-
-
darklord it seems as if you're overlooking
an important part of Kenobi's character, as
established in the scene with Yoda where Kenobi desperately
utters that Luke is the Jedi's "only hope".
This is obviously a guy who would lie---or do
just about anything "underhanded" or "manipulative"
to destroy the Sith.
Ben lied to Luke to fire Luke up and/or as a preventative
measure if and when Vader revealed the truth Luke---its that simple.
How about his using of Padme to track down Anakin
at the close of Sith??? Same deal. Obi-Wan TOTALLY
manipulated Padme.
So if you (ahem) "look at it from MY point of view"
Ben's "lie" in New Hope is not only accurate---
but quite brilliantly written for such a desperate character.Last edited by huedell; Aug 17, '08, 11:36 PM."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
-
Cynical???
Ok, how about this one...
The movie sucked, end of story. Straight to the point. I will no longer say in my humble opinion...from now on, blunt to the point.
Is that better for you?
Bloody damn, now I have to agree with you on everything from now on and walk on eggshells and state my opinion Sesame Street style???
About the hermano term...Mexicans don't use that term between unrelated men, that's a Caribbean term...I feel weird when you call me hermano, lol.
If you wanna use a term of endearment with me...call me guey, lol.
Capiche?
P.S. Oh yeah, you caught me there on the humble comment, I'm far from being a humble guy, I'm not, far from it...so yeah...you got me there, lol.
Last edited by Hector; Aug 18, '08, 12:42 AM.sigpicComment
-
Well its not "better" for me. No. But I do respect your opinion even though I disagree.
Good grief. Hector, calm down. I never said you had to agree with me from now on, nor "walk on egg shells to state" your opinion.
I merely pointed out that it's a bit cynical to say something "sucked" without seeing or hearing ALL that it has to offer. That's all.
You snuck in and walked out on a movie that was only 1 and a half hours long. Clearly you didn't give it much of a chance.
But you're free to have your opinion, Hector... cynical or otherwise. No one is taking that away from you, or suggesting that you have to think like they do. I certainly didn't say or imply that.
I only maintained (and still do) that it's pretty difficult to appreciate anything if it is approached with cynicism.
STAR WARS at it's core is NOT cynical, therefore approaching it that way is a sure fire way to dislike it.
But as I said before, I was not attacking you.
We have ALL approached something with prejudice or cynicism at some point in our lives. I'm certainly no different.
However, I do have a tendency to ensure that I see and hear everything that is to be offered by a film (or work of art) before stating an opinion on it.
Clearly this is not necesary for you, and that's fine.
Fair enough. It won't happen again. My sincere apologies for offending you, or making you feel weird.Last edited by darklord1967; Aug 18, '08, 6:57 AM.I... am an action figure customizerComment
-
I'm quite relaxed. Thank you. And I certainly don't think that because I'm talking about a relatively un-important animated film that my point is any less valid.
It applies to virtually ALL human works and creations that can be observed, appreciated and critiqued.I... am an action figure customizerComment
-
Yes but he DID lie. I did not address, nor frankly even care about his motivations for doing so. The point is, he flat out LIED.
It is possible to manipulate someone with a LIE,
and it is possible to manipulate someone with THE TRUTH.
Obi-Wan chose the former.
Yes Obi-Wan manipulated Padme. But he did not LIE to her to do it.
He did NOT say, "Oh don't worry. I WON'T stow away aboard your cruiser, follow you to Mustafar, and try to kill Anakin."
He did NOT say, "Padme, please tell me where Anakin is. You see I wish to pay him a pleasent visit, give him a big hug and a kiss, and show him my latest custom MEGO Action Figure."
These would have been lies designed to manipulate her.
Instead, he told her truths that were designed to manipulate her. He explained that Anakin:
1) Had turned to the Dark Side of the Force
2) Had become Sith Lord Palpatine's new Sith apprentice after the Death of Count Dooku
3) Had killed younglings at the Jedi Temple (according to a security hologram that he SAW WITH HIS OWN EYES.)
Furthermore, when Padme looked him in the eye and asked, "You're going to kill him (Anakin) , aren't you?", Kenobi pointedly did NOT deny that that was his intention.
