (for the first time).

[UnderdogDJLSW]

Thus it would have been impossible for Marty to return to his own Twin Pines past unless he arrived prior to his previous arrival.

Maybe no matter what happens in 1985 since the car reappears in the same point in 1955, Twin Pines Marty always takes the reality in time and space since he (presumably) was first. So the Delorean and whatever version of Marty cease to exist because Twin Pines Marty is already in that space.

Why would anyone... in ANY reality... parallel OR re-written... take a photo of... an empty bush?

Funny, I always thought that, too? Maybe if the whole photo itself started to crumble or fade, but then the point wouldn't have been driven home for the audience.

I also always wondered: if Marty misses the lightning bolt, he takes out part of downtown in 1955. Why didn't he completely crash into the boarded up stores of 1985 when he came back?

[darklord1967]

In the 1955 of the second movie, he is in fact traveling to the time-line of Lone Pines Marty (for the first time).

Yes and no. I really don't think your statement is completely accurate. You see, while he is indeed traveling to the past of Lone Pine Marty's timeline (in progress), he is also travelling to his own past. So this is NOT a first time visit.

How can this be?

Well remember: Even in the adventure seen in BTTF 1, from the moment (Twin Pines) Marty smashed that Pine tree, he created a "branch off" reality (Lone Pine). But Twin Pine Marty was occupying that alternate reality and having a 1955 adventure within it.

So all the evidence suggests that the Twin Pine Marty (of BTTF 2) visits 1955 and only sees his earlier self ... NOT an alternate self (like, say, Lone Pine Marty). There is a big difference. Both of these Martys seen in 1955 exhibit the SAME thought patterns, behaviour, and (suggested) history.

They are the same dude, from the same (Twin Pines) reality. One is just an earlier version of the other.

[darklord1967]

Maybe no matter what happens in 1985 since the car reappears in the same point in 1955, Twin Pines Marty always takes the reality in time and space since he (presumably) was first. So the Delorean and whatever version of Marty cease to exist because Twin Pines Marty is already in that space.

The evidence seen in BTTF 2 suggests something altogether different. In that film, we see that it IS possible for two time-travellers (one the later version of the other) to visit the same space and / or time period, and together influence changes to future history. One version of a person need not cease to exist merely because the other version of that same person is already occupying that space and / or time.

Through backward time-travel, people (and objects like the Delorean itself) actually duplicate in the BTTF saga. Because of this, the very real danger exists of time-paradoxes that Doc Brown keeps warning against.

Now what I believe happens is that the universe has a "self-defense" mechanism against these types of paradoxes during time travel. For example when old Jennifer (from 2015) meets her younger self (from 1985), both pass out from the shock.

I suspect the universe employed it's self-defense mechanism when both Lone Pine Marty and Twin Pines Marty attempted to visit their commonly shared 1955 past...