Instead, he justified the upcoming inevitable confrontation by saying, "He has become a very great threat."
All of these statements by Obi-Wan are TRUE... both actually and from Obi Wan's own perspective.
Therein lies the difference.
When he "manipulated" Luke in A NEW HOPE, it was with statements that he himself DID NOT BELIEVE TO BE TRUE (as evidenced by his fess-up later on in RETURN OF THE JEDI)
How so? How is a lie accurate just because the reason for telling it may be an "honorable" one?
And frankly, if we are going to get into Obi-Wan's justifications for his lie to Luke, then I can certainly make the argument that there was NOTHING honorably-intended about it at all, and that it may very well have had selfish motivations behind it (based on what we now know took place during the prequel era).I... am an action figure customizerComment
-
No apologies for making feel weird, lol.
Since you are from a Dominican background, nothing wrong with hermano from your point of view...but I would prefer if you call me guey (a more slanged version of buey)...this is a very acceptable term of endearment word from friend to friend (between beaners).
Ok how about this?
I call you hermano, and you call me guey.
How's that?
sigpicComment
-
Yes...you CAN make the argument there was nothing "honorably intended"[
How so? How is a lie accurate just because the reason for telling it may be an "honorable" one?
And frankly, if we are going to get into Obi-Wan's justifications for his lie to Luke, then I can certainly make the argument that there was NOTHING honorably-intended about it at all, and that it may very well have had selfish motivations behind it (based on what we now know took place during the prequel era).
__________________________________________________ ___
about what Kenobi did when he lied to Luke----
I know it---and Lucas knows it----but it doesn't seem
like you're okay with Lucas and I knowing that--- and being okay with that.
Kenobi isn't perfect and THAT'S what makes the "lie" so
beautifully written. ....Kenobi's trick is pretty "cheap" on his part
and so is his explanation. THAT'S human and THAT'S okay.
NONE of the Jedi are total saints.
The lie CERTAINLY isn't "accurate"-----never said it was---
and neither did Kenobi-----except from a "certain point of view"
----Kenobi wasn't stupid----he knew how flimsy that was too---
but it WAS a way of "looking at it" regardless.
Luke knew this---he didn't freak out and say "but you LIED to me Ben"
and storm off ----and he didn't do THAT because it was obvious WHY
Kenobi lied-----and he accepted it-----and, unlike you, Luke forgave
Kenobi and moved on."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
-
No, I'm perfectly fine with there being nothing honorable about his lie... so long as we don't pretend that there was anything honorable about it (as many STAR WARS fans tend to do). And I'm perfectly fine with YOU being okay with it too.
All I'm saying is, let's just call it as it is... a bald-faced LIE.
What I disagree with is labeling Kenobi's words to Luke anything other than a LIE... for whatever reason... honorable or otherwise.
Yes Kenobi WAS human, and he was no "total saint", and he was perfectly capable of telling lies.
We certainly agree there.
And it is preciesely because of those human frailties which Kenobi possessed (which include guilt, sorrow, vanity and shame) that I reject any notion of honorability or selflessness to Kenobi's lie.
I might be inclined to agree with you that the lie was "beautifully written" IF it could somehow be demonstrated that the lie still fit within a belief system that Kenobi clung to... or if it could be somehow demonstarted that those untruthful words when interpreted (figuratively OR literally) refelct the honest truth of the matter (as Kenobi saw it) and / or as it actually occurred.
However, try as you might, those things simply CANNOT be demonstrated. There is NOTHING about Kenobi's words to Luke (in A NEW HOPE) that reflect his geniune, truthful point of view on this matter, OR the events as we know them to have occured in Episodes I, II, or III.
Acutally, you DID say it was "accurate". Hence, our debate (since I disagreed that his words were even remotely accurate.) Here is YOUR quote:
As for Kenobi: You're right. He never said his words were "accurate". He simply (decietfully) represented his words as an accurate, truthful account of Anakin's fate, when he himself KNEW that it didn't happen that way.
No. It certainly wasn't his way of "looking at it". He was VERY CLEAR in RETURN OF THE JEDI as to clarifying what his way of "looking at it" actually was:
1) Anakin Skywalker was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force (Kenobi's viewpoint).
2) Anakin Skywalker ceased to be a good man and became Darth Vader. (Again. Kenobi's viewpoint)
There is NO mention here of a "murder". There IS NO CORPSE. Why? Because a "murder" did NOT occur... not in actuality, nor in Kenobi's viewpoint!
In RETURN OF THE JEDI, Kenobi DID NOT say "When that happened, the good man who was your father was "murdered"
Why not?
It was because he did NOT see that as Anakin's fate.
Okay, first: You're right. Luke didn't freak out and storm off. But his tone WAS bitter and accusatory at having been lied to so thoroughly and for so long.
Furthermore, when Obi-Wan hit him with his "certain point of view" crap nonsense expanation, Luke wasn't having any of it, not even from a spiritual standpoint, because it wasn't applicable to his initial question back on Tatooine.
His annoyed response was "A certain point of view!!???" That's a direct quote. So Kenobi's reason for lying to Luke was NOT obvious... certainly not to Luke.
With the way Luke was likely feeling at that moment (lied to and manipulated), he might just as well have added, "I didn't ask you about the state of my father's spirit! And you knew that!! I asked you how he died. You KNEW he was still alive, horribly transformed into Vader, but instead you claimed that he was "murdered" when he wasn't!!"
Second: Luke didn't "storm off", that's true. But probably not for the reason you think. After his rude, un-apologietic "Suck it up, kid. That was my P.O.V." BS, Kenobi went right into a diatribe about Luke's father Anakin... knowing that the kid, hungry for ANY details about his father's identity and history would simmer down and listen.
And that's preciesely what happened. Luke accepted the lie (and his manipulation) and forgave Kenobi, because he simply had no other choice. What was done was done. And it did NOT change the fact that Vader, Palpatine, and their Empire was evil, cruel, and had to be stopped / defeated.
But if Luke had probed deeper... if he had asked more pertinent questions about the details of Anakin's Dark Side seduction... if he had pressed Kenobi for more answers regarding his and the Jedi Council's role in Anakin's fall to the Dark Side, then he might have discovered something very ugly (and indeed far more difficult to forgive / forget).
Third: I personally have nothing to "forgive" Kenobi for. I wasn't the one who was lied to and manipulated. I simply challenge the assertion that Obi-Wan (from whichever viewpoint you care to examine) told anything even resembling the truth when he told Luke of Anakin's "murder" by Darth Vader.
Furthermore, I reject the idea that there was anything noble about his reason for lying to the kid.
As for Kenobi's reasons for lying, let's look at the historical facts as presented by the Prequel films:
In Episode I: THE PHANTOM MENACE, Kenobi is an arrogant, self-absored punk who thought of Anakin as just "another pathetic life-form" picked up by Qui Gon Jinn on Tatooine.
He spoke suspiciously of the kid right in front of him, not even caring that he was within ear-shot. Seconds later, the child approached Qui-Gon feeling hurt and rejected with, "Master Qui-Gon, I don't want to be a problem."
Of course, the Jedi Council was no better. When the kid was brought before them as a possible new padawan for Qui-Gon, they rejected him outright, and viewed him with open suspicion and hostility... especially Yoda and Mace Windu.
Only Qui-Gon believed in the boy. And naturally, Kenobi had a tumultuous relationship with his own master and likely resented Qui-Gon's affinity for the boy.
When Qui-Gon is killed in the duel with Darth Maul, Kenobi accepts Anakin as his padawan. But this is not his choice nor desire, and it's not done out of any belief or faith in Anakin's abilities. He did it as a promise to Qui-Gon as he lay dying. He took it on as a burden... and the boy was very clear on that. There was no joy at all in Kenobi's declaration to Anakin "Council have granted me permission to train you. You will be a Jedi... I promise."
Years later, in Episode II: ATTACK OF THE CLONES when the kid had grown into manhood as Kenobi's padawan, Obi-Wan, realizing that the boy had grown even more powerful in The Force than he had, responded with jealousy and put downs (Re: "You WILL learn your place, young one." "Your senses are NOT that attuned, my young apprentice." "I hate it when he does that. )
Kenobi continued to establish a relationship of strife and conflict with his padawan... similar to the one he had with his own Master Qui-Gon Jinn. It was his nature.
In addition, when Anakin revealed the deeply painful visions he was having of his mother's brutal murder, Kenobi's response was a decided LACK of concern or compassion. His response instead was to be dismissive (Re: "Dreams pass in time"). Nevermind that Skywalker may have had a deep spiritual connection to his mother.
When Anakin disobeyed Kenobi and left Naboo to go to Tatooine to rescue his mother, again, Obi-Wan's first reaction was not concern, it was irritation (Re: "What in blazes is he doing there! I told him to stay on Naboo!")
When Anakin disobeyed the Jedi Council and left Tatooine to go to Geonosis to help rescue a captured Obi-Wan, Kenobi's response was not gratitude, but irritated sarcasm (Re: "Nice job!") when Anakin and Padme were both captured and joined him in the colleseum arena to die.
And then there are the events of Episode III: REVENGE OF THE SITH. This is the episode where the jedi council attempted to use Anakin as a political pawn in their suspicions against the Supreme Chancellor. They accept his appointment to the council, but insultingly REFUSE to grant him the rank of Master...
Nevermind that he has proven himself loyal and heroically brave time and time and time again during the Clone Wars.
Nevermind his countless victories in battle on behalf of the the Republic.
Nevermind his virtually single-handed rescue of kidnapped Supreme Chancellor Palpatine from the clutches of General Grievous, and the vanquishing of Seperatist leader Count Dooku.
Nevermind the countless times he saved Obi-Wan Kenobi's life (including the time he lost an arm against Count Dooku).
NONE of that was good enough for the Jedi Council. They thanked Anakin for his efforts by continuing to be openly suspicious and hostile, toward him. (Re: Mace Windu: "I don't trust him.")
When he began to have nightmares of his wife Padme's death, and sought counsel with Yoda, he was told (once again) "Let go of your attachments." In other words, the same nebulous, insensitive "jedi-code" crap that he was fed when he sensed his mother's pending death, and arrived on Tatooine just in time for her to die in his arms.
Great. Thanks for the advice, Yoda.
And what of his fall to the Dark Side? Well, when Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin as a Sith Lord, the young jedi reacted by dutifully, and loyally informing the Jedi Council (Mace Windu) so that the man could be arrested!
Nevermind how badly they treated him in the past.
and Nevermind how WELL Palpatine had treated him.
We was still loyal to the Jedi Knights.
Don't foget: It was Palpatine who had nurtured Anakin, encouraged him, and treated him like a son over the years... made him feel useful, wanted, appreciated, and respected... everything the Jedi Council DID NOT do.
But turning-in this admitted Sith Lord monster was his duty, and it was the RIGHT THING TO DO. So Anakin tried to do it.
Naturally, Windu reacted to Skywalker's report with MORE open suspicion and hostility. He orderd the boy to stay out of this affair (Re: the arrest of Palpatine) due to his "internal confusion" and "clouded judgement".
"Clouded Judgement"??? "Confusion"??? The kid behaved EXACTLY as a loyal, brave Jedi should have when discovering the identity of the Sith Lord! He reported it!
Taking all of this into account, I see Anakin's fall to the Dark Side of the Force as a perfectly logical choice for him to have made, given the circumstances. A person can only take so much rejection and loss before they snap.
Kenobi, and the rest of the Jedi order failed miserably in arming that boy with what he needed to avoid the manipulations of Palpatine. They offered no encouragment, no praise, no gratitude for his herculean accomplishments within the order.
Instead, they offered mean-spirited rejection.
So by the time Luke Skywalker came to ask "How did my father die?" in Episode IV: A NEW HOPE, Kenobi responded not only with a flat out LIE, but he responded with a political answer.
It was likely the ONLY answer he could give and still reconcile his own guilt regarding Anakin's fall to the Dark Side of the Force.
After all, Anakin's terrible fate is not really Kenobi's fault if someone else (Darth Vader) viciously "murdered" him.
If he had told Luke the truth about Anakin's fate right there and then, then he would also have had to detail his own shortcomings and human frailties... and the role that they played in Anakin's failed training, his subsequent fall to the dark side of The Force, and his transformation into the evil Darth Vader.
But facing their own shortcomings was NOT the Jedi way. Their way was to arrogantly cling to ancient traditions and codes that ultimately played a big hand in nearly getting them wiped out forever.
It wasn't until Yoda abandoned the stilted jedi code of only training a jedi from infancy that the Empire was finally defeated.
Yoda took on the training of Luke as a young man, and in a matter of months helped him become a powerful enough Jedi to face Vader AND his Emperor, AND resurrect Anakin Skywalker's dormant good spirit.
So much for strict Jedi codes and traditions.Last edited by darklord1967; Aug 18, '08, 7:03 AM.I... am an action figure customizerComment
-
No apologies for making feel weird, lol.
Since you are from a Dominican background, nothing wrong with hermano from your point of view...but I would prefer if you call me guey (a more slanged version of buey)...this is a very acceptable term of endearment word from friend to friend (between beaners).
Ok how about this?
I call you hermano, and you call me guey.
How's that?
Sounds good herma... er... guey. Sorry. Force of habit.
I... am an action figure customizerComment
-
I am sorry Darklord. . . but you seem to be wide of the mark on a few points. Let me correct you and help you understand.
Firstly I agree completely Obi-Wan just couldn't help himself . . .poor soul. . .couldn't lie straight in bed. . . remember when he lied to those nice storm troopers with his cheap Jedi Mind Tricks. . . .FLAT OUT LIES. . . .All high and mighty. . ."These aren't the droids YOU are looking for". That Storm trooper could have got a nice pay rise and maybe a promotion out of THAT little deal. . .but no. . .Kenobi the LIAR. . .deceived him without any courtesy or a second thought.
You also seem to be under some delusion that LUKE was some kind of central character. . . when in fact. . .he is only a bit player, small fry in the grand scheme of things really. . . .why he isn't even IN THE FIRST TWO episodes AT ALL. . . and only in the 3rd for about 12 and 1/2 seconds. So whether this minor character is lied to or not is completely irrelevant. . .he is of no consequence.
You see. . .the main characters really are Obi-Wan and Anikan. . .only THEY are in all six episodes. It is actually a love story. . . that follows their whole lives and into eternity. They are both young and care free, each starting out as students under their shared Master who sadly dies. This bonds them together surely in an almost Kirk-Spock quasi love-nest story arc. . . . .the six episodes follow (as so many movies do) the path of their love,. . .sometimes tearing them apart. . . BUT FINALLY being brought together in the end - together for eternity. Is this NOT how the story and saga ends?
It is also Palpetines pandering and ego stroking that you call fathering. . . that is the SEDUCING force to the Dark side.
To be a Jedi Knight - is a spiritual commitment. . . a form of Warrior priest if you will. . . who like all priests must cast aside their own feelings, wants, desires, and exist only to serve others for the greater good.
The Jedi must not focus on self - seek praise, pandering or ego boosting steam being blown up their skirts. NO. . .the Jedi regadless of his feats. . .must be humble and learn humility. No personal gain.
Had he taken on these lessons, you see as personal attacks and shuns upon him, he would not have been seduced to the dark side. The Jedi's and council did what was best for him. SADLY the council was correct to warn against training him in the first place - his desires, wants, ego etc. . . made him unworthy to be a Jedi. . . he was too vein and this was his undoing. Had he obeyed and stayed away at the end of Ep 3 - he would not have finally fallen and killed Windu. . . .and all would have been well.
Pamper not the padawan!
I hope you have learnt a few things here. Feel free to ask me any thing else you aren't sure about though!
Last edited by AUSSIE-Rebooted-AMM; Aug 18, '08, 7:28 AM.Comment
-
Hi darklord--
-I'm on someone else's computer right now, so I can't
make a proper post---but I will say that the "accurate" issue
was a foul up on my end, as I didn't mean to use the word in such
a different way in both posts---but I think you may have still got kinda
where I was going anyway----
----speaking of which----wow----Aussie really helped me out here
because quite frankly, he eloquently typed many things I don't have the paitence to type----your posts are nice and thorough darklord---but I actually
AGREE more with Aussie's take on the Kenobi character.Last edited by huedell; Aug 18, '08, 7:49 AM."No. No no no no no no. You done got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. I think I'll scoot over here right by this winda', let this beautiful carriage rock me to sleep, and dream about how lucky I am." - Chris MannixComment
Tweet
Comment